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Subject:
Religion and Reason
Category: Relationships and Society > Religion Asked by: toddwc-ga List Price: $20.00 |
Posted:
12 Mar 2004 22:57 PST
Expires: 11 Apr 2004 23:57 PDT Question ID: 316230 |
Why, in our modern times, where the past 150 years have produced or uncovered more scientific knowledge than perhaps the previous 1,000 years combined, does nearly the entire worldwide human population continue to rely on superstition and mythology -- aka religion -- to answer many of the questions that humans have yet to explain on their own? Using Christianity as an example, its believers rely on events that allegedly occured during a 30-year period more than 2,000 years ago. The Old Testament, of course, is much older. The stories, fables, myths in both books suggest they really are a "handbook" for how humans should live their lives -- essentially a constitution for any civilized society. There certainly were incentives for ensuring society followed these rules, whether to outlaw the killing of another man, keeping husband-wife harmony in place, or discouraging the birth of babies out of wedlock. Of course, politics was behind some of this, especially during the writing of the New Testament in Roman times. Religion is an effective way to soothe the masses and devote their energies elsewhere, instead of complaining to the emperor about high food costs. Given the antiquity of the Bible, why do so many people continue to read it literally rather than appreciate it simply as classic literature that, like all classical literature, can instill timeless wisdom to its readers? Zealouts often respond in similar ways: The Bible is the word of God and we take it literally and on faith. There is no question about God's existence, they would say. I have my faith. Why are there not more efforts afoot to help the world see religion for what it basically is: A hard-wired, evolutionary biological instrument to keep humans sane and as anxiety-free as possible as they look at death (and at much younger ages back then)? Sadly, in the end, religion simply becomes a self-serving charade for many, as they selfishly want to enjoy their eternity in Heaven (where, for some, many willing virgins await them) rather than in Hell. |
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Subject:
Re: Religion and Reason
Answered By: politicalguru-ga on 13 Mar 2004 04:33 PST Rated: |
Dear Tod, This is a very interesting question. Many observers expected that with modernity, the religious dimension would gradually disappear. However, it had not. Some nations are more religious than others, the United States leading as one of the most religious nations on earth, despite being also one of the most modernised ones (it should be mentioned, that religion plays a lesser role in European public life as it is in the United States). There are several answers, given by sociologists of religion, to the question you've asked. First of all, you might have heard the Marxian notion, describing religion as "Opiate of the Masses". Classical Marxian analysis sees religion, or religious belief, as derivatives of the cultural hegemony of the leading classes - using religion to abstract the masses' mind of their deprivation, discrimination and exploitation. Religion, in this view, is a tool. A tool by the ruling elite to control the people, to gain legitimacy and to repress any revolutionary thought against the current social order. [See: Karl Marx, Contribution to the Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right Deutsch-Französische Jahrbücher, February, 1844: at Baylor University Website, <http://www3.baylor.edu/~Scott_Moore/texts/Marx_Opium.html>] Amanda Udis-Kessler's essay on "MARX AND WEBER ON RELIGION" mentions: "Opium, of course, provides only temporary relief for suffering, and does so by blunting the senses. In making suffering bearable, Marx argues, opium (and religion) actually can actually be said to be contributing to human suffering by removing the impetus to do whatever is necessary to overcome it ? which, for Marx, is to relinquish religion and turn to revolutionary politics. Hamilton (1995: 82-3) points out the ultimate practical outcome of religion?s palliative function, from a Marxian perspective: ?Religion offers compensation for the hardships of this life in some future life, but it makes such compensation conditional upon acceptance of the injustices of this life.? (SOURCE: Amanda Udis-Kessler, 2001, "MARX AND WEBER ON RELIGION", Grinnell College, <http://web.grinnell.edu/courses/soc/f01/soc295-02/marx_weber.html>). There are other explanations that rely on the premises that religion serves as a compensatory factor to understand unexplainable aspects of our life. Religion serves as a psychological - but also as a collective - compensator for the hardships of life and in order to understand and explain the unexplained. If the Marxian analysis is basically focused on the role that religion plays in the capitalist repression, other explanations (Freud, for example) centralise on psychological explanations. Religion also serves to provide people with identity and sense of belonging. The French sociologist Emile Durkheim wrote, before theories about the construction of identity became popular, that "religious beliefs and practices concerning the sacred sustain social integration and form the matrix for our central categories of thinking" (SOURCE: Donald A. Nielsen, "THEORY", in: Encyclopaedia of Religion and Society 1997 edited by William H. Swatos, Jr., at the Hartford Institute for Religion Research Website, <http://hirr.hartsem.edu/ency/Theory.htm>). The sociologist Thomas Luckmann checked this question exactly, in relation to the flourishing religious beliefs in the United States and other countries. In his opinion, there was actually never a real "secularisation" of the society, as the need in belief and in as holistic "world view" is strong as ever in a complexing world as the modern one. However, form have changed and now religion, instead of being an "institutionalised", state-sponsored religion, religion is privatised and even "sold" as capitalist merchandise. Religion, in this aspect is not contrary to modernity, it changes with the time. These are only partial answers: the sociology of religion is yet to produce a convincing, all-embracing, explanation on religious life in the modern (or even "post-modern") world, and maybe there isn't just one answer to this phenomenon. It could be said, that people convert, because they seek meaning, identity, community and a holistic world-view. People stay religious because they would like to preserve their identity, their world, and their community. Of course, people are subjected to structural conditions: the stress that the modern society produces, the alienation that ones feel in this society, manipulation by economic, political and societal forces that lad them to religious life or maintain them there. Further Reading =============== Religion, Modernity and Post modernity (eds.: Paul Heelas, David Martin and Paul Morris). [A book] Christian Faith and Postmodernity http://www3.baylor.edu/~Scott_Moore/Xnty_Pmism.html An Index of WWW Resources God Is Dead: Secularization in the West (Religion in the Modern World) - by Steve Bruce - Bruce claims in this book that "Modernization has caused religion to change in such ways that it has lost its social significance. As Bruce argues, "Individualism, diversity and egalitarianism in the context of liberal democracy undermine the authority of religious beliefs," making belief in God a personal option rather than a compelling necessity. Opponents to the secularization argument (chiefly Rodney Stark) point to the strength of religion in America." (SOURCE: Amazon review, <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0631232753/qid=1079180234/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/104-9868032-1220767?v=glance&s=books>). The Desecularization of the World: Resurgent Religion and World Politics by Peter L. Berger (Editor), Jonathan Sacks (Editor), David Martin (Contributor), Tu Weiming (Editor), George Weigel (Editor), Grace Davie (Contributor), Abdullahi A. An-Naim (Editor) Read interesting reviews on Amazon: <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0802846912/qid=1079180234/sr=1-10/ref=sr_1_10/104-9868032-1220767?v=glance&s=books>. There is actually a lot of material about this issue, and it is hard to embrace all of it. This is an answer I recently gave, where the issue of "why people *don't* believe" have risen: How does one enter heaven? Who is God? <https://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=312705> As for research fro this answer, I am a postgraduate of sociology of religion, but I have also searched for some terms mentioned here. I hope this answered your question and provided some perspective as of why people continue to believe in the Bible. However, I do hope that others would add (in the comment section) their own personal perspective. It might not be a researched answer like mine, but I think you might be interested to read personal ideas, as it seems that your question is also a polemic one: you want to hear from a believer (which I am not) why they believe. Please contact me if you need any clarification on this answer before you rate it. |
toddwc-ga rated this answer: |
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Subject:
Re: Religion and Reason
From: pugwashjw-ga on 14 Mar 2004 21:52 PST |
Hi Toddwc. Your question and comments mixes the Bible with virgins in heaven. The latter applies only to the beliefs of Islam. Point two is..Who defined how we should live our lives. The Bible simply sets out the rules, that if we follow them, we can live in peace. It is because we have failed to follow those rules that we are in our present woeful situation of non-peace. The Bible says that those rules were set by God. Every character mentioned in the Bible either obeyed God or did not. Those who did benefited greatly [Noah and his family survived the flood. The rest did not][Genesis chapter 7] . An example of one who did not, was Nimrod [ Genesis 10;8].."He displayed himself a mighty hunter IN OPPOSITION to God. One who complied with God`s laws was Abram/Abraham. How Abraham was blessed by God for obedience is at Genesis 12;2..And I shall make a great nation out of you and I shall bless you and I will make your name great, and prove yourself a blessing,3. And I will bless those who bless you, AND HIM THAT CALLS DOWN EVIL UPON YOU I SHALL CURSE. God is not all-loving all the time if we disobey. There is a price to pay. Is there any other book from antiquity that has survived..No...Why? God promised that His word would be protected. Deuteronomy 4;2..You must not add to the word that I am commanding you, neither must you take away from it. Only an eternally existing God could back up this requirement. |
Subject:
Re: Religion and Reason
From: toddwc-ga on 14 Mar 2004 22:11 PST |
First, I did not mix the Bible with Islam. The entire question deals with religion in general. Second, you have little proof that those stories were true. If it was God's bible, he must have had many people working for them as they decided which books to include and which to exclude. I'm happy to quote stories -- page and line number -- from Hawthorne, Poe, Hemingway, Tolstoy and others when debating issues of the day. But my quoting them doesn't make it any more possible that the fiction is fact. I also question your assertion that no other book from antiquity has survived. We have many books originally written in Greece and Rome. Some of them sit next to my copy of the Bible. |
Subject:
Re: Religion and Reason
From: pugwashjw-ga on 15 Mar 2004 01:16 PST |
for Toddwc; Your question did mention both the old testament and virgin though. I have only the Bible to answer your queries. But it really is up to you to read them. You do have the choice whether to accept what is written or reject it. Firstly, in my case, I follow what second Timothy 2;15 says...Do your utmost to present yourself approved to God, a workman with nothing to be ashamed of, HANDLING THE WORD OF TRUTH ARIGHT. And what do I handle..Second Timothy 3;14-17. Where verse 16 says.."All scripture is inspired of God, and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17. That the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work". Titus 1;2 says that God cannot lie. If the Bible is God`s word to us, then it must be true. A Book that promotes Love cannot be all bad. Hebrews 3;12 warns" Beware!, Brothers, for fear there should ever develop in any one of you a wicked heart, lacking faith by drawing AWAY from the living God. The Bible contains hundreds of prophecies relating to ancient days, [ the Jews freed by Cyrus, a non jew but named in the Bible]about Jesus [ Proverbs 22-36..written before Jesus was born, written by King Solomon ] and about man`s future. Psalms 46;9...He is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth. This is yet to be fulfilled. And Psalm 37; 9,10,11 and 12 tell of the bleak future of those who take no notice. My own aim is expressed at Psalm 40;8.." To do your will, Oh! my god, I have delighted, and your law is within my inward parts". The philosophical writers, Poe, Hemingway and Tolstoy, ALL NOW DEAD, cannot offer me what God has at Revelation 20;4. No more pain, sorrow DEATH or mourning. God told John at verse 5 " Write, because these words are faithful and true. |
Subject:
Re: Religion and Reason
From: toddwc-ga on 15 Mar 2004 08:14 PST |
Quoting the Bible to prove your points is a circular argument. |
Subject:
Re: Religion and Reason
From: pugwashjw-ga on 17 Mar 2004 06:15 PST |
Hi Toddwc..back again..This is where faith comes in. The definition, also stated in the bible [Hebrews 11;1] Faith is the assured [guaranteed] expectation [hope] of things hoped for [wanted] , the evident demonstration [actual happening] of realities [things you can see and touch] though not beheld [ hasn`t happened yet]. Its a readiness to believe something. And when the Bible, through various writers, state various geographical truths, like the shape of the earth seen from space..Job 25;7..He is stretching out the north over the empty place, hanging the earth upon nothing. Verse 10..He has described a circle upon the face of the waters... A good description of the curved watery surface of the earth. Isaiah 40;22..There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers. Another describes the earths water cycle..Isaiah 55;10. For just as the pouring rain, and the snow, from the heavens, and does not return to that place...unless it actually saturates the earth and makes it produce and sprout...Its not a geographical texr book, but it does state the truth about our earth. Why then would it mis-lead us about God`s purpose. It is His word to us. |
Subject:
Re: Religion and Reason
From: toddwc-ga on 18 Mar 2004 14:57 PST |
Thanks for the geography and science lessons. There are many facts in the Harry Potter books, too, but that still doesn't mean I can fly around on broomsticks. |
Subject:
Re: Religion and Reason
From: pugwashjw-ga on 20 Mar 2004 22:44 PST |
Hi again toddwc. Hope you dont mind me getting back to you. but the Potter books were written by a person with imagination, which God gave us anyway. What would be amazing if that 40 different people over the course of 1600 years, all wrote books with the same THEME. That`s what the Bible consists of. The bible warns us of the outcome of those using spiritistic practises. These are backed by Satan`s powers. Ordinary men are unable to perform true magic tricks, but Satan can and He makes it seem as though it is men that are doing so. A bible example is in Exodus chapter 7, when Moses was asking Pharoah to let the Hebrews free. In verses 10,11 and 12, Aaron threw down his rod and it became a snake,through God`s power, not his own. The "Magic Practising" priests of Egypt, were able to do the same, with Satan`s power, BUT, God being greater in power, "Aaron`s rod swallowed up their rods". In verses 20 to 22, the priest`s tricks again matched Moses, [ the river of blood]. Again in chapter 8 verses 6 & 7, the priests matched the plague of frogs. But in verses 17 and 18, they could not match the plague of gnats. Then gadflies. Then a "heavy pestilence" on the livestock of the Egyptians ONLY. The bible says it did not affect the livestock of the Hebrews. Surely everyone had the same type of cattle and sheep. The separation shows it was not just a natural pestilence or disease that just happened to strike Egypt at that time. It was the hand of God. What I have done here is to simply point out the scriptures. Proverbs 9;7&8 warn ME..."He that is correcting the ridiculer is taking to himself, dishonour. and he that is giving reproof to someone wicked, a defect in him [ME]. 9. Do not reprove a ridiculer, that he may not hate you. Give a reproof to a wise person and he will love you [ agape love that is] . the fear of God is the start of wisdom [Prov.9;10] |
Subject:
Re: Religion and Reason
From: iambemused-ga on 03 May 2004 01:44 PDT |
An interesting question and a well-reasoned answer. Perhaps it would be worth doing further research on the simple answer of "apathy"...? Ignoring the relative merits of whether there is or is not a God figure so that the debate does not get leveraged down that pathway... There are possibly many reasons from the point of view of a society why a past belief would be retained in the face of changes to levels of understanding and unwinding of great mysteries. However, my carefully unresearched initial thought would be that most people would continue to act this way for the following reasons: 1. Their parents have told them that they should 2. Their friends or peer group have reinforced that viewpoint 3. They have never been taught to think outside of those boundaries 4. It is easier to adopt a black and white position than it is to think through the difficulties of the grey. To test this, simply think through the demographics of particular religious beliefs... The major religions tend to be gathered in particular areas where they have fostered after some initial conversion process (whether by the sword, colonisation or simple conversion by discussion or imitation)... If there was more to it than that then it would be reasonable to see a larger level of diversity within geographical boundaries. It would also be reasonable to see a changing level of participation according to advances in understanding or as a result of logical debate... Sadly, neither appears to occur nor does it appear that such a process is likely. Therefore, continuous scientific advancement or adacemic understanding are of themselves unlikely to lead to a larger proportion of people moving away from any particular religious belief. |
Subject:
Re: Religion and Reason
From: smittybroham-ga on 06 May 2004 09:12 PDT |
Reading through the comments and replies thus far, I'm curious, what scientific knowledge are you referring to that we have obtained in the last 150 years can be pointed to when it comes to debunking the "myth" of religion, specifically Christianity. When one says "religion" one can't help but envisage an onslaught of stuffy traditions and certifiable myths, as you rightly point out, however, what makes Christianity unique among "religion" is that its Holy Book has been historically verified using the same scientific knowledge you so adamantly insist discredits it, its internal prophetic accuracy has a record of 100% satisfaction which would put even the likes of Madam Cleo to shame, its future analysis of world events only becomes truer with each passing day (i.e. Middle East situation w/ peripheral events all coming together to fulfill the remaining prophecy yet to be completed), and its Savior's grave is EMPTY. So again, I ask, what scientific knowledge do we have that makes the Bible less true today than when it was written? You accuse the believers in Christ of relying on events that occurred during a 30 year time spam over 2000 years ago. Do historic events somehow become more false as time goes by? Will WWI and WWII simply become epic novels of mythical battles given 1500 years or so? I don't know what to tell you Todd, if one of your major criticisms of Christianity is that Christ was born too long ago for your liking, I would hope you at least realize the juvenile logic your case is resting on. There is not a historian worth their title today that would deny Jesus Christ was a real man that really lived 2000 years ago (although that is all many seem to get right), so if you are implying that because Jesus lived 2000 years ago nothing He said, taught, commanded applies is a very weak indeed. Jesus Christ spoke about Spiritual matters which transcend time and therefore, do not expire or become obsolete with the passing of time. Jesus' emphasis was on eternal salvation/damnation and other truths that affect every living soul, not the present-day economy of ancient Palestine so exactly what parts of Christ's wisdom should we check the expiration date on and throw out? Further down in your exchange, you accuse the commenter of having little proof the Bible's stories are true. There is a good deal of proof the Bible's stories are true, I would be happy to go over each with you either on this board or through email directly for more in depth and organized correspondence. You then go on to say that God must have had many people working for Him if the Bible is His. Umm, I guess so. If the Almighty God can create a universe and populate it, why wouldn't he be able to inspire the recording of His word for us to live by? Questioning the probability of a Greater Force by using an instance of a lesser event is not logical. Next, I don't understand why you would use the example of fiction not becoming fact simply because you can quote the fiction. If you believe that to be a valid argument against a Christian citing verse references in the Scriptures, you have missed the whole point! The ability to organize text into searchable snippets is hardly the evidence a Christian relies on to confirm the Bible is truth. You point out that quoting the Bible to prove points (that the Bible is true, I'm assuming) is "a circular argument". It might be viewed that way from one who does not recognize the authority of Scripture, so I'll respond to that in this way . . . it is no more circular than you're discounting Christianity as mythical by using your own a priori opinions seen here: "Why . . . does nearly the entire worldwide human population continue to rely on superstition and mythology . . ." "The stories, fables, myths in both books . . ." "Why are there not more efforts afoot to help the world see religion for what it basically is: A hard-wired, evolutionary biological instrument to keep humans sane and as anxiety-free as possible as they look at death . . ." ". . . religion simply becomes a self-serving charade . . ." You did not reference one tangible scrap of evidence to support your predetermined opinion of Christianity I can turn to if your goal is to dissuade me from believing it is true. So to answer your question, perhaps for this reason among many others, so many people today, praise to God, are not being "cheated through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." - Col. 2:8. Much of what was nut shelled in this response can be greatly expanded on should you be sincere. |
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