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Q: Follow-up Question for Serenata-ga ( Answered,   0 Comments )
Subject: Follow-up Question for Serenata-ga
Category: Computers > Internet
Asked by: weddinman-ga
List Price: $10.00
Posted: 02 Feb 2004 10:46 PST
Expires: 03 Mar 2004 10:46 PST
Question ID: 302826
You helped me clean up my website January 25, 26.  I followed your
suggestions, and then added a site menu, and submitted my site,, through Google's AddURL page.  The bot
updated the listing and database for my website within about 48 hours
.. and the returns for my site on "pittsburgh wedding minister" and
"pittsburgh wedding officiant" DROPPED!

One reason this might have happened is that on the site menu, I used
"Chaplain Dan, Pittsburgh Wedding Minister" as link text for the front
page .. so each internal page was showing this as a text link.  Do you
think that could have caused more penalizing by Google?

I've changed that now on all the pages.

2 questions:

a) Can you see any other reason on my page that would cause me to
continue to be penalized by Google?
b) Since I re-submitted the page on or about January 28, when is it
save to re-submit it again?

(I guess that there is a third question above)

Thank-you again for your excellent help previously, and in all the
other related answers you have posted here in Google Answers.  I'm
trying to get my head screwed on the Google way and just work for
legitimate rankings rather than optimized rankings.
Subject: Re: Follow-up Question for Serenata-ga
Answered By: serenata-ga on 03 Feb 2004 14:30 PST
Hi again, Dan ~

First of all - don't panic!

What you are experiencing is what happens when the freshbot goes out
to a site that has been submitted via the Add:URL page or from a link
from other sites.

It may be no help, but you can read several anecdotes about this
occurrence from these threads from WebMaster World:

     * "New Website crwaled, now dropped from Index -
        What could be the reason?"

     * "Crawling and Indexing - How long time to get indexed?"

     * "Google changed my possition - Top ten is changed Just
        in week"

     * "How do i get my site back in site was taken off google
        just after florida update"

    * "Google Slow to Add New Pages - google spidering but not
       adding pages to index"

Or this article in Click Z by Shari Thurow, "Understand Search Results Pages",


The howls of those website owners on Webmaster World are real enough,
but any remedies that deviate from Google's recommendations should be
taken with a grain of salt.

I can guarantee that if Google changes its requirements for what works
best, they'll tell us about it.

Bear in mind that besides crawling your site and incorporating its
pages in its vast database across many data centers, Google is
continuously tweaking its algorithms to produce the most relevant
results in answer to a search query. It can often take as long as six
to eight weeks for everything to settle down.

Don't think you're being 'penalized' and I assure you, it isn't
personal. If you're still in Google's database - and you are - you're
not being penalized. It is usually a case of Google's determining
other sites are *more relevant* than yours.

As the site owner, you need to continuously keep in mind that the goal
is to deliver the most relevant pages in answer to a searcher's query.


Let's take your first page - index.html - and look at it in relation
to the search terms you mentioned, "pittsburgh wedding minister" and
"pittsburgh wedding officiant".

Using Search Engine Watch's keyword density analyzer, neither of those
phrases are used in the content at all. It is to your advantage to use
the terms within the content - after being sure what terms are
actually being used in searches.

The Keyword Density Analyzer is here:


And Word Tracker, which will help you determine which search terms are
actually being used, can be found here:


In addition, you will want to watch your own web stats to see which
pages are being crawled and how often. That should help you understand
how things are going from the search engine end. The rest of your
stats will help you figure out which pages are drawing your visitors
and you can 'improve' the rest of them to aid your visitors.


Lastly, remember that even if you get to the top, you are going to
have to work to stay there through presenting the most relevant
material you can for your visitors.

Are there some pages that shouldn't be there? Perhaps, but Google is
working continuously to improve its algorithms in order to present the
best and most relevant material to the searcher. It is your
responsibility to make sure you provide rthe content relevant to those
search terms. If you don't, someone else will fill those spots.


Lastly, the content - with a reminder you're designing this for your
visitors, and you need to understand what they are looking for. Your
site shouldn't be about you, it should be about them.

You might want to read some of the material on copy writing available
on either ClickZ or Jill Whalen's site, to understand how to write
copy that puts your visitor first.

Click Z is here -

Jill Whalen's High Rankings, is here -



You are not being penalized, if you were, you'd simply not be in the
index at all. It is more a case of Google's considering the other
sites ahead of yours as more relevant.

If you want to be included, you need to ensure your content is
relevant - user-friendly and crawler-friendly.

What you are experiencing is normal, and things have a tendency to
even out in a few weeks' time.

Hope this helps,

Google Answers Researcher

Request for Answer Clarification by weddinman-ga on 03 Feb 2004 18:55 PST
Forgive me.  For the first time, in all the answers I've read which
you wrote, I'm frustrated with your answer.

Perhaps I should have specified that whenever the word "wedding" or
"weddings" is added to any relevant keyword phrase, my website
disappears from the premises.  "pittsburgh officiant" and "pittsburgh
minister" bring me to the top 3.

Now, about the content being about me: in my business, brides are not
interested in considering me to officiate their wedding unless they
feel they know me and trust me.  That process has to be started on the
website.  By introducing who I am, I am addressing their primary
concern.  The bride I met with this evening stated that my website was
"perfect" and that the same person she read about on the page is the
same person she met tonight .. that is my goal and objective.  So, my
question would be, how would changing the content to address their
needs in any way change the page rankings?  Especially when it would
not provide the couples with the information they need to know in
order to consider hiring me as their officiant?

You said that "pittsburgh wedding minister/officiant" is not included
in the content.  This, "Wedding Minister/Officiant Serving Pittsburgh
and SW Pennsylvania" does not count?  I had to do a lot of editing to
reduce the number of times that "wedding" and "weddings" appear on the
page, which is one of the reasons the keyword phrase does not appear,
besides the fact that it just doesn't fit in the flow of the copy.

Sorry, but I don't even know what my question is, and I feel like I'm
arguing with you, which is not what I want to do.

I'll say this .. the returns that Google is presenting now for those
phrases are absolutely not relevant.  They are almost all directories.
 Only one local officiant's page shows up in the top 50 .. in 3rd
place right now.  So, how could the returns be relevant?  People want
to find officiants, not directories.  I realize you are not a Google
employee, so this comment isn't directed at you.  I wish I could get
it to the Google Guy.  ... there is nothing relevant about the 9 of
the top 10 returns for "pittsburgh wedding minister" and "pittsburgh
wedding officiant" being directories rather than specific websites. 
Where is there any content in any of those directories? So, what I'm
saying to a general audience, wishing that Google could hear me is:
the claim that Google is returning relevant websites is @@@@
@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@ @@@@@@@@@!

Problem is, its a free service, and none of us can figure out how to
comply with Google's attempts to return relevant websites!

Okay .. finished blowing off steam .. forgive me .. its impossible to
fight city hall or a search engine algorithm!

Clarification of Answer by serenata-ga on 03 Feb 2004 19:50 PST
Hi Dan ...

I understand your frustration. I'm sorry you weren't happy with the
answer. I'll ask the editors to remove it.


Request for Answer Clarification by weddinman-ga on 03 Feb 2004 20:48 PST
Leave it.  I've learned enough from you that you deserve to be paid.

Clarification of Answer by serenata-ga on 03 Feb 2004 21:33 PST
For what it's worth ... 

I had the chance to try the beta of MSN's new search - their own under
their own algorithms.

Unfortunately, you didn't make that one, either - and again, it has to
do with the phrase, "pittsburgh wedding officiant". Those words are
there on the page, but that phrase isn't really there for the engines
to pick up and apply.


That is definitely one thing that is missing on your page that is
present on those others.


Request for Answer Clarification by weddinman-ga on 04 Feb 2004 04:53 PST
It's there, #1 .. with the old URL .. for some reason they haven't
spidered and followed the 301 redirect to the new domain name.  I'm
also #1 with

Clarification of Answer by serenata-ga on 08 Feb 2004 02:05 PST
I can't speak for All The Web, but apparently it doesn't update as
often as Google's results are updated.

Google updates continuously, which it is the top-rated search engine.
It is not unusual to get different results an hour later. In fact, it
has happened to me often enough that I give the Google link and often
cite the time of the search, especially when I see results changing.

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