This question relates to an apparent mystery concerning the death of
General McNair, Chief of the US Ground Forces in World War ll. General
McNair is reported to have died (google) by friendly fire in
conjuction with Operation Cobra on July 25, 1944. McNair succeeded
Patton as head of the imaginary First US Army Group (FUSAG). This
organization successfully fooled Hitler with the consequence being
that the German 15th Army was pinned down near Calais while the US
invaded Normandy. I understand that his death was classified "secret"
as the ruse was working so well! Now, Here is my question: In the
first part of 1945, I was in a Repot Depot called Camp Twenty Grand
awaiting my unit's transfer to the front lines (We were assigned to
the 9th US Army). The troops were called to attention as we were to be
reviewed the General of the US Army Ground Forces. We were told that
he was General McNair! The name meant nothing to me at the time until
he stopped in front of me and looked me in the eye! He was a four star
general(not three stars) and he was the only officer above a bird
colonel that I have ever seen todate. So,he made a lasting impression!
Several weeks after my encounter with the general, I read in the Stars
and Stripes that the general was killed in action. I have just
finished reading Stanley P. Hirshon's 'General Patton, A Soldier's
Life" and he reported the same facts that Google dug up. I was
convinced that he made a simple error in dates and rank. However,
Google confirmed his facts! I am quite certain that the general that
stopped in front of me in 1945 was identified as general McNair and
that no other general by that name was head of the US Ground Forces in
WWll. Question: How could I possbly encounter Gen. McNair almost a
year after his death?
This just an aside; About thirty five years ago I was in France and
there was a similar organization Called Si Vous Plait. I visited the
Managing Director of SVP in Paris and learned that it was a
subscription service that provided answers to its clients for a fee.
They had on call (part time) hundreds of teachers that did research on
particular subjects. They had the same constraints as Google and
charged by the time an expertize of the research |
Request for Question Clarification by
nancylynn-ga
on
15 Mar 2004 10:08 PST
Hello dick32-ga:
I've never been able to resist a mystery and yours is a doozy!
I'm just letting you know that everything I've found re: General
Lesley (sometimes misspelled as "Leslie") McNair validates that he was
killed at Normandy in 1944. In fact, McNair was the highest-ranking
American officer killed in WW II.
McNair had a son in the army, but he, too, was killed in 1944.
I can't find anything to suggest that McNair wasn't actually killed in
Operation Cobra, Normandy, in July 1944; that his death was a ruse of
some sort.
I am going to attempt to contact some historians who've written about
Camp Twenty Grand to see if they've ever come across accounts or
claims like yours, from veterans who are convinced they encountered
General McNair after 1944.
I'm now getting caught up in this myself and am intrigued to know if
McNair's death at Normandy was "faked," and if so, WHY??
I will post any information I find, or anything I hear back from historians.
In the meantime, perhaps another researcher can solve this mystery for you.
Regards,
nancylynn-ga
P.S. Thanks for the info about SVP in Paris. I'm sure my colleagues
are getting a kick out of that, too!
|
Request for Question Clarification by
pafalafa-ga
on
15 Mar 2004 11:31 PST
Hello there,
Besides McNair, and MacArthur, there were quite a number of Mc and Mac
Generals in WWII. To name just a few (out of a l-o-o-o-n-g list),
there was:
MacNider
McCabe
McKay
McLain
McMahon
McNaught
McNeil
As far as I can tell, however, there was only one General McNair.
Is it possible that your eye-to-eye meeting was with one of these
other distinguished McGenerals, rather than with the (apparently)
deceased McNair?
Let us know what you think.
Thanks.
|
Request for Question Clarification by
nancylynn-ga
on
15 Mar 2004 13:08 PST
Hello again:
You wrote:
"In the first part of 1945, I was in a Repot Depot called Camp Twenty Grand
awaiting my unit's transfer to the front lines . . . ."
Could you please clarify how early in 1945? Was it before V-E Day?
I have found one person who's posted memoirs about his stint with the
355th Infantry Regt. which oversaw Camp Twenty Grand from V-E Day (May
8, 1945) until Nov. 1, 1945.
Do you recall which month or months of 1945 you spent at Camp Twenty Grand/
Thanks,
nancylynn-ga
|
Clarification of Question by
dick32-ga
on
15 Mar 2004 16:58 PST
Hi pafalafa-ga
I have absolutely no doubt that General McNair was killed by friendly
fire in Normandy in 1944! The question that naturally ccmes to my mind
was why the ruse was continued until 1945? After all, Gen. McNair had
a family and surely they should have been notified of his death in
1944. I do recall reading in the sevice newspaper " Stars and
Stripes" that General McNair was killed in action a few weeks after
his visit with us at Camp Twenty Grand in 1945!!! Can you research
back issues of the Stars and Stripes?
Good luck!
dick3
|
Request for Question Clarification by
pafalafa-ga
on
15 Mar 2004 17:12 PST
General McNair's death was widely reported in the newspapers in 1944,
and there's no indiciation I've seen that the ruse was continued after
his death...indeed, how could it be, if his death was widely known.
While I don't have back access to Stars and Stripes, I can access
dozens of major and not-so-major newspapers of the day. His death was
widely reported.
I cannot post the articles I found here since they are protected by
copyright. However, I'd be glad to do two things for you, if they
would be of interest:
--post summaries of the stories regarding the death of General McNair,
and the follow-up stories regarding the honors bestowed to him and to
his wife after his death, and the subsequent death of his son. Of
particular note, the General's design of a training program for new
recruits was broadly credited with helping America win the war.
--post instructions for how you can access the newspaper articles
yourself. There is generally a fee for this (usually about $2 or $3
per article) although many local libraries may be able to get you
copies of the articles at no charge.
Let me know if this type of information would be of interest to you as
an answer to your question.
Also keep in mind that you are more than welcome to re-price your
question if you so desire, since the information being offered is not
quite what you originally asked for.
Let me know what you think.
pafalafa-ga
|
Clarification of Question by
dick32-ga
on
15 Mar 2004 17:14 PST
nancylynn-ga
Sorry I missed the request for clarification.
I believe that I was in Camp Twenty Grand some time in the month of
February 1945 (about 4-5 months before VE day).
I have absolutely no doubt that General McNair was killed by friendly
fire in Normandy in 1944. The question in my mind was why the ruse was
continued until 1945 during the last stages of the Battle of the
Bulge? I do recall reading in the service newspaper " The Stars and
Stripes" that Gen. McNair was killed in action in 1945 (a few weeks
after his visit).
Good luck!
dick32
|
Clarification of Question by
dick32-ga
on
15 Mar 2004 17:28 PST
nancylynn-ga
The reason that McNair's death was classified secret is that the
allies did not wish to blow the cover on the FUSAG deception. It was
working beyond their fondest dreams as the German 15th Army was kept
near Calais during the entire Normandy campaign!
We were told that the individual was General McNair, Chief or the Army
Ground Forces. There was only one Chief in 1944 and he was Gen McNair.
I am positive that we were told that his name was McNair as that name
stuck with me throughout the years. To sum up McNair was indeed the
Chief of the Army Groud Forces.
dick3
|
Request for Question Clarification by
pafalafa-ga
on
15 Mar 2004 19:34 PST
The Salisbury Times (Md.) newspaper from July 27, 1944 is a dramatic
snapshot of WWII in the European and Pacific theaters.
The major headline of the day is:
Lt.-Gen McNair Killed in France;
Soviets Cross Wisla, Near Warsaw
The article begins:
"Lt. Gen. Lesley J McNair, former commander of the Army ground forces,
has been killed in Normandy..."
Oddly enough, McNair had only been replaced a few weeks earlier as
commander of the ground forces by Lt. Gen. Ben Lear:
"On July 14, the Army announced that McNair had been given an
important overseas assignment, the nature of which was not disclosed,
and that Lt. Gen Ben Lear had succeeded him..."
This is just speculation on my part, but it seems possible, at least,
that McNair's death occured earlier, and that the July 14th
announcement was just a cover-up. But by July 27, 1944, the news of
his death was obviously very public.
==========
Some of the other headlines and captions of the day were:
--The Dangerous Road To St. Lo
--Task Force's Blow Wrecks Sabang Port
--U.S. Tanks Gain Three Miles in Normandy Offensive
--Yanks Win Tinian Airfield, Wrest Half of Guam From Japs
--Nazis Battle To Hold Pisa
--193 Nazi Planes Bagged In 3 Days
It's an almost breathless feeling to read it all...it was an era like
none other. You deserve the nation's (and the world's) thanks for the
part you played.
Let Nancylynn and I know how you would like to proceed on all this.
pafalafa-ga
|
Request for Question Clarification by
pafalafa-ga
on
15 Mar 2004 20:21 PST
P.S. It wasn't until August 3, 1944 that the news was made public
that McNair was killed by a bomb from a US plane that fell short of
its target -- what we would today call "friendly fire".
|
Clarification of Question by
dick32-ga
on
16 Mar 2004 08:47 PST
pafalafa-ga
I prefer to confine my question to the circumstances surrounding the
"stand-in" for Gen. McNair.
Regarding the issue off the reports announcing the death of Gen.
McNair in 1944. The question is how soon after his death were these
announcements made? Was it during the Normandy campaign or after? The
purpose of the deception was to keep the German 15th Army pinned down
in Calais and away from Normandy!
Good Luck!
dick32
|
Request for Question Clarification by
pafalafa-ga
on
16 Mar 2004 09:30 PST
Hello again.
Here is a bit of information I found on McNair and FUSAG, referred to
at this site as "Operation Fortitude" although I've elsewhere seen it
as "Operation Quicksilver".
=====
http://denbeste.nu/cd_log_entries/2002/02/fog0000000398.shtml
After Patton was transferred to the Normandy area to command Third
Army, General Leslie McNair was brought in from Washington to "assume
command" of FUSAG. McNair was chief of all US Army ground forces; it
was natural that FUSAG should have a commander of such stature.
McNair was visiting the front in Normandy to observe the saturation
bombing which began Operation Cobra (the "breakout") and was killed by
friendly fire there. After that, Fortitude was no longer needed and
was allowed to quietly die.
=====
I haven't seen anything to even hint at a possible delay in the news
of McNair's death. From all appearances, he was killed in the errant
bombing strike of 7/25/44 (along with about 600 GI's by the way -- it
was a very serious friendly fire incident). The news was made public
just a few days later, on July 27.
It's hard to imagine any sort of deception (except, perhaps, a local
practical joke) that attempted to make it seem as if Gen. McNair was
still alive in 1945, since the news of his death was so widely
reported in 1944.
Is it possible that someone was playing a prank on you in the waning days of WWII?
|
Request for Question Clarification by
nancylynn-ga
on
16 Mar 2004 15:08 PST
Hello Dick:
Like pafalafa-ga, I found nothing to suggest that McNair's death was
covered up, or that the announcement of his death was delayed. By
1945, the time you "met" him, his death was widely known, as was the
death of his son.
I think some of the soldiers at Camp Twenty Grand were playing a prank
and telling newbies like yourself that so-and-so was General McNair.
As I mentioned earlier, I have found one person who was with the
355th Infantry Regt. which oversaw Camp Twenty Grand from V-E Day (May
8, 1945) until Nov. 1, 1945. But the 355th came in after you were at the camp.
Do you remember which unit was running Camp Twenty Grand when you were there?
I could try to contact someone from that unit to inquire if the
military indeed had a stand-in; or if indeed this was some sort of
prank involving someone being passed off as "General McNair."
I will also try to contact historians who've written about FUSAG to
see if they know anything about a "stand-in" for McNair following his
death, or any sort of mystery regarding his death.
nancylynn-ga
|
Clarification of Question by
dick32-ga
on
17 Mar 2004 22:56 PST
It has been suggested that the encounter at Camp Twent Grand was an
attempt at fooling new arrivals at the camp by some sort of
impersonation of Gen. McNair. Impersonating a four star general, in
time of war, is a very serious court martial offense. I very nuch
doubt that scenario as the review, as I remember it, was of thousands
of assembled troops. A four star helmet would not be easy to procure!
I would like to pose this question of Gen. McNair's death o the author
of "General Patton, A Soldier's Life". He appears to be well informed
on the subject. Do you know how I can get his email address? He is
Stanley P. Hirshson a professor of history at Queens College and the
Graduate Center of the City University of New York.
dick3
|
Request for Question Clarification by
pinkfreud-ga
on
17 Mar 2004 23:18 PST
Regarding your desire to contact Stanley P. Hirshson, here is some sad news:
"Stanley Hirshson (History) passed away on December 26 [2003] after a
brief illness... At the time of his death, he was working on a
biography of General George Marshall. He is survived by his wife and a
son. Donations in Hirshson?s memory may be sent to the Patient-Family
Assistance Fund at the Cancer Center at Hackensack Hospital, ATTN:
JoAnn Lawrence, 20 Prospect Ave., Hackensack, NJ 07601."
http://www.qc.edu/nis/fyi/FYI_February04.pdf
|
Request for Question Clarification by
nancylynn-ga
on
18 Mar 2004 04:48 PST
Hi Dick:
I am attempting to contact the author of an acclaimed book about
FUSAG. I have also contacted a publishing outfit that has published
memoirs about the cigarette camps, including Twenty Grand.
Like pafalafa-ga, I have found evidence that McNair's death was widely
reported, including in the American newspapers, two days after he was
killed at Normandy in 1944. So, your mystery is truly baffling!
Your comment re: this having been a practical joke:
"I very nuch doubt that scenario, as the review, as I remember it, was
of thousands of assembled troops. A four star helmet would not be easy
to procure!"
pafalafa-ga and I had meant, maybe some of the guys at camp had
whispered to your unit, "Hey, that's General McNair." That sort of
thing. But you recall this general as presenting himself to you as
General McNair? Also, I hadn't realized this review was so enormous --
thousands of troops!
All I can do is wait for historians to get back to me, which may take
awhile. I will also contact some more historians to see if we can get
to the bottom of this.
nancylynn-ga
|
Request for Question Clarification by
pafalafa-ga
on
18 Mar 2004 07:58 PST
Hello again, Dick32-ga,
As you can probably tell, this question has gotten under my skin, a
bit, and probably the same can be said for NancyLynn.
Let's back up a bit, and see if we can clarify a few things:
--Gen. McNair's successor was Gen. Ben Lear. Is it possible that
someone said something like: "That's General Ben Lear" and it may
have sounded to you like "That's General McNair"? Say the phrases
quickly enough, and they do sort of sound alike? (As you said, the
names at the time "meant nothing" to you, so it seems possible they
were misheard).
--Some of the newspaper pages I pulled up had photgraphs of McNair and
(I think) Gen. Lear as well. If you saw photos of these gentlemen, is
there any chance you might recognize the face that looked you in the
eye several decades ago?
--I'm confused about the time sequence? McNair's death was widely,
publicly reported in July 1944. Yet you wrote about reading about his
death in Stars and Stripes in 1945 as if it had just then occured. If
the troop review you remember had been in February/March of *1944*,
then the news a few months later about McNair's death would make
perfect sense. But pushing it up to 1945 is -- I suppose -- what
makes this all a big mystery. Can you shed any light on this?
--It *is* possible to search back issues of the Stars and Stripes.
Some libraries carry the newspaper on microfilm -- if you tell me what
state/city you're in, I can see if a library might have them in your
area. Alternatively, the Stars and Stripes itself, will conduct the
research for you, but it's rather costly. Let me know if this option
is of interest to you.
Wish I could give you a definitive answer here, but I'm too busy
wading through my own confusion on all this. But I'm certainly
willing to keep plugging away. So tell me anything you can re: the
above questions, and Nancy and I will do our best.
pafalafa-ga
|
Clarification of Question by
dick32-ga
on
18 Mar 2004 10:32 PST
Hi Nancylynn-ga & pafalafa-ga!
Clarification? I have photographs of both Gen. McNair and Gen. Ben
Lear in front of me! They are from Prof. Hirshson"s book about Gen.
Patton. Needless to say they do not look familiar to me. When a four
star general stands before you while you are standing at attention you
do not have the opportunity or inclination to study his face! All you
see are four stars on a steel helmet!
I am sorry to learn about Prof. Hirshson's death. That closes one
avenue of discovery.
I do remember reading about Gen. McNair in the Stars and Stripes after
my encounter with him. I should like to personally pursue research on
back issues (microfilm) of the Stars and Stripes. I am located in
Woodside, California 94062 not far from the Stanford University
Library. I would be willing to aggressively pursue this question of
1945 vs. 1944.
Thanks for your help!
Dick Frankel (dick32
|
Request for Question Clarification by
nancylynn-ga
on
18 Mar 2004 15:20 PST
Hi Dick:
First, the publishers of a newsletter for the 89th Infantry have
offered to publish your query in their April newsletter for veterans
of the 89th Infantry. One section of the newsletter/site is devoted to
Repot/cigarette camps.
Most of the 89th wound up at Camp Lucky Strike, but a few, such as the
gentleman who submitted this memoir:
http://www.89infdivww2.org/memories/astpstory11.htm
were at Camp Twenty Grand.
I contacted the gentlemen who run the site and newsletter, and they
have kindly offered to put an item about your mystery in their next
newsletter. One of the veterans who reads that newsletter, or who
visits the site, may remember this incident too -- it's worth a
chance.
You can reach the publisher of the newsletter, Mark Kitchell, via
contact info at this page:
http://www.89infdivww2.org/home/webmaster.htm
Also, is it possible you encountered McNair PRIOR to Operation Cobra
in 1944? Were you at another cigarette camp prior to Camp Twenty Grand
in 1945? You really do seem quite certain, though, that it was Camp
Twenty Grand in early 1945.
Like my friend pafalafa, I certainly want to do all I can to assist
you. Again, I am contacting some experts on FUSAG, and I'll try to
hunt down some historians/veterans from the 9th Army (that was your
division, correct?) and some other veterans who went through Camp
Twenty Grand around the same time you did.
Sooner or later, we'll figure this out!
nancylynn-ga
|
Request for Question Clarification by
pafalafa-ga
on
18 Mar 2004 17:03 PST
Regarding your earlier question about who has old copies of Stars and
Stripes, I'm afraid the nearest library that shows up is in Los
Angeles...not very convenient, I'm afraid. However, I have a query in
to S&S themselves, to see what other options may be available. I'll
let you know what turns up.
Between Nancy and myself, I'm sure we'll uncover something. Keep your
fingers crossed.
pafalafa-ga
|
Clarification of Question by
dick32-ga
on
18 Mar 2004 21:40 PST
Dear Nancy & pafalafa-ga
Twenty Grand was the only Repot Depot that I am familiar with. I was
in the States with both the Engineers and Infantry in 1944. On no
occaision did I have contact, direct or indirect, with Gen McNair
before 1945.
Which library in LA has microfilms of S&S?
Dick
|
Request for Question Clarification by
pafalafa-ga
on
19 Mar 2004 15:00 PST
Dick,
The Los Angeles Public Library has Stars and Stripes on microfilm....I
confirmed this with the librarian there, who also said that microfilm
is not available through inter-library loan, so the only way to have a
look at it is to visit the LA library itself. You can email the
library at:
infonow@lapl.org
if you have any questions.
I also had hoped to hear back from S&S today, but it looks like I'll
probably have to wait until next week to close the loop with them.
I'll let you know what I find out.
Have a good weekend.
pafalafa-ga
if you have any questions.
|
Clarification of Question by
dick32-ga
on
20 Mar 2004 10:50 PST
Nancylynn-ga and Pafalafa-ga
I can report some questionable progress.
The local Woodside library informed me that the Hoover Institute
library on the Stanford campus has printed issues of the Stars and
Stripes covering the period of interest! Yesterday afternoon at 1:00pm
I visited the Hoover Institute and asked for the February and March
1945 issues of the Pais edidtion of the S&S. Before I knew it, the
library announced its closure at 5:00pm! I perused the entire Feb
editions and got as far as March 20, 1945 without any reference to
Gen. McNair (I did read about Lt. Gen Ben Lear). I shall return to
the Hoover Library next week and try to cover Jan. and the remainder
of March plus April 1945.
I shall keep you posted.
Dic
|
Request for Question Clarification by
pafalafa-ga
on
20 Mar 2004 14:07 PST
Hey Dick,
That's great news. I wouldn't call it questionable progress at
all...the S&S collection at Stanford was not listed in the two
librarian databases I consulted, so finding it right in your backyard
is a stroke of great luck.
I'll continue to pursue my own conversation with the current staff at
S&S, and we'll see where it all leads.
Promise me (and Nancy too) that you'll let us know what you uncover!
pafalafa-ga
|
Clarification of Question by
dick32-ga
on
20 Mar 2004 17:23 PST
Hi nancylynn-ga & pafalafa-ga
Another tidbit: Carlo D'Este's book "Decision in Normandy" has the
footnote " McNair was buried in strictest secrecy, attended only by
general oficers in order to avoid any compromise of Fortitude".
Dick
|
Request for Question Clarification by
pafalafa-ga
on
20 Mar 2004 20:46 PST
Hi. It's almost midnight here (I'm in Washington DC), but I'm still
plugging away at this d**med question of yours.
I came across two documents that you may have seen already, but if
not, they should be of interest.
The first is the official report of the push into France by General Eisenhower:
Report by the Supreme Commander to the Combined Chiefs of Staff on the
Operations in Europe of the Allied Expeditionary Force, 6 June 1944 to
8 May 1945
Dwight D. Eisenhower, Allied Forces Supreme Headquarters; Govt. Print. Off., 1946
In a section of the report named "The Breakthrough", DDE wrote of the
death of Gen. McNair:
==========
On the morning of 25 July an area 5 miles long and 1 mile wide to the
west of St-Lô was blasted by 1,495 heavy bombers of the Eighth Air
Force and 388 aircraft of AEAF dropping over 4,700 tons of bombs. At
the same time, medium bombers attacked troops and gun concentrations
southeast of Caen, and fighterbombers with bombs and rocket
projectiles attacked targets behind the American assault area. The
total of AEAF sorties for this day was 4,979. Of all the planes
employed in these massive operations, only 6 heavy bombers, 4 light
bombers, and 19 fighters were lost. These were chiefly the victims of
flak; the enemy fighters offered more combat than usual, but did not
succeed in penetrating our fighter screen and reaching the bombers.
As in the case of the bombardment of Caen a week earlier, the air blow
preceding the ground attack west of St-Lô did not cause a large number
of casualties to the enemy sheltering in their dug-in positions, but
it produced great confusion. Communications broke down and supplies
from the rear were cut off. During the actual bombing the bewilderment
of the enemy was such that some men unwittingly ran toward our lines
and four uninjured tanks put up white flags before any ground attack
was launched. Again, as at Caen, this stunning effect was only
temporary.
The closeness of the air support given in this operation, thanks to
our recent experiences, was such as we should never have dared to
attempt a year before. We had indeed made enormous strides forward in
this respect; and from the two Caen operations we had learned the need
for a quicker ground follow-up on the conclusion of the bombing, for
the avoidance of cratering, and for attacks upon a wider range of
targets to the rear and on the flanks of the main bombardment area.
Our technique, however, was still not yet perfected, and some of our
bombs fell short, causing casualties to our own men. Unfortunately,
perfection in the employment of comparatively new tactics, such as
this closesupport carpet bombing, is attainable only through the
process of trial and error, and these regrettable losses were part of
the inevitable price of experience. Among those who lost their lives
on this occasion was Lieut. Gen. Lesley J. McNair, who was watching
the preparations for the attack from a foxhole in the front line. His
death was a heavy blow to the United States Army and a source of keen
sorrow to me personally.
==========
Another book with segments on the same topic is:
Hoodwinking Hitler: The Normandy Deception
William B. Breuer; Praeger Publishers, 1993
Here are a few brief excerpts of relevance to McNair and the short
bombing incident:
--Now the skies were filled with the mighty drone of the first wave of
Liberators and Flying Fortresses. Soon there was the eerie, whistling
sound of hundreds of bombs plummeting through space, then a steady
drumfire as they exploded on the terrified Germans like a string of
giant firecrackers.
--Slowly, almost imperceptibly, the mild breeze shifted, and the
immense cloud of smog began to drift over American positions. Soon the
arrow-straight road was covered by the pall, and bombardiers at 15,000
feet could not distinguish the red smoke of American artillery-shell
markers from the bright flashes of exploding bombs. Now it was the
Yanks' turn to be terrified: thousands of "friendly" bombs came
screaming down on them.
--That same night a tiny group of American officers huddled around a
freshly dug grave in an apple orchard behind Utah Beach for the secret
burial of General Lesley McNair, who only recently had succeeded
George Patton as leader of the phantom army group across from the Pas
de Calais. McNair had been at a forward observation post to view
Cobra's air bombardment and had been killed by "shorts."
--Reporters were not told that a senior general had been killed in action.
--At the urgent behest of Allied deceptionists, Dwight Eisenhower
swiftly contacted George Marshall in the Pentagon, and Lieutenant
General John L. de Witt was rushed in from Washington to take command
of the dummy army group at Dover.
[From this next paragraph, it sounds as if the Allies deliberately
leaked the news of McNair's death to the German's through double
agents, to make it seem as if FUSAG was vulnerable]
Brutus, a "first violin," through his controller, leaped into action.
A wireless message was sent to Hamburg stating that he had just
learned that General Lesley McNair, whom he described as commander of
the First United States Army Group, had been killed in Normandy. "
McNair had gone there to consult with General Montgomery and to
inspect the German coastal defenses," Brutus explained. "Here at FUSAG
this loss is considered very serious. It is thought that a successor
will be appointed immediately to command the FUSAG operation." [ref
Delmer, p. 245]
That afternoon [July 29] Adolf Hitler finally realized that the
Patton-McNair-de Witt army group in southeastern England was a
monumental fraud and that no more Channel landings would be made by
the Allies. Fortitude had finally worn thin. So, nearly eight weeks
after D-Day, Hitler authorized von Kluge to pull divisions from the
Fifteenth Army in the Pas de Calais and rush them to Normandy to help
stem the American tidal wave. It was too little and too late.
==========
Not that any of this clears up any of the mysteries. But at least it
adds some detail to the overall picture.
Goodnight, now.
paf
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Request for Question Clarification by
nancylynn-ga
on
20 Mar 2004 21:18 PST
Using Amazon.com's "Look Inside The Book Feature," I found that
McNair's death was known by the Germans as of July 26, 1944, and had
been reported in The [apparently, New York] Times on July 28, 1944.
(As pafalafa just noted, it seems the U.S. wanted to get word of
McNair's death to the Germans -- and pronto!)
That information comes from pages 270 and 271 of the book "Fortitude:
The D-Day Deception Campaign" [all about FUSAG] by Roger Hesketh
(Overlook Press, 2000.)
Go to:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1585672947/ref=sib_dp_pt/104-1130309-2482366#reader-link
Then, in the "Search The Book" search box type in "McNair" to bring up
matches from the book; you can read quite a few pages pertaining, at
least in part, to McNair.
Btw, I have contacted Overlook Press with your mysterious tale and
asked them to please put me in touch with author Hesketh.
Nice work in the archives, sir! I suggest that on Monday you begin
your search with the *July 1944* issues of Stars & Stripes, rather
than first jumping ahead to 1945. As I understand it, McNair's death
was being reported in the American media within days of the friendly
fire disaster that claimed his life.
My guess is, Stars & Stripes published the news ASAP. I don't know how
or why the military press could have postponed word of McNair's death
when it was all over the civilian press.
All we can do is keep plugging!
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Clarification of Question by
dick32-ga
on
22 Mar 2004 13:29 PST
Dear nancylynn-ga & pafalafa-ga
I have just completed my research at the Hoover Institute Library!
The period covered was Jan1, 1945 to April 20, 1945. I believe that I
can put the pieces of the jigsaw together albeit very roughly. I
suppose that after 59.75 years that is to be expected! The article
that I remember reading appeared in the Paris edition of the Stars and
Stripes on January 25, 1945. It referred to Lt. Gen Ben Lear being
appointed to be Deputy Commander of the ETO (European Theater of
Operations). It further stated that he was Commander of the US Army
Ground Forces since the death in France last year of Lt. Gen. Leslie
McNair (no date given). Note; Lt. General Lesley McNair not General
McNair. It is this reported death of Gen, McNair that made a deep
impression on me. It was shortly after my encounter!
That would put me in Camp Twenty Grand in December 1944. This is a
reasonable assumption as I still have a series of dated sketches that
I made of our convoy in the North Atlantic in the period of December
11-15, 1944. We disembarked in England. Shortly thereafter, we
crossed the channel and docked in the utterly destroyed port of Le
Havre. From there we went to Camp Twenty Grand.
As I said before, the name Lt. Gen Ben Lear made no impression on me
but the name of Gen McNair Commander of the US AGF is etched in my
memory!
The mystery still lingers. Why was that four star General reviewing
the troops in December 1944 identified as Gen. McNair?
Dick
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Request for Question Clarification by
pafalafa-ga
on
22 Mar 2004 13:34 PST
>>Why was that four star General reviewing the troops in December 1944
identified as Gen. McNair?<<
One word possible answer:
S.N.A.F.U
It's great that you found the Stars and Stripes.
Is there anything in particular you would like Nancy and I to look
into for you, at this point?
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Request for Question Clarification by
nancylynn-ga
on
22 Mar 2004 14:48 PST
Hi Dick:
I again applaud your fine work in the archives!
I still suggest that you make one more trip to Hoover and search the
July 1944 issues of Stars & Stripes, then keep going to see how soon
McNair's death was reported in Stars & Stripes.
Why? Just to confirm when the Army's official publication announced
McNair's death. His death was reported all over the American press
within days of Cobra, July 26, 1944. So, *exactly when* were the
troops told?
IF the Army reported McNair's death ASAP in Stars & Stripes, that
makes it highly doubtful that the general you met at Camp Twenty Grand
was being passed off as an imposter.
HOWEVER, if there wasn't any mention of McNair's death in Stars &
Stripes prior to Dec. 1944, well, then, we really do have to consider
the possibility that the Army -- for whatever reason -- was trying to
hide his death from the troops and was using a stand-in. (Though why
they'd try to hide it from troops is baffling, given that the Germans,
and everyone back in U.S., knew all about his death.)
I'd still like to know just when the U.S. Military told the troops
about McNair dying from friendly fire during Cobra.
Also, please see the helpful, and most intriguing, comment from
gilgunn-ga (at the very bottom of this page) re: General Joseph T.
McNarney.
nancylynn-ga
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Clarification of Question by
dick32-ga
on
22 Mar 2004 16:09 PST
OK!
I shall make one more visit to The Hoover Insitute Library and
ascertain when Gen McNair's death was reported.
Dick
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Clarification of Question by
dick32-ga
on
24 Mar 2004 13:57 PST
nancylynn-ga and pafalafa-ga
Due to a computer glitch I lost contact with you!
Here is the complete text of the Stars & Stripes Friday issue, July 28, 1944:
"The death of Lt. Gen. Leslie J. McNair was annouced at SHAEF (Supreme
Headquarters of the Allied Expeditionary Force)last night. McNair was
killed by enemy action in Normandy, SHAEF reported, but details of his
death and the natureof his assignment were not disclosed.
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Clarification of Question by
dick32-ga
on
24 Mar 2004 14:09 PST
Nancyglynn & pafalafa-ga
Due to a computer glitch I lost contact with you!
Yesterday I found the following information about Gen. McNair:
Stars and Stripes datelined Friday, July 28, 1944.
The death of Lt. General McNair was announced at SHAEF (Supreme
Headquarters of the Allied Expeditionary Forces) last night. McNair
was killed by enemy action in Normandy, SHAEF reported, but details of
his death and the nature of his assignment were not disclosed.
Gen. McNair had been Chief of the Army Ground Forces until recently.
The War Dept. announced July 14 that he was given an important
overseas assignment and that Lt. Gen. Ben Lear, formerly Commander of
the Second Army had succeeded him as ground forces commander. etc.
etc.
Dick32
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Request for Question Clarification by
nancylynn-ga
on
24 Mar 2004 15:37 PST
Dick:
Your discovery:
"Stars and Stripes datelined Friday, July 28, 1944. The death of Lt.
General McNair was announced at SHAEF (Supreme Headquarters of the
Allied Expeditionary Forces) last night . . . ." is very key.
I think that we can take that as proof positive that the military
didn't make any attempt to fool you and other troops at Calais in Dec.
1944 into believing that you were being reviewed that day by McNair.
(Someone might have told you that as a joke, but there is no way the
military was actually trying to pass off a stand-in as the real McCoy
or, in this case, McNair :)
It has been a very long time; it's very possible that your memory has
tricked you a little, and that it was another general with a "Mc" name
who reviewed you.
I did try searching to see if Gen. McNarney ever visited Camp Twenty
Grand, but no luck. That doesn't mean he didn't, I just couldn't find
any such info online.
Also the 89th Infantry's site and online newsletter:
http://www.89infdivww2.org
will carry a link to this question at GA in their next newsletter,
which will be published in late April. The newsletter's editor will
let me know if anyone out there responds to your question with their
own memories of Camp Twenty Grand at that time, and which general
conducted that review.
At least a few members of the 89th went through Camp Twenty Grand
(though most went through Camp Lucky Strike):
http://www.89infdivww2.org/memories/astpstory11.htm
(Although that gentleman arrived at the camp several months after you had left.)
All I can do is try to find which four-star general, with a name that
has "Mc" in it, was indisputably at Camp Twenty Grand in Dec. 1944.
Regards,
nancylynn-ga
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Clarification of Question by
dick32-ga
on
25 Mar 2004 09:33 PST
nancylynn-ga,pafalafa-ga and gilgunn-ga
I think that I have finally reopened communications!
Per clarification 24 Mar 2004 Stars and Stripes reported McNairs death
on July 28, 1944.
With regard to comments by gilgunn-ga pertaining to Gen. Joseph
McNarney- I believe that it is very unlikely that he was the one that
reviewed the troops at Camp Twenty Grand in Dec. of 1944. He became a
full General later in 1945 and was in a different theater of
operations.
As I see it we have learned a lot about the circumstances of Gen.
McNair's death but we are still on square one about my encounter with
the purported Gen. McNair five months after his reported death.
Dick
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Request for Question Clarification by
pafalafa-ga
on
25 Mar 2004 09:56 PST
Hi Dick,
I know it was a long time ago, but do you perhaps remember -- HOW you
were told that the General in question was Gen. McNair? Was it the
grunt in line next to you? Or was the information made known in a
more formal announcement of some kind?
One possibility to consider was that your visitor was actually Lt.
General Raymond MCLAIN, who commanded the XIX Corps (9th Army) in
1945. Any chance this was your man?
You can read a bit about him here:
http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/ftlvn/ww2.asp
and if this sounds like a possibility, I can always dig up some
additional information.
Cheers.
pafalafa-ga
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Clarification of Question by
dick32-ga
on
25 Mar 2004 15:50 PST
nancylynn-ga, falafa and gilgunn-ga.
I have been meaning to thank you for your enthusiastic help on this
illusive question!
gilgunn provided some interesting bios of WWII generals. Gen. McNair's
bio includes the following information: " In 1954 Congress promoted
him posthumously to the rank of General."
Regarding your question about how I learned that the general
reviewing us in 1944 was so identified. It is customary for the troops
to be advised if an important personage is to review them.
I am reasonably certain that the general reviewing us was indeed
identified as Gen. McNair as I recall reading in the Stars and Stripes
about his death several weeks after the encounter! I finally found the
issue of S&S (July 28, 1944) that said that Gen. McNair, Chief of the
Army Ground Forces, was killed in action (no date given). This made a
profound impression upon me as the person identified as Gen. McNair
reviewed us several weeks before this issue of S&S! This was how I
learned about Gen. McNair's death.
Dic
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Request for Question Clarification by
pafalafa-ga
on
25 Mar 2004 16:29 PST
I've been meaning to thank you as well, just for doing what you did over there.
As for McNair, I'm not sure where to go with this at this point, but
I'm still mulling it over. I'll let you know what (if anything!) I
come up with.
And of course, there's still NancyLynn....!
pafalafa-ga
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Clarification of Question by
dick32-ga
on
26 Mar 2004 11:30 PST
Dear nancylynn-ga & pafalafa-ga,
Thank you very much indeed for your prompt responses to my clarifications.
I think that we are hitting a stonewall regarding the mystery of Gen.
McNair's appearance before the troops at Camp Twenty Grand in Dec. of
1944. Since Gen. McNair was assigned other resposibilitieson July 14,
1944 (see clarification (24 Mar 2004), there was no need to continue
the FUSAG deception vis a vis Gen. McNair. You are entirely correct
when you assert (24 Mar 2004) that the military had no motive to fool
the troops and the German 15th Army stationed near Calais in Dec.
1944. This is true particularly as SHAEF announced his death on July
28, 1944.
For my own part, I am convinced that the personage who reviewed us on
Dec. 1944 at Camp Twent Grand was identified as Gen. McNair, Chief of
the Army Ground Forces. This was substantiated in my mind when I
learned of the general's death in the Stars and Stripes several weeks
later on Jan. 25, 1945.
Thanks again for your resourceful assistance in pursuing this
question. You should not spend any more of your valuable time on this
conundrum.
Further to the issue of the precursor of Google (SVP, Si Vous Plait).
At the time of my visit, the company was thriving and gobbling up
office space all around Paris. They had a host of teachers, professors
and industrial experts acting as independent contractors digging up
answers to questions. SVP offered its subscribers a monthly credit for
so many hours of investigations. They also tried to be a full service
organization by providing travel agency services, etc.
Best wishes,
dick3
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Clarification of Question by
dick32-ga
on
30 Mar 2004 16:00 PST
roger4096-ga
Thanks for your comments on 30 Mar 2004. I will address each point raised.
"As noted previously, you now agree that the newssletter (?) you read
was S&S July 28, 1944". In ihis article SHAEF announced McNair's death
(he actually died on July 25,1944).
You couldn"t have been in Camp Twenty Grand before Sept. 1944, right?"
Right! I was in the States at that time.
"How about this guess (as noted by others) It was General Ben Lear,
Commanding General of the US Army Ground Forces, and it was Dec 1944.
Afterwards you found an old (?) copy of S&S iw hich you read about
McNair"
Your question refreshes my memory on the encounter. The four star
general who reviewed the troops and stopped in front of me did not
have a moustache! That feature would be distinctive and memorable! Gen
Ben Lear had a moustache (judging from photograhs of him from about
1940 to about 1945. So it definitely was not Gen Ben Lear who reviewed
the troops at Camp Twenty Grand in Dec 1944! Later on I read in the
Jan 25 1945 issue of the Stars and Stripes that McNair died (no date).
It was a current issue of S&S (at the time). That's what made a big
impression upon me. In my mind he died shortly after the review (I
did not critically read the article). The article said that he died
last year which I interpreted to mean shortly after the review in Dec.
1944.
The Jan 25, 1945 issue of the Stars and Stripes also annouced that Gen
Ben Lear was appointed US Army Deputy Commander of the ETO.
dick32
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