Hi, PG

Arising out of #312705 ...

What is the status of those souls who were consigned to Eternal
Damnation before the advent of Vatican II but who would have qualified
for a place in Heaven had they lived long enough?

Can they be re-routed from one place to another?

Dear Bryan, 

AC took a bit of my words straight out of my mouth, but I guess that I
have to earn my place (in heaven? in hell? where you could get good
Beatles tickets) as well.

What happened to those souls before the Second Vatican Council? 

All souls arrive, with death, to Purgatory, which is a condition of
torment "nearly all of us shall...have to pass a period more or less
long in the excruciating fires of Purgatory after death." Gregory the
Great wrote "that the pain be more intolerable than any one can suffer
in this life" Augustine and St. Bonaventure agree." (SOURCE: Religious
Tolerance site on Purgatory,
<http://www.religioustolerance.org/purgatory.htm>; the citations are
from:
Fr. Paul O'Sullivan, "How to avoid Purgatory." See:
http://www.marianland.com/hell007.html
Op cit., Catholic Encyclopedia: Gregory the Great, Ps. 3 poenit., n. 1 
Op cit., Catholic Encyclopedia: Augustine, Ps. 37 n. 3 
Op cit., Catholic Encyclopedia: St. Bonaventure, IV, dist. xx, p.1, a.1, q. ii ). 

Now, those who are entitled to get to heaven, get to heaven after they
are cleansed. Therefore, the answer could be simply, that these should
were at a state of purgatory beforehand, now in heaven.

The Pope himself said (1999): 
"Before we enter into God's Kingdom, every trace of sin within us must
be eliminated, every imperfection in our soul must be corrected. This
is exactly what takes place in purgatory." But he continued by stating
that Purgatory "does not indicate a place but a condition of life.
Those who, after death, live in this state of purification are already
immersed in the love of Christ which lifts them out of the residue of
imperfection."
(SOURCE: Purgatory in Religous Tolerance
<http://www.religioustolerance.org/purgatory1.htm>

However, first of all, those who have not repented would find
themselves in Hell, from which no prayers could save the soul. If we
took this angle, it could be argued that those poor should are beyond
saviour despite the announcement.

On the other hand, since the Vatican pertains to represent the word of
God, it seems that these souls, in retrospective, just as AC said, are
saved, since this was the will of God from the beginning. This could
be even more complex, if we look into John 5:28-29 "Most assuredly, I
say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has
everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed
from death into life. Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is
coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of
God; and those who hear will live.".

Those who "deserve" salvation according to Vatican II, already have
everlasting life, and would resurrect when the time comes. Only after
Vatican II, it had been recognised.

It should be stressed that the Second Vatican Council still maintains,
that Catholics ho live a perfect life would be saved, the others are
just not excluded, but "can have indirect access to salvation, but
that their faith may well place serious roadblocks on the path to
salvation." (SOURCE: CAN NON-CATHOLICS BE SAVED - ACCORDING TO THE
ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH?, Religious Tolerance,
<http://www.religioustolerance.org/rcc_salv.htm>).


Further Reading
---------------
GUSTAV NIEBUHR "Hell Is Getting A Makeover From Catholics; Jesuits
Call It a Painful State But Not a Sulfurous Place" New York Times,
September 18, 1999 <http://www.karenlundegaard.com/Questions/Suicide/Niebuhr.html>

There is an interesting discussion, reaching also past famous
non-Catholics (for example, Confucius) on Greenspun ("Salvation
outside of the Catholic Church"
<http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002d4y>).

I hope this helped to clear up things. As usual, my search strategy
was to use terms that might have appeared in sites relating to the
subject. Please contact me if you need any clarification here and
there (however, as your correspondent in Hell, I deserve an
air-conditioned lift, if you send me to check things up).

Brilliant, PG, as always.

I fear that I shall not be going to Heaven.

But, what the Hell?

Bryan

I don't think Vatican II actually changed the rules God uses to decide
where someone ends up, but merely the Catholic church's belief of how
those rules are applied.  In other words if the post-Vatican II view
is right, those souls would have ended up in heaven regardless of when
they died (even many centuries ago), and if the pre-Vatican II view
was correct then, even had they lived long enough, they would still
ended up elsewhere.

Many thanks ac67 ... Your Comment makes a lot of sense.

LOL Bryan and thank for the rating.

The concept of purgatory requires that there is a separate spiritual
part of us that continues to exist after the instant of death. This is
the part that is "punished". Sorry, but it just does not "wash".
Nowhere in my Bible can I find such an idea expressed. I imagine that
the R.C. church has the Bible, like me. And my Bible says at
Ecclesiastes 9;5.. The living are conscious that they will die, but as
for the dead, they are conscious of NOTHING at all. The Catholic
church through all its councils and deliberations has confused HELL or
PURGATORY [ neither word is in the bible, translated or otherwise]
with the common grave, that awaits us all, until God deems otherwise.
Like his incoming new KINGDOM, that we all pray for in the Lords
Prayer, Matthew 6; 9,10.  Is there a separate entity named the SOUL.
not according to Ezekiel 18;4... The soul that is sinning, IT ITSELF
WILL DIE. That indicates that when the word SOUL is mentioned in the
Bible, it refers to the complete living breathing person.  Isaiah
53;12 says " He poured out his soul to the very death". Isaiah 26;14
discredits the idea of ghosts. " They are dead: they will not live.
Impotent in death, they will not rise up".  And Ecclesiastes 9;6 "
Their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished,
and they have no portion anymore TO TIME INDEFINITE in anything that
has to be done under the sun. But hope is held out to us all through
the promised FUTURE resurrection expressed at First Thessalonians
4;13... We do not want you to be ignorant concerning those who are
SLEEPING in death.; that you may not sorrow just as the rest also do
who have no hope. Jesus regarded death as a temporary state that he,
through God`s power, could overcome, just as he did with his friend
Lazarus. To prove who he was. Not God himself but God`s son acting
with God`s power. And there is no conflict with all these scriptures.

Many thanks, Pugwashjw, for your interesting Comment.

Hi PB. Could I ask how direct bible references affect your thoughts 
of the other answers and comments based on the directions coming from
the Catholic church, Vatican 2.