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Q: Old National Brand Lap Steel Guitar Identification ( Answered 4 out of 5 stars,   1 Comment )
Question  
Subject: Old National Brand Lap Steel Guitar Identification
Category: Miscellaneous
Asked by: okie1-ga
List Price: $10.00
Posted: 02 Mar 2004 17:57 PST
Expires: 01 Apr 2004 17:57 PST
Question ID: 312805
I want to the know the model name and year of manufacture of a
National lap steel guitar and its approximate value in today's market
(in very good condition).  The registration card with it was addressed
to National Guitar & Dobro, 400 So. Peoria St., Chicago, Il.  There is
no ZIP so it must be pre 1963.  I would appreciate any reference
information as well.

Request for Question Clarification by clouseau-ga on 02 Mar 2004 18:10 PST
Hello okie1,

There were numerous models made by National over the years. Can you
possibly upload and post a link to a picture and I will attempt to
identify your exact model and value for you.

Thanks,

-=clouseau=-

Clarification of Question by okie1-ga on 02 Mar 2004 18:55 PST
National lap steel guitar has a serial number D487

Clarification of Question by okie1-ga on 03 Mar 2004 14:21 PST
Hello clouseau,

Thanks for your response.  Don't have picture at this time and I
assume serial number is not enough information. (d487)  I will try to
get picture and get back.  May take some time.

Thanks, 

okie1

Request for Question Clarification by clouseau-ga on 03 Mar 2004 14:24 PST
That would be most helpful. The serial number is really not useful. If
it were a Martin guitar, it would be but I don't think a National
serial number database can be found.

I'll keep an eye out for your reply here and see where it takes us.

-=clouseau=-

Request for Question Clarification by clouseau-ga on 03 Mar 2004 14:29 PST
okie1,

It is **possible** depending on your guitar that this is accurate, but
then again, may not be:

"...1970-79 - "D" or "B" followed by 3 or 4 digits (ranking) & last
number indicates year. (B - metal, D - wood)..."

So, if yours is wooden and a Dobro style rather than electric laptop,
it would be made in 1977. I'm assuming from your description that
yours is a solid body electric lapsteel rather than a resonator.
Correct me if I am wrong.

-=clouseau=-

Clarification of Question by okie1-ga on 05 Mar 2004 15:03 PST
Hello clouseau,

You are correct that the instrument is not a dobro but is a solid body
lap steel.  I am working on picture, Sorry to take so long.
Thanks, Okie1

Request for Question Clarification by clouseau-ga on 05 Mar 2004 15:10 PST
Not at all a problem, okie1. Take all the time you need.

I'll look forward to the picture.

-=clouseau=-

Clarification of Question by okie1-ga on 09 Mar 2004 19:55 PST
Hello CLOUSEAU,
I have picture I can attach to an email now, but am unsure of where to
send it or how I can get it to you.  I don't know if google has a spot
or not.  Please advise. -- okie1

Request for Question Clarification by clouseau-ga on 09 Mar 2004 20:06 PST
Unfortunately Google does not provide this service, at least right now.

Try the free Yahoo service here:
http://photos.yahoo.com/

Be sure to set the pictures to be publicly viewable. Once done, place
a link here to your picture and we'll see if we can help further.

Thanks.

-=clouseau=-

Request for Question Clarification by clouseau-ga on 09 Mar 2004 20:39 PST
Another researcher here also reccomends www.photobucket.com as an
alternate. You might find it easier to use.

-=clouseau=-

Clarification of Question by okie1-ga on 09 Mar 2004 21:00 PST
Hello CLOUSEAU,  Well I think I got the photo up on yahoo at
         photos.yahoo.com/oldokie1933
I hope I did it right.  Thanks  -  okie1

Request for Question Clarification by clouseau-ga on 09 Mar 2004 21:18 PST
You did perfect!

I won't have a chance to search until tomorrow, but will let you know
what I find then.

Thanks for posting the picture.

-=clouseau=-

Request for Question Clarification by clouseau-ga on 10 Mar 2004 09:08 PST
Hi again okie1,

Well, try as I could, I can't nail down your model National. Hence,
I'll post this is a clarification rather than the answer.

As you will see, your model is similar to the Chicagoan's and
resembles New Yorker's in some ways. But is distinctly different as
well.


For a few examples:

http://www.theblueguitar.com/item.php?item_id=31

"National lap steel "Chicago" model, early '40's. Excellent condition,
missing bridge cover. With original case. Make offer.

$400.00"

Note: Missing bridge cover will lower the value. Your seems to be
missing it as well. The $400 here seems to be on the high side of
asking prices for these models and it also includes the case.

And, a 1951 Chicagoan with case for $200:

http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/185U-203.htm

"NATIONAL CHICAGOAN LAP STEEL GUITAR (c.1951) 

EC except needs work (replace crumbling tuner buttons, clean
electronics, clean, restring and set up, etc. - sold AS-IS), grey
pearloid body with matching headstock, clear fingerboard with cream
backing and black musical note position markers, "G" clef on first
fret, ~23" scale, 1-15/16" nut width, screw-on jack cord connector,
Supro pickup with black screw-on pickup cover, volume and tone
controls, 3-on-a-plate Kluson Deluxe tuners with white plastic
buttons, headstock badge with blue "National" logo, with tweed OHSC
(SN:X3239)
185U-203 .. $200.00 buy "

Note the serial number is obviously a different series than yours. I
don't believe this means that yours is significantly older than the
early 50's, however. Serial numbers must not have run consecutively.

You'll note the following model is newer, yet has a "T" serial number:


http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/185U-175.htm

"NATIONAL CHICAGOAN LAP STEEL GUITAR (1958) 
EC-, grey pearloid body with matching headstock, clear fingerboard
with cream backing and black musical note position markers, "G"clef on
first fret, screw-on jack cord connector (NO CABLE), Supro pickup with
black screw-on pickup cover, volume and tone controls, 3-on-a-plate
Kluson Deluxe tuners with cream tulip shaped buttons, brass finished
headstock badge with blue "National" logo, ~23" scale, 1-15/16" nut
width, with rough OHSC (SN:T2983)
185U-175 .. $300.00 buy "

Here is a similar model Serial # G20958 which was made in roughly 1960:
http://www.joeyace.com/lapsteel.htm

If we look at this as a trend, then the earlier letters alphabetically
are the newer model lap steels. This would put you in the early 60's.

Here's a 1959 model, for another example, and similar in style to yours:
http://www.georginamusic.com/national.htm


We know it was made between 1932 and 1970:

http://www.gibson.com/products/dobro/1996/dobrostory.html

"...After each side sued the other, they merged in 1932 to form the
National-Dobro company. Although resonator guitars were initially
well-received, the company quickly shifted its focus to the emerging
electric guitar.

National made no DOBRO® guitars after World War II, but several of the
Dopyera brothers revived the spider-bridge resonator guitars under the
DB Original brand. Family members formed the Original Musical
Instrument company in 1967 and made resonator guitars under the Hound
Dog brand until 1970, when they finally reacquired the DOBRO® name..."

This page further refines the manufacturing dates:
http://www.well.com/user/wellvis/gitinfo.html

"...National lap steels were made from 1935 until 1968, when the
company became bankrupt..."

And, as you mention, there is no zip on the registration card, so its
down to 1935-1963!

So, about the best we can pin this down is between the late '50s -
early 60's. As to value, as you will see, they sell between $200 and a
high of maybe $600 depending  on condition, completeness and whether a
case is included or not.

I wish I could be more definitive for you. Perhaps another researcher
might be able to uncover a bit more information.

Regards,

-=clouseau=-

Clarification of Question by okie1-ga on 10 Mar 2004 19:25 PST
hello clouseau,

Thanks for the information.  I am happy so go ahead and make this the
answer and I will be happy to accept it.  I suspect you gave me all
that is reasonably available.  Thanks again.   regards to you,  okie1
Answer  
Subject: Re: Old National Brand Lap Steel Guitar Identification
Answered By: clouseau-ga on 10 Mar 2004 21:05 PST
Rated:4 out of 5 stars
 
Hello okie1,

Thank you for allowing me to post my research as the answer. I wish I
could have located a bit more for you and I shall keep an eye out
"just in case" I do.

Do enjoy your lap steel!

Regards,

-=clouseau=-


*************************************************************************

Answer reposted from above:

As you will see, your model is similar to the Chicagoan's and
resembles New Yorker's in some ways. But is distinctly different as
well.


For a few examples:

http://www.theblueguitar.com/item.php?item_id=31

"National lap steel "Chicago" model, early '40's. Excellent condition,
missing bridge cover. With original case. Make offer.

$400.00"

Note: Missing bridge cover will lower the value. Your seems to be
missing it as well. The $400 here seems to be on the high side of
asking prices for these models and it also includes the case.

And, a 1951 Chicagoan with case for $200:

http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/185U-203.htm

"NATIONAL CHICAGOAN LAP STEEL GUITAR (c.1951) 

EC except needs work (replace crumbling tuner buttons, clean
electronics, clean, restring and set up, etc. - sold AS-IS), grey
pearloid body with matching headstock, clear fingerboard with cream
backing and black musical note position markers, "G" clef on first
fret, ~23" scale, 1-15/16" nut width, screw-on jack cord connector,
Supro pickup with black screw-on pickup cover, volume and tone
controls, 3-on-a-plate Kluson Deluxe tuners with white plastic
buttons, headstock badge with blue "National" logo, with tweed OHSC
(SN:X3239)
185U-203 .. $200.00 buy "

Note the serial number is obviously a different series than yours. I
don't believe this means that yours is significantly older than the
early 50's, however. Serial numbers must not have run consecutively.

You'll note the following model is newer, yet has a "T" serial number:


http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/185U-175.htm

"NATIONAL CHICAGOAN LAP STEEL GUITAR (1958) 
EC-, grey pearloid body with matching headstock, clear fingerboard
with cream backing and black musical note position markers, "G"clef on
first fret, screw-on jack cord connector (NO CABLE), Supro pickup with
black screw-on pickup cover, volume and tone controls, 3-on-a-plate
Kluson Deluxe tuners with cream tulip shaped buttons, brass finished
headstock badge with blue "National" logo, ~23" scale, 1-15/16" nut
width, with rough OHSC (SN:T2983)
185U-175 .. $300.00 buy "

Here is a similar model Serial # G20958 which was made in roughly 1960:
http://www.joeyace.com/lapsteel.htm

If we look at this as a trend, then the earlier letters alphabetically
are the newer model lap steels. This would put you in the early 60's.

Here's a 1959 model, for another example, and similar in style to yours:
http://www.georginamusic.com/national.htm


We know it was made between 1932 and 1970:

http://www.gibson.com/products/dobro/1996/dobrostory.html

"...After each side sued the other, they merged in 1932 to form the
National-Dobro company. Although resonator guitars were initially
well-received, the company quickly shifted its focus to the emerging
electric guitar.

National made no DOBRO® guitars after World War II, but several of the
Dopyera brothers revived the spider-bridge resonator guitars under the
DB Original brand. Family members formed the Original Musical
Instrument company in 1967 and made resonator guitars under the Hound
Dog brand until 1970, when they finally reacquired the DOBRO® name..."

This page further refines the manufacturing dates:
http://www.well.com/user/wellvis/gitinfo.html

"...National lap steels were made from 1935 until 1968, when the
company became bankrupt..."

And, as you mention, there is no zip on the registration card, so its
down to 1935-1963!

So, about the best we can pin this down is between the late '50s -
early 60's. As to value, as you will see, they sell between $200 and a
high of maybe $600 depending  on condition, completeness and whether a
case is included or not.
okie1-ga rated this answer:4 out of 5 stars
Reseacher was very helpful and I felt quite competent.  I am satisfied.

Comments  
Subject: Re: Old National Brand Lap Steel Guitar Identification
From: jetpowercom-ga on 29 May 2004 16:49 PDT
 
For possible info on the serial #, you can consult Bob Brozman's
treatise on Nationals, where he compiled as much data as possible from
his deep well of experience with the instruments.  In addition to
photos (lots of photos), stories and technical tips, he lists serial
numbers for all Nationals known to him at that time (from his travels
and notes mailed in from friends and associates).  Published in the
mid-90s, the book is called something like _The Artistry and History
of the National Steel Resonator Guitar_.

Even if your serial number is not listed (anybody's guess), it's a
greatly interesting book to any National guitar owner or fan.

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