Let's face it, "nice guys" don't get the girl.  Certainly not the
"nice" ones who for whatever reason are usually classified by women as
"not interesting/fun/cool" enough to warrant attention.
 Is there any hope for a guy in that category?  What can a basically
decent guy do to make himself more interesting/fun/cool/appealing?
 I found an interesting site, www.sosuave.com, via Google Answers before,
but as helpful as it is, it doesn't really address the notion of 
the image/personality makeover a guy needs to get more interest from
women.

>> Let's face it, "nice guys" don't get the girl. 

A nice guy got this girl. In July the nice guy and I will celebrate
our 24th wedding anniversary.

It is my belief that the only area of life where "nice guys finish
last" is in bed, where a nice guy will generally let the lady finish
first. ;-)

It's okay to be bland & nice. What women want is condfidence.
Confidence in yourself will give them confidence in you. To find true
self-confidence, you need to be the best at something. It doesn't
matter what it is. If you are the best damn street sweeper north of
the river, and you feel it, believe it, and it causes you to hold your
head up high, then that is enough.

For example, I've answered more questions here than any other
Australian. It gives me pride. I get women. I was hopeless with the
opposite sex before Google Answers came along.

I can highly recommend the independent US film from 3 or 4 years back
called The Tao of Steve, which helped me understand...
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0234853/

A nice guy got this girl too. Coming up on our 12th anniversary. He's
still nice to me, and I still think I somehow got the best husband in
the world.

I'm not sure how old you are, but that "nice guys don't get the girl"
stuff tends to go away as the girls get older than 20 and start seeing
"exciting and dangerous" as "never around and when he is I wish he
wasn't". Guys who are more interested in you than in their
bike/car/beer/sport/buddies/other women/selves start to look pretty
good!  When it comes to the long run, nice guys specifically *do* get
the girl.

Just because you are nice, doesn't mean you have to be invisible. Get
out there and be nice! Meet nice women. Take them to nice dinners, go
to nice movies, have nice conversations, plan nice surprises. Every
woman you meet won't want to spend the rest of her life with you, but
you won't want that either. Keep trying. One day, you'll show up where
she works and find all her friends standing around looking at the nice
flowers you sent and the nice letters you wrote and talking about how
they *wish* they could find a man who would be so nice to them.

- Hammer

I appreciate the comments, but they don't exactly address the problem
of a guy who just isn't that interesting to be around, who's best
attribute is simply being nice.
 I'm not saying, "I wanna be a bad boy" type, but let's face it,
boring men are a turn-off.
 I was really looking for ways a guy can become more interesting to
the opposite gender without going overboard with some silly macho act.

Most women like men who have a good sense of humor. You don't have to
be a stand-up comedian, but it might help if you acquired some funny
stories that you could tell as ice-breakers. Best if the stories
aren't too off-color.

Ok, a nice guy got this girl too. And he really *is* a nice guy, so
nice that he's right - thirty years ago I might never have given him
the time of day, well except for the fact that ... but I'm getting
ahead of myself.

You see, I was one of those girls who liked the dangerous, exciting
"bad boys" too, so I do have some experience to back up this advice. 
Here's a tip I'll give ya - and my 'nice boy,' who's now fifty years
old, agrees. In fact, he shakes his head and mutters, "If I had only
known .... I had no clue ..."  And sighs.  And rolls his eyes.  And
then he smiles. 'Cause he's got a clue now and it still amazes him,
even though we see the principle in operation all the time these days!
 :-)

Here's the deal: get a motorcycle, and preferably not just any
motorcycle either. Get a Harley. Doesn't have to be new, and doesn't
have to be top of the line.  Just make sure it's reasonably clean, has
a back seat WITH a back rest (or sissy bar or whatever you want to
call it), a fair amount of chrome, and some good loud pipes.  Learn to
ride it if you don't already know how, and then ride - whenever and
wherever you can.  Get some leather.  Rev up that engine.  When
(notice I didn't say "if") a chick gives you the eye, ask her if she'd
like a ride. Then give her one. And take your time vibrating, er -
idling I mean ;-) at stop signs and lights. You don't have to change a
thing about yourself, just be as nice as you really are. And I bet it
works.  And this is only a teeny fraction tongue-in-cheek ....

Girls DO like nice guys - but sometimes they need a little help
getting to notice/know one. If I had met my nice guy thirty years ago,
no, I might never have given him a second glance, except that he *did*
have the right stuff even though he didn't know it then - a
motorcycle!! This girl (and lots of others), even though usually
fairly prudent and not especially trusting, has nevertheless been
known to go off with a total stranger on a moment's notice just to get
a ride on a gorgeous bike .... girls today do too.

So get a Harley.  Bet it'll help.  And in between girls, you'll be having fun too! 

Disclaimer: NO I don't work for Harley-Davidson, and Google Answers
does not necessarily agree with my opinion, nor promote any particular
make or model of motorcycle.  It's just that I grew up in Wisconsin
with the sound of those engines in my dreams ... me and a lot of other
chicks elsewhere ;-) Good luck!

Give us a little more info about yourself nice guy, Tell us what you
look like, your hobbies, your interests, and your ideal girl. Be
careful to not give personal information like name address phone email
etc. If there is an image of you publicly posted that would be nice
too, if not...tell us who you look like. What do you do for a
living...just tell us your job, not your specific information.

Perhaps we are able to give you some advice from your lifestyle that will help you.

I can tell you that I am the nice guy who got the girl. I am
politically incorrect, ugly, overweight, and always had luck with the
ladies. Mainly, because I was confident in myself, and because I was
brutally honest with them. I was also always an intersting date.
Dinner and movies is nice, chinese food at a drive in is different. I
convinced a local pizza parlor owner to teach me to make a pizza, then
I told a girl I would make her dinner. I took her to the pizza place
and made a pizza for her. A little confidence, a little adventure, and
some fun never ever hurts.

Mother911-ga

Hey, Mother911...

 The physical part: 5'9", straight, black hair, pale skin, slim,
slight to med build, blue/green eyes.
 I'm self-employed - I fix computers for a living - I make housecalls
to residences and businesses.  Do pretty well at it, too.
 My work takes up too much of my time for me to develop anything
resembling an interesting hobby or avocation.
 Truth be told, nothing interests me much except movies (passionate
about film) and travel, but I've gone through too many financial
difficulties in the last three years to be able to afford to go
anywhere.
 I hang out with a friend who's somewhat better looking (although
shorter and with a big gut), but something about him attracts women. 
I burns me up that he's so funny, charming and clever, because he's
also a jobless, carless loser who still lives with his parents (we're
32).  I own an apartment, have a good business and drive a really nice
car.
 I need to do something different because women just aren't noticing
me.  I'm just not sure what.

Hi Pcventures,

You didn't mention any of your thoughts on your ideal girl. I also
noticed that you seem a little stressed when in a girl meeting
enviornment. How are you as far as being able to communicate with
women, just striking up conversation, making a joke, etc, do you tense
up, palms get sweaty?

What you need, sir, is to work or live or exist in an environment that
is exclusively or mostly female. The only rule you need to enforce on
yourself is to not shut up and hide in the corner. A couple of weeks
in and you'll have as much confidence around women as you could ever
need.

If this isn't an option in real life, do it online. Find a chatroom,
even a risque chatroom, where there are regulars, and join in. Be
yourself but exaggerate your character a little. When you start
realising what works and what doesn't, start doing exactly the same
things in real life.

Being bland isn't a problem. Being nice isn't a problem. Being too shy
to take part in anything is a very very very big problem.

And I'm a nice guy who didn't get the girl for a long, long time.
Shrug. I still got her in the end.

Poe

Hey pcventures,

Like poe, I'm the nice guy who didn't get the girl for a long, long
time - but much to my amazement I got her in the end.

Like hammer said, it gets much easier as time goes on. By the time
you're 25, the field will have cleared a bit, and nice guys will be in
demand. To my astonishment, I was even chased by someone who I'd
considered absolutely unattainable ten years earlier - by then she'd
changed enough to appreciate me (but unfortunately for her she'd left
it too long!).

Pinkfreud-ga is right about a sense of humor of course (she's right
about most things). Guys with a better sense of humor than me were
always leaving me in the dust when it came to girls. So cultivate any
latent sense of humor that you've got.

Poe is right that you should find a work or leisure environment that
is predominantly women. It's simple maths: chance of success equals
probability per woman multiplied by number of women.

You say you like travel, but can't afford to travel - so travel
locally! Join a club that hikes in the hills or find a sport or hobby
that involves a lot of travel (orienteering is just one example).

Finally, remember that it's a symmetrical situation. There are loads
of wonderful "bland, nice girls" out there - but, like you, it's not
working out for them. Maybe they feel that for whatever reason they
are usually classified by men as "not interesting/fun/cool" enough to
warrant attention. But all they really need is the right guy to "bring
out their virtues". So seek out those who you might otherwise not be
interested in.

In retrospect, during my younger years, many of the nicest girls were
totally ignored for that very reason. If only I had realised it at the
time!

Finally, go for it! Take the highs and the lows as they come. In the
long run, it's the "intense" experiences you'll look back on and
savor, and the lost opportunities will count for nothing. Good luck!

Regards,
eiffel-ga

Hi pcventures,

Please be yourself - trying to be someone you're not won't work, not
in the long-term anyway.

Despite what you may read, women appreciate chivalry - open the door
for them, help them on with their coats, that sort of thing. Be
attentive - don't try to be the life of the party, instead, ask
questions and then really listen to their answers.

Be romantic - kissing is important, develope a nice one (not too wet
or too wide - be nice and soft). Candles are a nice touch. Keep
condoms handy - don't leave it to her to remember them.

Cleansliness is more important than looks and designer clothes - a
mild smelling soap is nice - don't go heavy on the aftershave (don't
be afraid to wear a beard - many women love them).

Women love men who can cook - become an expert on a few good recipes
(nothing too fancy) and give her the full treatment (soup to nuts) &
don't let her help with the dishes. Don't forget a dessert - usually
chocolate is a big hit but ask first! If she's on a diet, serve a
small dish of sherbert. If you don't have nice dishes, you could
probably find some for two people at your local thrift store - old
stuff with character is more interesting than new stuff and it can
also be a conversation piece.

Most of all, you need to go to places where women are - the park? Sit
on a park bench, have an interesting book with you that you would
enjoy talking about, and be pleasant - SMILE.

Good luck - I hope you send us an update from time to time,
hummer

I ought to clarify one point I made, as it was misleading.

Eiffel interpreted my comment about working (or playing) in a
predominantly female environment as increasing your chances and his
reaction is absolutely correct given his interpretation.

However, I had other reasons in mind. I have never personally been
scared to open my mouth around women, but I did work at a data
processing firm for a number of years where everyone else except the
boss was female. I realise just how much my confidence improved over
that timeframe, purely because I was talking to women all the time. I
wasn't interested in getting any of these girls but I do value the
lessons I learned in working out how to open my mouth around them.

If there's an all-office conversation about period pains or giving
birth or the right sort of tampon and you're the only male there, you
learn to cope. Quickly. Or they'll eat you alive.

Once you can cope with that, talking to the one girl you want is going
to seem like the easiest thing in the world.

Mother911:

 Ideal girl? Between 27 and 35 (I'm 32), 
 bright, hard-working, slender and curious,
 openness to trying new things (especially
 interesting cuisine), with a strong independent streak
 (libertarians especially welcome).

 The funny thing is, Mother, that I used to have
 much more confidence, I just somehow lost it along
 the way.  I also haven't come across too many women
 I've felt like, "I've really gotta talk to that one."

 I think the idea of putting myself into an environment
 with more women is a good idea, but difficult to do given
 the odd hours I work.

 Look, a lot of you are saying stuff like, "it's OK to just
 be myself" and to not fight my essential nature. 
 But that's the problem - no one likes bland.  I don't want
 to be bland.  I think I'm not an especially bland person by 
 nature, but I'm *acting* that way because I'm stuck in a behavioral
 rut.  I originally posted looking for anyone who can suggest
 how a guy can become more interesting.
 
 Hummer - I think you're only partly right.  Unfortunately,
 my experiences have been that perversely, the better you
 are to someone, the worse they are to you.  There was only
 one woman who truly reciprocated when I was good to her.
 I think women, especially the younger ones, are outright 
 contemptuous of the whole "chivalry" thing and are actually
 turned off by it. 
 
 I treated an ex-girlfriend to a light dinner one night recently.
 She didn't even say thanks. (she's here visiting from another
 country, where she moved to).
 Two days later, we were talking, and she complained about the
 guy who she moved here to be with.  This guy very savagely
 (verbally) broke off the relationship.  During the declining
 phase of their relationship (he was already treating her badly
 at this point)they were at another diner together.  As she explained 
 it, she thanked him repeatedly for the meal, and all he said was,
 "you're an ungrateful (unprintable.)"

 I'm not excusing ill treatment of any type, but I'm sorry, I just
 know that women don't want overly nice, overly attentive men.
 Even when they say they do.

According to my own personal observations, the nice guy never gets the
intelligent, beautiful girl. He also does't get the dumb, beautiful
girl, or the intelligent, ugly girl.
Actually, the nice guy should consider himself lucky if fate, the
Almighty, or the mysterious forces with the bad sense of humor that
mastermind the universe let him get the dumb, ugly girl.
As I said, that's the summary of what I noticed. There may be
exceptions. But certainly they are as rare as ice cubes in the Sahara.

Scriptor

I think part of the problem is with saying that "bland" and "nice" are
the same thing. A man can be both nice and also interesting. A man can
be nice and attentive without being "overly" either. And, despite what
you may think, all women are not into being treated like garbage. Some
are. Some just fell for the wrong guy.

I do agree that bland is a problem when it comes to attracting women.
If you blend into the wallpaper, then we never notice you to find out
whether you are nice or not.

You don't actually sound terribly bland. A wide range of film
interests, love of travel, and a taste for exotic cuisine and a bent
towards libertarianism are not bland traits.

Are you a good host? Have you considered organizing events for your
friends and workmates that point up these interests and abilities?
Throw parties. You can be the one to organize a group tour of some
interesting place. You can invite people over to screen interesting
and cool movies. You can cook yummy interesting dishes and bring them
into the office to share. This sort of thing can make you a focal
point of your social group, opens up topics of conversation for women
who share (or want to share) these interests, and certainly serves to
pop you out of the woodwork. In addition, being invited at first as
part of a group is less intimidating to a woman than being invited
specifically on a date. It gives her a chance to see you at your best
without having to worry about "leading you on" or whether she's
"interested" or the other stuff we worry about when guys ask us out on
dates.

I'm sorry it took so long to respond, but what i've realized, and it
is difficult to say, is that you aren't bland. You seem more bitter
about some things in your past. I think you need to just start with a
fresh plate, and a fresh attitude, take some chances, talk to anyone
you see who interests you. Bland would be an accountant who collects
pencil shavings. You travel, and are interested in film and cuisine.
Most women would kill themselves to meet a man who is interested in
seeing the world, sampling it's food, and then settle in for a nice
movie over some popcorn.

So bland...not you. You don't seem to have any blatant thing that
would block women from talking to you. I am going to add some slightly
obnoxious comments below they don't neccessarily represent you, just
consider them. Please understand, these aren't judgements, these are
honest opinions, and maybe the ladies here can comment on them. This
is a list of things which will keep women from talking to you.

1. Smell. Not just bad odors, it's hard enough to talk to someone who
has body odor, or foul breath. It's worse when you need to try not to
aspirate the gallon of el cheapo cologne they bathed themselves in. I
personally don't believe much cologne or perfume is neccessary. I
little on your neck, and by little, I mean...spray it in the air and
walk into it. But it's a splash bottle you say, stick your finger at
the top and let a little dot get on the piece of your finger covering
the hole. One maybe two of that little dot is more then enough.

2 Dirt. Like smell, dirty fingernails, dirty hands, shoes that look
like you climbed a manure pile to get in the door, all bad.

3. Clothing. You don't need a million dollar wardrobe to impress the
ladies, I meet my wife while wearing sweat pants, combat boots and a
pull over sweashirt, now granted, I can make that outfit look studly,
and it's not for everyone, but perhaps some women might be thinking,
who the hell would wear combat boots and sweat pants. Make sure you
are dressed appropriately for the occassion. Cargo pants and a
football jersey are great for sunday at the sports bar, or super bowl
sunday but not for a wedding. Make sure what you're wearing was made
this century, your 20 yr old jordache jeans that still fit with your
members only jacket is not a good look. Go and splurge if this is your
closet inventory. Try and pay attention to laundry, clean underwear
and socks are mandatory, but let's also consider that if you didn't
fold it while it was clean, it probably looks like you found it under
your bed. Spend a minute to run an iron over shirts and slacks before
heading out. No one wants to look wrinkled and disheveled. Lastly, the
basics, no white socks with dress shoes, no open toed sandal type
shoes if your feet look like you kick cement walls for a living.

4. Conversation. Talk more about her, ask her questions, and listen to
what she is saying, ask questions about things she is saying. Make it
clear you are listening, by interacting with her comments. If she
mentions a item of clothing you have no clue about, ask about it. If
you have spent more then half the conversation speaking about
yourself, or staring blindly at her while she rambles, you are
failing. Be self depracating, as well as ego building. If you are a
clutz, be honest about it, and don't spend hours regailing her with
your touchdown catch in pee wee league football that no one but you
remembers. If it is a funny story about you running the length of the
field the wrong way, go with it, if you are the hero, let it wait til
later.

5. Confidence. Go talk to her, it doesn't matter if you are scared,
the worst thing she can say is no. If she does, who cares her loss,
you're a great guy who travels the world and eats fine foods, and
loves movies, perhaps she wants a guy who is a couch potato, who lives
in front of the tv or computer all day. Move on and find a new
interesting person. Also, avoid choosing people based solely on looks,
choose someone who looks interesting, someone smiling, and not someone
standing with a giant biker, or muscle bound steroid abusing
sociopath.

Good luck,
Mother911-ga

I remember reading a survey once (am about to date myself here :-))
regarding the characters on the TV show M*A*S*H* --- Hawkeye Pierce
and BJ Hunnicut.

An overwhelming majority of the women surveyed stated that,of the two,
they would prefer to date Hawkeye. However an overwhelming majority
also stated that they would much prefer to MARRY BJ.

Food for thought.

-K~

Everyone here has given me food for thought.  Mother911, thanks for
the bullet-points of advice - you're too hard on yourself - I took all
of your suggestions in stride - you made good points!
 Thanks again everyone... :)