The new Mel Gibson movie, "The Passion," has reminded me of a question
that I've never had intelligibly answered: what does the "for" mean in
"Jesus died for our sins"?

Hello nautico~

?Jesus died for our sins? has become a pat phrase that?s unfortunately
rarely explained?-perhaps because the concept isn?t particularly easy
to understand or explain, especially if someone isn?t very familiar
with both the old and new testaments. However, here?s what Christians
mean by dying ?for? our sins:

? Being just and righteous, God can?t stand by and see sin go
undisciplined or unpunished. Sin is a word that often gets a bad rap
today, but all it means is ?disobeying God.? God warned Adam and Eve
(Genesis 2:17) that disobeying Him would bring them death--physical
and spiritual (1 John 1:7-9). In the Biblical sense, spiritual death
means eternal separation from God.

? Jesus died for a very specific reason: to pay the penalty for sins
of the world (1 John 2:2).

? Jesus Christ died in the physical sense only; his spirit lives on.

? Like the Jew?s Passover lamb, Jesus was a sacrifice to atone for our
sins. His death made right what was wrong between us and God. (Lev.
17:11; Rom. 5:9;1 Pet. 2:24). (For more on the ?Passover lamb?
concept, see ?Jesus in the Passover,? Light of Messiah Ministries,
http://www.light-of-messiah.org/pages/passover.htm )

? When Jesus died, he didn?t deserve the penalty that he withstood. He
was sinless. Therefore, Jesus ?earned? the right to forgive others,
and take on the penalty for him. In other words, while we deserved
God?s discipline, Jesus stepped in and said ?No, punish me instead.?
Jesus was a substitute. (Romans 3:25-26)

? The result of Jesus? stepping in is this: All we have to do is
accept the situation, and Jesus? authority to create it,?and we?ll no
longer be separated from God (John 3:16)


Additionally, you might be interested in the annotated article "Why
did Jesus have to die for our sins?" by Christian Apologetics &
Research Ministry: http://www.carm.org/doctrine/Jesusdieforsins.htm

Regards,
Kriswrite

RESEARCH STRATEGY:
Researcher's personal knowledge

Many thanks. Though I now have a better idea of what the "for" means
in a semantic sense, I still have trouble getting my mind around the
concept.

To me, the "for" in "Jesus died for our sins" is similar to the "for"
used by a person who drops coins into a March of Dimes collection box,
saying "This is for the children," or a mother who slips money into
her child's pocket, saying "This is for lunch."

Pink, as always, an excellent comment :)

Kriswrite

Another analogy just occurred to me.

The "for" in "Jesus died for our sins" is like the "for" that appears
in a phrase printed on U.S. currency: "THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR
ALL DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE."

Nautico~

Thank you for the tip, and I'm pleased that you have a better
understanding, at least. I think most people have a hard time "getting
their mind around" the concept that they are "sinners," and that God
requires *something* for that--and therefore, God appeared on earth as
a man to help us out. It IS an amazing concept, no doubt about it!

Kriswrite

One question I've never heard asked is what would civilization look
like today, if Jesus had never been born? Stated otherwise, if NO ONE
had "died for our sins"? Did Jesus also die for the sins of
non-believers--Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists, et al? Assuming there's
only one God, would not that God want to send other "Jesuses" into the
midst of those outside Christianity to save them and atone for their
sins in similar fashion? Or, alternatively, send Jesus down to us
again, so that He could reprise his role, but on a global scale?

(Comprehension of that critical "for" continues to elude me.)

Hi Nautico. On the bible basis that ALL men originated from Adam, it
was God`s purpose for man on earth to look after it and enjoy it. By
disobedience, Adam and Eve were banished to a life of struggle [
Genesis 3;17-19] This situation was against what God had planned for
mankind, so HE had to set in place a condition that would restore HIS
plan and purpose. Jesus` sacrifice applied to ALL men. In the very
early days between Adam leaving the Garden of Eden, and populating the
earth, up to the time of Abraham, all men had an inbuilt desire to
worship.And Genesis 11;1 says that all the earth continued to be of
one language and one set of words. After the situation with Nimrod
trying to be equal to God, God surmised that there was nothing they
could not achieve. So as stated at Genesis 11; 7 &8, HE confused their
language . This resulted in many tribes and races going off and "doing
their own thing", by worshipping animals, the sun and just about
everything else. This was the basis of the religions we see today as
non-christian. God himself contacted the early Hebrews and promised
Abraham his offspring would become a "Special Property" [ Exodus 19;5
Deuteronomy 14;2] So the sacrifice of Jesus applied to ALL men,
because every man since Adam had sinned, including Adam himself. And
Eve of course. Three scriptures clearly state that Jesus sacrifice was
once only. first Peter 3;18 "why, even Christ died once for all time
concerning sins, a righteous person FOR unrighteous ones". Romans 6;10
"For the death that he died, he died with reference to sin once for
all time, but the life that he lives, he lives with reference to God".
Hebrews 9;28 " So also the Christ was offered once for all time to
bear the sins of many, and the second time he appears [ at
Armageddon-Revelation] IT WILL BE APART FROM SIN. So Nautico, hope
this helps.

Pugwashjw: though I do understand what you are saying re Christ having
died for the sins of ALL humankind, it would seem on the surface
inoperative (for lack of a better word) for the non-Christian
population. The scripture you cite appears to contend that, since
Christ atoned for the sins of all and for all time, then the fact that
someone is Buddhist, for example, does not dilute the degree of
atonement that he or she enjoys as a result of the crucifixion. But I
see a conflict between such a position and the doctrine that one must
"accept" Christ as messiah in order to be "saved." Are those two
premises not in conflict or is the act of being saved separate and
distinct from the atonement and forgiveness of sin?

The question of atonement and salvation is complex and has varied
answers depending on what line of Christian theology you're going to
follow.

But, in terms of getting your head around the concept, I so highly
recommend you read Milton's _Paradise Lost,_ which is an classic epic
poem that revolves around this very topic, essentially the fall of the
evil angles from heaven, the creation of the world and humanity, Eve's
temptation by Satan, through to Christ and his sacrifice. It is
wonderfully written, entertaining, and compelling. Most importantly it
illuminates an essential part of the human condition. Milton is one of
the most masterful poets of the English language. He is one of the few
true geniuses, deeply schooled in more than a dozen linguistic and
cultural traditions.

This is a rich and complex topic, and if you really want to begin
understanding it you would also have to read the Bible and many other
works. At least read through Genesis to get an idea of the foundation.

Also, if you find Milton interesting, you could look further into this
issue of choice and salvation in that context. Milton was somewhat
Calvinist early in his life, and the Calvinists did not whatsoever
believe in the concept of "accepting" Christ. If you were going to be
saved, you were going to be saved, if not, not: it was predestined,
regardless of your conduct.

By the time of _Paradise Lost_ Milton had become closer to a opposing
school called Arminianism (after the Protestant theologist Arminius),
which allowed for free will and determination (you can decide to be
good, and thus saved). There are in fact many readings of _Paradise
Lost_ that highlight its tensions' reflections of the precepts of
Calvinism and Arminianism. There are also many arguments about the
extent of Milton's devotion or practice of either of these schools of
thought. In my opinion, if you look into the matter, you will find
Milton an entirely unique, independent and sometimes contradictory
thinker.

So you are wise to see a conflict between acceptance and salvation,
and in my reading of Milton you are in his excellent company. I am not
Christian, but I do not know if you will find many that would
interpret the doctrine of salvation to include those who have not
accepted Christ. I think if you read the Bible yourself you could
probably convince yourself that Christ wants everyone to be saved,
regardless. Dante, for his part, put all those great people who came
before Christ (like the Greeks and his hero, Virgil) in a ring limbo,
just before those of Hell. You could be a Buddhist and a Christian at
the same time: there are in fact priests, etc. who are. But from my
understanding, acceptance of Christ is a necessity.

Some final notes, some people do make exceptions, like Dante, for
those who never had the chance to choose Christ. This is likely little
of the population of the world these days due to enduring missionary
influence. Regardless, they may not necessarily go to Hell, especially
those who are very virtuous. For others, however, even the most
virtuous will fry with the rest of the sinners.

Thus, those who could not be forgiven due to their lack of knowledge
may perhaps be saved, in some views. But those who would deny Christ
will never be saved, for they would sin in denying Christ after
knowing him, and would be cast with the sinners on judgement day.
Essentially, as you will see in Paradise Lost, by denying Christ they
are choosing the side of Satan and evil, they are acting like the
fallen angles who revolted against God. I could go on for another
decade about that topic, but I'll leave you to look into it yourself.
A highly profitable and recommended line of inquiry even for the
non-religous.

Yes, an an old English major--the operative word is "old"--I do
remember slogging my way through "Paradise Lost."

Christian missionaries notwithstanding, there'll always remain some
question about the destiny of non-Christians who've allegedly never
been exposed to the teachings of Christ. I say "allegedly" only
because with the advent of the Internet, knowledge of His existence
will continue to approach a global reach.

I attended a Billy Graham crusade at the University of Minnesota in
1966, and I vividly remember raising my hand from the back of a full
auditorium and asking Rev. Graham the same question. His response:
"that's up to the mercy of God."

For Nautico. Its taken some time to get back to this question, but I
am sure that you check back on interesting subjects and comments. You
asked " what about non christian religions. I believe there is only
ONE God, and He has a set of rules. And they are all wrapped up in the
scripture at Matthew 22; 37 to 40. There is a scripture in Revelation
18; 4 which points to an organization with people as members. This
would exclude lawbreakers with no affiliation with any group. The
scripture states " Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to
share with her in her sins, aand if you do not want to receive part of
her plagues". Is this Governmental, Religious or Commerce. Government
and Commerce include people from all religions, generally, but this
scripture seems to point at a, or many, groups that have a common
goal. And
God disapproves. A small point on icons. Exodus 20;4,5 " You must not
make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in
the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the
waters under the earth.5. You must not bow down to them or serve them
, because I [ God`s name. Psalm 83;18] your God, am a God exacting
exclusive devotion, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon
sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation, in the
case of those WHO HATE ME. 6. But exercising loving kindness toward
the thousandth generation in the case of those who love me and KEEP MY
COMMANDMENTS. So Nautico, from those scriptures, it seems to me that
it is up to us to find out what the ONE God wants from us. The
Catholic faith uses many icons, going against the bible as quoted.
Buddhists worship a deceased person, [ can he "SAVE" them?] Hindus
worship many gods [ ???] and the Koran of the Muslims actually permits
the killing of "infidels".  I myself look forward to the future time
promised in Revelation 20 verses 3 & 4. " Look, the tent of God is
with mankind [ obedient and compliant mankind] and He will reside with
them, and they will be his peoples, And God himself will be with them
[ Spiritually, because no man has seen God] . And He will wipe out
every tear from their eyes AND DEATH WILL BE NO MORE , neither will
mourning nor outcry be nor pain be anymore. The former things have
passed away". Seems like we have been promised life without death.
Seems like Everlasting to me. And no sickness. Seems to imply
continued life on this earth of ours. And the second part of verse 5
says " Write, because these words are faithful and true". I have not
come across any other promises as good as these.

I'd just like to make a clarification to the answer provided by
kriswrite.  It was stated among the bulleted beliefs held by
Christians that, "Jesus Christ died in the physical sense only; his
spirit lives on".

True, Jesus Christ did die physically, but the answer implies that
Christ stayed dead physically and His resurrection was in Spirit only.
 The clarification is that Jesus Christ was resurrected in bodily
form.

Luke 24:36 - "Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in
the midst of them, and said to them, "Peace to you."  But they were
terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.  And He
said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your
hearts?  Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me
and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I
have."  When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet."

That is all.  Thanks.

If you're still interested, I have what I believe is a good
suggestion.  There's a website I've just found recently, called
www.roadmapforthesoul.com that I suggest you look at.  Read all of the
individual "chapters," not just the Overview.  It goes into great
detail decribing the relationship between the Jewish
Temple/Tabernacle, the life of Jesus(in Hebrew, Yeshua) the Jewish
Messiah, and the life of every human being.  I've been studying in
earnest for several years now, and this has really helped crystallize
for me exactly what "Jesus dying for our sins" meant and means.  HOW
does it make sense?  WHY does it work?  You know, what's the
mechanism?

Certainly, no one website has all the answers, but if you're looking
for an intellectual answer for an intellectual question that can still
be thoroughly Biblical, check it out.  If you'd like any other useful
sites from the list I've accumulated, email me at
mashiachyeshua@yahoo.com.  May the L-RD bless you in your search for
Truth.