I need a low-cost utility that will work on everything from win95 to
winXP that will allow me to copy an open file.

Different versions for each flavor of OS is OK and so is either a
windows or a dos-based utility.

Where can I find one?

Well, after beating the proverbial bushes for quite some time, I have
come up with the following.

1) There seems to be exactly one program for copying open files. Open
File Manager, from St. Bernard Software (
http://www.stbernard.com/products/docs/ofm_datasheet.pdf )
"Open File Manager (OFM) is software that enables most common backup
software to capture open files - even if the files are changing."
There seems to be a few Backup packages that claim to also have the
feature, but upon closer examination, they all seem to be licensing
the technology from St. Bernard.

2) Open File Manager only supports Windows 2000/NT/XP, and Novell
Netware servers. There's probably something about the NT architecture
that makes this possible.

3) There seems to be nothing available that will copy open files on
Windows 9x/Me systems. (The one exception to this might be if they are
attached to a Novell Network.)

4) Assuming for a moment that this program will do what you want, it's
not cheap. The cheapest I found it was $331 for a 5 license pack. If
you need the Novell version, it's $1195.
Prices are from the St Bernard website. (
https://www.stbernard.com/forms/order_form.asp )

** Stop Press! **

After wandering around the St. Bernard website, I came across this
tidbit in the FAQ for Open File Manager...
( http://www.stbernard.com/products/support/ofm/support_ofm-faqs.asp#10
)

"10. Open File Manager User Interface on Windows 9x/Me - End of Life

The Open File Manager User Interface will no longer be supported on
Windows 9x/Me, beginning with Open File Manager V8.1. Technical
support will continue support for V7.x and V8.0 on this platform, but
no updates will be provided.
At the same time, we are adding Open File Manager support for two new
operating systems.  Open File Manager V8.1 will add support for Novell
NetWare 6.  Microsoft Windows .NET support will be added in about the
same timeframe, as determined by Microsoft's release date."

I'm not sure if this means that V8.0 and earlier worked on Win 9x/Me,
or if there was some kind of separate Control Program you could run on
a 9x/Me box to control the program on the network (presumably the
actual program would be running on one of the supported OS types.)

But, any way you slice it, it looks like OFM is the end-all and be-all
for copying open files.

googlebrain-ga


Search Strategy:

copy "open files"
://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=copy+%22open+files%22

---

Request for Answer Clarification by robharrington-ga on 22 Jun 2002 09:30 PDT

This is what I found also.

I did find a free DOS utility as well called filecopy that says it
works on any version of windows, but I get a runtime error when I try
it.

I did not see the message regarding earlier versions of open file
manager, so perhaps that's the answer to try and get hold of an
earlier version to try on Win98.  Did you find anything on this yet?

---

Clarification of Answer by googlebrain-ga on 22 Jun 2002 14:26 PDT

I've got an information request in with St. Bernards. I'll let ya know
what they say when they get back to me.

googlebrain-ga

---

Clarification of Answer by googlebrain-ga on 24 Jun 2002 12:37 PDT

Well, I received a call today from St. Bernard Software. 

Their program didn't and doesn't support Win 9x/ME. At this point I
have run out of ideas for you. While I know it's impossible to prove a
negative, I'd say that there isn't currently anything that will do
what you need. (Unless, of course, you want to put those machines on a
Novell Network)

I would be more than happy to research the program you found called
"filecopy" if you let me know where you found it. The name is too
generic to search for effectively.

googlebrain-ga

---

Request for Answer Clarification by robharrington-ga on 29 Jun 2002 05:04 PDT

Thank you everyone for your comments - my application is not actually
for backup purposes, but rather to start using information from a file
while it is still being written to. In this case to start playing back
an audio file while it is still recording.

Googlebrain - the filecopy URL is:
http://www.krillagen.com/dosutils.html#FILECOPY

also a comment placed below said we should check out:
www.compuapps.com

---

Clarification of Answer by googlebrain-ga on 02 Jul 2002 15:10 PDT

I get a stack overflow error as well when I try to run this program. 

May I ask, are the recording and playback programs your creations, or
are you using pre-written software.

If you are writing these yourself (or having them written for you) you
may wish to integrate the two programs, and buffer the data to RAM as
well as save it to disk. Then you could play it directly without
fooling around with the filesystem at all.

If the programs you are using are pre-written, I don't think you can
wedge something inbetween them to add this functionality if it doesn't
already exist.

Best of luck.

---

Request for Answer Clarification by robharrington-ga on 04 Jul 2002 04:22 PDT

All the utilities for recording I have tried are prewritten. I have
trie windows media encoder, and another utility called total recorder.
From what I am reading it has something to do with needing to have a
full-duplex sound card. I don't know if there is an easy way to check
if my card is full-duplex though.

---

Clarification of Answer by googlebrain-ga on 04 Jul 2002 09:06 PDT

Well, first you will want to identify your sound card.

http://www.gamevoice.com/support/gvs_support/GVS_help/identify_soundcard.htm

(If you are using Windows XP, Device Manager will be listed under the
Hardware Tab in the Control Panel)

Then, depending on who made it, look for online reviews of this card.
If you don't find the info that way, check out the manufacturers
website. If the information isn't available there, see if they have
contact information, and ask them directly. I'm sure they will be able
to help you determine if the card is full duplex, and how this can be
used to your advantage in playing sounds as they are being downloaded.

Good Luck - googlebrain-ga

This is what I found also.

I did find a free DOS utility as well called filecopy that says it
works on any version of windows, but I get a runtime error when I try
it.

I did not see the message regarding earlier versions of open file
manager, so perhaps that's the answer to try and get hold of an
earlier version to try on Win98.  Did you find anything on this yet?

I'd say it shouldn't be too hard if you're working on a UNIX like
platform though... If it ain't opened for exclusive access (i.e.
locked such that none can read it, which most things don't do, and
those that do, e.g. postgreSQL provide a utility to do so) then you
could just use cp, or if you're backing up, maybe rsync.  BTW, Linux
is a UNIX like platform...

For some reason I feel that I'm leading with my chin here, but I'm
kind of with vandy21-ga. What happened to the dos command "copy"? That
will copy an open file on Win2k, Win9x and ME, just open a comand
promt and type copy fromfile tofile and that's all there is to it.
Granted, this doesn't copy what the file has currently in memory, but
it will access and copy the state it was last saved in.

Someone else comment on this, I'm lost. Too long in Linux land maybe.

webadept-ga

Um, no, there is such a thing as opening a file for exclusive access.
Try copying a SQL Server database file while SQL Server is running,
for example. Software such as Open File Manager create a "virtual
disk" where changes to the open file are written to, while keeping the
original file intact. These changes then have to be committed to the
disk at some point. The software is basically used for backing up
files that are permanently open (such as database files).

I agree that it's easy to copy an open file in Linux. However, the
question specified that they needed to do this under the Windows
family of OS's. Earlier versions of Windows were not conceived as
being multi-user platforms, so that kind of file accessing wasn't
built into the OS like in the UNIX family.

Sory to give it to ya on the chin, webadept-ga, but you've obviously
never had to backup Windows computers that were in use by other
people. (As in a network situation) Early backup software would just
freeze up waiting for the file to become available. Later, software
got smarter, and would skip the open files, and go back and hammer on
them until they became available after the rest of the backup was
done.

Of course, this can all be avoided by throwing everyone off the
network for the duration. This gets you +100 BOFH points, but -10,000
Still-working-here points :)

Additional Links:

BOFH?
http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?String=exact&Acronym=BOFH
http://bofh.ntk.net/Bastard.html

No worries, I don't mind a chin shot this late at night. And you are
right, all my backups ran at night without anyone on the system, now
that I think about it, and Linux, as you say, doesn't have this
problem, so... whack. I knew there was a simple reason for this, and I
was just not seeing it.

Good answer by the way. 

webadept-ga

Hi,

I know backup a windows open file while windows is running is a hard job.

For you the best solution will be compuapps solutions which transfers all data
to a another hard drive in Windows. It copies open files also.

Visit their website at www.compuapps.com

Hi, my concern is not over if such a utility exists, but that such a
utility could be dangerous if it does exists.
 
Files that are kept open by parts of the operating system and
applications are not guaranteed to be synced to disk while the
application has the file open, due to caching and buffering.
 
If you need such a utility for backup purposes, even if one did exist,
I wouldn't use it, since the file on disk can be in a bad state due to
application caching and buffering--until it is truly closed by the
application.
 
In other words, such a utility, circumvents the proper bevhavior of an
application, and is dangerous if used for file restoration.  For
example, consider a multi-user database, being concurrently updated
and accessed.  Circumventing OS behavior will get you into deep
trouble, sure, you might get "lucky" and have no issues a few times,
but sooner or later you'll get orphaned records, corrupted referential
integrity, and corrupted indicies.
 
The OS lock is there for a reason:  file integrity.

Depending upon what you want to accomplish, if it is for backpu
purposes, you'd be better off automatic the application, requesting it
shut-down (releasing its lock(s), perform your backup, and then
restart the app.

Fu-ga