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Subject:
Why are weathermen so often inaccurate in their predicitions
Category: Science > Earth Sciences Asked by: barrys-ga List Price: $5.00 |
Posted:
30 Jan 2004 11:06 PST
Expires: 29 Feb 2004 11:06 PST Question ID: 301857 |
If we have so much knowledge of the forces that affect planet earth, as well as the winds, currents, polar magnetic pull... why is it that meterologists are so often incorrect in their predictions? |
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Subject:
Re: Why are weathermen so often inaccurate in their predicitions
Answered By: hailstorm-ga on 30 Jan 2004 16:43 PST |
barrys, You may have heard a saying about a butterfly flapping its wings in Asia causing a hurricane in Mexico. This is an outgrowth of chaos theory, the study of the cause and effect of immensely complex systems such as the weather throughout Earth. Quite simply, there are SO many variables to the weather that even our current technology yields no better results than an educated guess, especially five days and beyond in advance, when a full analysis of the entire world's weather patterns is necessary to make an accurate local forecast. We know a lot about the large forces that effect our planet, but the cumulative effect of all of the small forces we haven't catalogued still have a great impact, and even if we could account for all of them we don't yet have the computing horsepower to take everything into account. It's entirely possible that a butterfly somewhere could flap its wings in exactly the right place and exactly the right time in such a manner that would set off a chain of events that, over a very long period of time, would cause a hurricane that could not have been started in any other way. Also, even if we could acquire ever bit of information needed to predict the weather in a fraction of a second, quantum physics states that the mere act of observing an action changes the quality of that action in some way, albeit in an extremely miniscule way. So obtaining information actually changes information, and for the extremely large quantity of data that is required for accurate weather prediction, the cumulative effect of this would significantly reduce the accuracy of the data gathered. The result of all this is that, while science can come increasingly closer to 100% accuracy in weather prediction, they will never have the ability to absolutely guarantee that you can leave the house without your umbrella. Sites cited: ------------ What is Chaos Theory? http://www.fractalfoundation.org/whatchaos.html Earth & Sky: Science Facts About Weather Forecasting http://www.earthsky.org/scienceqs/browsefaq.php?f=50 A Simple explanation of quantum mechanics and the essentials of quantum physics http://members.aol.com/jimb3d/quantum.html Google search tems used: ------------------------ why can't we predict the weather? simple explanation of quantum physics butterfly flapping wings hurricane | |
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Subject:
Re: Why are weathermen so often inaccurate in their predicitions
From: doctorscience-ga on 25 Apr 2004 08:57 PDT |
To expand upon the lack of data used in weather prediction -- the atmosphere occupies three dimenions in space, not just two. That means we need accurate data from the ground up THROUGH the atmosphere to the 'top' of the atmosphere. Unfortunately, we only have upper atmosphere data taken mostly be weather balloons, and they are only sent up every 12 hours and EVEN THEN at points that can be 100 miles apart or more, and that's in the 'data-rich' continental United States! Worse, most of our air blows in from the Pacific Ocean, the Gulf of Mexico, or Canada, and there is much more limited data coming in from those regions. It is VERY difficult to get high-density data, even during specially-designed weather research projects that are extremely expensive (in the million$). So, your researcher discussed how a butterflies wings can theoretically affect the development of a hurricane. Well, forget the stupid butterfly. How about weather systems 150 miles across, such as massive thunderstorm complexes or compact polar low pressure systems (with circular wind-flow and snow, etc.)? Those can OBVIOUSLY affect the weather, yet they slip through the grid of our weather data collection services. You can probably now imagine that any weather prediction of a non-linear (chaotic) system is actually quite amazing. You might say we're lucky to have the accuracy that we do. By the way, I find a good analogy of weather prediction is stock market prediction. Imagine if you bought Martha Stewart's company stock when it was doing quite well. You might not have been aware of one 'small' piece of data. She engaged in the illegal trade of a relatively small event of stock. However, that trade occurred in a non-linear environment. It exploded into a big problem that brought down Martha and hurt her company's stock. Well, the same can happen in weather. For example, during November a small cold 'pocket' of air could move over the warm Great Lakes, and suddenly explode into snow showers reaching as far as New York City. I hope I've clarified what is almost certainly the biggest problem in weather prediction. -anonymous, w/Master of Science degree in Meterology from Penn State University. |
Subject:
Re: Why are weathermen so often inaccurate in their predicitions
From: doctorscience-ga on 25 Apr 2004 10:16 PDT |
One other comment from me -- you had wanted an example of such a case. Well then, how about the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald, the ship immortalized in the famous song by Gordon Lightfoot (during the 1970's, I think). That ship sunk during weather that was definitely not predicted by the NWS or the Canadian weather service. The problem in that case was the 'limited' computing power of weather prediction computer systems. Let me explain how limited computing powers is dealt with and how a nasty storm that sank a ship was not even predicted... As you probably know, weather forecasts are primarily generated from computer programs that process large amounts of data through countless iterations of *incredibly* complex weather prediction programs. In order to get these forecasts out in a somewhat timely manner, these programs absolutely must take short-cuts. That is, they don't necessarily compute every single factor affecting the weather. For example, we know that ind will not blow as easily across a rough ocean as it will a smooth one. However, you can bet that factor is not built into our major weather-prediction programs because it would probably barely affect the accuracy of forecasts. That whole concept is very key to understanding the some of the design limits of computational prediction. Now, in the case of the Edmund Fitzgerald, a fundamentally well-understood phenomenon affected the weather, but it was not included in the weather prediction programs because it is usually insignificant. Get this -- we know that air pressure differentials accelerate air from high pressure to low pressure, right? That's how a fan works, every idiot knows that. Well, maybe, but during the 1970's weather prediction programs didn't include this 'obvious' effect (the 'isallobaric' wind effect). In the '70s, computer programs assumed that wind flowed roughly at a constant speed in a circular pattern around a low-pressure system (the 'geostrophic' wind). It turns out this is a good assumption in nearly all situations. That is because when wind starts to accelerate towards low pressure, the earth's rotation (and the winds momentum) cause the wind to turn (*relative* to the moving surface). After the wind turns 90 degress to the pressure gradient, it then **stops accelerating** and continues to flow at a constant speed in a balanced 'geostrophic' flow. At that point, the apparent force of the earth's rotation has negated the force of the pressure differential. The Coriolis effect is forcing the wind to the right, but the low-pressure gradient is forcing the wind to the left. Because this type of wind flow occurs during the vast majority of time, weather programs don't calculate the acceleration, they only calculate what the final velocity would be after the wind reached this equilibrium of circular flow around the low pressure. If this confuses you, then perhaps an analogy misht help. The turning wind is equivalent to a skier being accelerated by gravity down a ski slope. If he uses his skis to turn 90 degrees to the right, he'll stop accelerating and instead he will continue across the slope at a constant speed. Imagine that skiers normally did this after skiing downhill for 10 seconds, and by then the earth had rotated so they were skiing across the slope (and no longer accelerating). That analogy is like your normal wind. Now suppose someone skied down some extremely steep terrain for 10 seconds without turning (an extreme 'differential'). They would really be screaming downhill! That is kind of what happened with the wind before the Edmund Fitzgerald sank from huge waves. The wind accelerated towards the low very rapidly within only a few hours. During this brief time, the earth had barely rotated and was not altering the wind's direction by much. It certainly had not turned the wind enough to make the wind go around the low and stop accelerating. To use the skiing example, the skier had reached a very high speed very quickly before he turned. It was this phenomena that brought about some very strong winds that heralded the demise of the Edmund Fitzgerald (and a popular ballad by Gordon Lightfoot). In some ways, it's incredible to think that our computer programs didn't predict air would accelerate into a low pressure system! After all, the longer the air accelerates due to pressure, the faster it will go. Unfortunately, those weather programs disregarded the time spent accelerating before turning. They only calculated the wind speed based on fixed formula related to earth's rotation and the pressure differential. That calculation allowed for a timely forecast, but a useless one for the crew of the Edmund Fitzgerald. :-( |
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