What are definitions used to define a "stream (and river)." Use
government agency definitions first and then definitions from science
fields. Ecological definitions, physical definitions, legal
definitions and common definitions are OK. i.e. When does a stream
begin and the land form ends, on all axis. Do not confine search to
this country.

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Request for Question Clarification by czh-ga on 29 Jan 2004 15:15 PST

Hello fishhead-ga,

There are lots of definitions available to answer your question. I
want to make sure that I?m on the right track so I?d like to clarify
some points.

1) Are you only interested the definition of ?stream? as it applies to
flowing water? (You are not interested in stream as it is applied
metaphorically i.e., data stream, stream of consciousness, stream of
people, etc.)

2) Do you need separate definitions for ?river? or are you simply
using river in your question as a subset of all streams?

3) How many definitions would meet your requirements as a satisfactory answer?

4) What do you mean by ?all axis? in your question: ?When does a
stream begin and the land form ends, on all axis.?

5) Since this is a high priced question I want to make sure that I
understand the context for the information you?re looking for. The
more you can tell me about how you will use the information I gather,
the more likely that I will be able to get you exactly what you need.

I look forward to your clarification.

~ czh ~

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Request for Question Clarification by czh-ga on 30 Jan 2004 22:29 PST

Hello fishhead-ga,

I?ve continued my research and I find that there is a lot of
information about streams. Please give me the context of your question
so that I can better focus my research and give you meaningful
results.

Does you query have to do with your name? Are you particularly
interested in streams and fisheries?

Eagerly awaiting your clarification.

~ czh ~

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Clarification of Question by fishhead-ga on 02 Feb 2004 09:31 PST

CZH,
Thanks for the questions. They help me see your mind set on this question.
1. I'm only looking for "streams" as they apply to flowing water, such
as in Sacramento River or Pescadero creek.
2. "River" was used as a subset of streams.
3. How many definitions is not a good measure. A better measure would
be to determine how many agencies use a certain definition For
example, EPA, ACOE, USFWS regulations use the following definition to
describe what a steam is and its boundaries. Or the following
definition is commonly used in the fields of fluvialgeomorphology and
hydrology.
 
I would like all agencies in all states, all modern governments and
the life and physical sciences surveyed.
 
4. All axis means the side boundaries such as the extent of the bank
(how do you know you are far enough away not to be on the bank?), the
depth of the bed (such as the extent of the hyporeal zone), the width
of the bed (such as flood plain of 100 year flood, etc.), upper extent
(i.e. how high on the ridge is stream compared to swale or other
feature?). Is the riparian growth part of the stream?
5. I hope this is enough information. Please continue to ask as you
proceed. FYI, I will use this information in composing some
regulations that define a stream to determine when a project will be
in or near a stream under California law (see Section 1600 under Cal
Fish and game Code.
 
Thanks.

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Request for Question Clarification by czh-ga on 02 Feb 2004 12:56 PST

Hello fishhead-ga,

I'm afraid I have to bow out of attempting to do this research
project. Your request for "all agencies in all states, all modern
governments and
the life and physical sciences surveyed" is impossible to contemplate.
I, and most researchers, are very reluctant to take on any search
project that asks for "all" of anything since we can never be sure
that we've located every resource.

In addition, the amount of information you're looking for would
require much more effort than than I can put in for the price of this
question. I suggest that you break down this research project into
more manageable pieces so that we can help you get what you need.

Best wishes for your project.

~ czh ~

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Clarification of Question by fishhead-ga on 03 Feb 2004 08:06 PST

CZH,
This is a simple question. However, qualifications in the physical
sciences are probably needed to understand the scope of the question.
But it is not impossible. Also, the reference to "all" is a finite
question. All states in the US are known, as are all governments and
the sciences. The additional limit is the availability of information.
Unavailable information to simple inquiry is not needed.

Sorry, you are not interested.
fishhead

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Request for Question Clarification by pafalafa-ga on 03 Feb 2004 08:35 PST

Hello fishhead-ga,

Interesting sign-in name you have...and an interesting question as well.  

I am an environmental scientist with a lot of background in hydrology,
streamflow modeling, etc. and I'm familiar enough with the territory
to be able to answer your question.

However, I am not nearly as familiar with the agencies, rules,
technical materials, etc. in other countries as I am in the U.S.  Nor
do I speak any languages other than English.

I'm certainly looking to have a look at the non-US sources that are in
English, but I don't want to raise your expectations too high...I
expect the bulk of what I could tell you would be based on US
information.

Would that meet your needs?

In addition, if you could provide a bit of context for your question
-- the "why" of it, if you will -- it would help me to focus my
efforts in order to best meet your needs.

I look forward to hearing from you.  

pafalafa-ga

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Request for Question Clarification by pafalafa-ga on 03 Feb 2004 09:04 PST

Make that..."*willing* to have a look".

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Clarification of Question by fishhead-ga on 03 Feb 2004 20:07 PST

Clarification on context.

Many states have laws protecting natural resources. Most of those laws
are for protecting well defined areas of interest to the public such
as species that are declining or ecosystems begininng to fail (e.g.
wetlands). One area that incorporates both an environmental interest
and an economic interest to the public is the function of streams.
Califonia law has defined an interest in streams from the standpoint
of aquatic resources that depend upon them, and more specifically
anadroumous fish (as well as other protected species). However, Agency
regulations are deficient in defining what area of the stream is of
interest or when a stream begins or ends.  As water moves from the
ridge tops, the channel is formed at some point and the stream begins.
The transition to an area that can be called "stream" from a swale or
avalanch track is not defined. Further downstream in a main channel
the stream may braid into several channels, it may go subsurface, or
may leave its channel during high flow periods. Is the stream
considered as the area between meader belts, that portion that stays
in a defined channel, that portion with water on the surface or does
it extend to the hyporeal zone or below. Does it extend laterally to
the 100 year flood plain or farther? Is there an accepted definition
of bank or channel that confines a stream? Does an artificial levee
constrain the definition?

Agencies around the states and federal gov have had to contend with
this issue and many have codified their answers. These regulatory
treatments are important as the first consideratiopns for writting new
regulations that fit the California situation. But also important is
the treatment by the physical and life sciences that have need to
understand the transitions zone between systems. One concept with a
following is the stream corridor (meander belt and riparian) and
stream continuum (of biological change). This concept incorporates the
ecosystem function of the stream from both the laterial influences of
riparian vegetation and logitudianl influnces of grade, riparian,
temp, water Q and sediment. This science and interest resides in other
countries as well, hence the interest in those countries that have
published in English (if we cant read it, it might as well not exist).

In order to write good regulations that give information about what
should be protected, an accepted definition of a stream or stream
system is needed. There have been many attemps to pull the
publications of other scientists, agencies and governments together
and one more effort by an independent source is important to insure
that the past efforts are adequate. Hence the request.

Hope this helps.
Fishhead

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Request for Question Clarification by pafalafa-ga on 04 Feb 2004 07:21 PST

Hello again,

Thanks for your added information.  It's a big help, but I'm still
struggling a bit with how to best put some manageable boundaries on
this topic.

If you would, please have a look at this report:

http://data.labins.org/2003/SurveyData/WaterBoundary/tide/rr.pdf

Given the complex discussion of threads, median lines, channels, etc.,
what sort of information would you expect in an answer.  Would a link
to the report be sufficient?  Do you want a report summary? Or is this
type of report not on target for the question at hand?

Your perspective on this report will heop me to better understand what
it is you're looking for in an answer to this question.

It may be necessary for us to have one or two more rounds of
clarifications -- a conversation of sorts -- before I can know for
certain whether I can answer your question for you.  Please bear with
me on this.

Thanks.

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Request for Question Clarification by pafalafa-ga on 14 Feb 2004 04:25 PST

Hello again.  I was just wondering if you're still interested in an
answer to your question?  If so, any additional perspective you can
provide (per my comment, above) would be a great help.

pafalafa-ga

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Clarification of Question by fishhead-ga on 16 Feb 2004 09:57 PST

pafalafa,
Yes, I am still interested in a credible answer. So far I haven't seen
very much understanding of the question. I have seen the site you have
suggested and this site is about "water rights," not the physical
definition/description of a stream. See the California Fish and Game
Code and Title 14 or California Board of Forestry Title 14
classification/descriptions of a stream. The BOF used "water course."

For example, does the stream extend from the thalweg to the first
break in slope, the one hundred year flood plain or is it defined as a
stream corridor with some parameters?

Please do not ignore my advice to review how other governments and
sciences view the issue as law, technical description or function.
This is the most important consideration.

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Request for Question Clarification by pafalafa-ga on 16 Feb 2004 10:15 PST

Thanks for clarifying.  I'm going to pass on this one, but hopefully,
another researcher will be able to assist you.

Best of luck.

Mark Twain said whiskey was for drinking, water is for fighting.

USGS (United States Geological Service) has the reponsiblity for
defining and naming geographic features. Check the USGS site for
definitions.

For other countries, there is a counterpart to USGS. The office has a
name with Geologic, or Geographic, or Surveyor in the native language.

The way that definition is used is a function of the agency.

Where are you going with the question? Water is essential for life,
but is considered a "free" commodity. The only charges allowed are for
value added. Pumping for delivery and pressure, treating for
clarification and disease control, bottling for convenience and the
like. The claim is that there has not been a "water war" for over
4,000 years.

Adding anything to the water is generally considered "using" the
water. This includes adding heat or cold in an industrial process.
Power plants dump waste heat. The use a body of water to do this.
Removing anything from the water is also considered a "use". If a pond
is allowed to form and algae blooms to the point of removing disolved
carbon dioxide, this is considered a "use" in most places.

Agriculture use normally includes evaportion and adding pesticides.

The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has a major part in
controlling "wet lands" and other "bodies of water". The Army Corps of
Engineers, Bureau of Land Management, Forest Service and several state
agencies have jurisdiction over "water rights". The definition of
"stream" or "navigable waters" is key to the authority of each agency.

Read "Cadillac Desert" by Mark Reiser for more insight. One story is
that a large desert became navigable waters after a sharpie rode
across the desert sitting in a row boat, which in turn was sitting in
a wagon that was pulled across the desert by a team of animals that
were not fish.

"Waterhsed" is a keyword that will lead to defintions of different
size bodies of water.

Surface water and ground water may not be what the names suggest.

"Water rights" is a term used to describe the uses for a body of water.

"Riparian" is another term to describe places where water flows and
where that water influences the surrounding terrain.

I don't know of a one size fits all description or definition of
stream. The definitions I know of are all in the context of the
defining organization. Beauty is in the eye of the beeholder.
Geographical location and coding is USGS. Water rights are
complicated.

Check out Yuba County Water Agency YCWA, or California Department of
Conservation for definitions of water. Also check out Bay-Delta
Authority to get a comparison of how three different agencies define
the same bodies of water.

The offer of $200 is way low for getting a comprehensive answer. Water
lawyers in California start upwards of $300 per hour just to define
your question may take 40 hours.

The offer of $200 is way too high for steering you to agencies that
have posted defintions at their web sites.

Check out OMB circular A-16 for the requirement of US agencies to use
common definitons for geographic information.

There are "buffer zones" required to prevent bacteria from entering
"streams". Many of the "buffers" produce more pollution than they
prevent. The opposite result is based on the definitions used.

Can you be more specific on the location and the use of the water in
the stream, use of the water downstream and where the water came from
upstream?

Please see if the below links are of any use to you.

://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+stream&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8

://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=define%3A+river

-Naveen