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Q: Tyres pressure changes with different wheel size ( No Answer,   1 Comment )
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Subject: Tyres pressure changes with different wheel size
Category: Science > Physics
Asked by: russell2002-ga
List Price: $20.00
Posted: 18 Mar 2004 05:46 PST
Expires: 17 Apr 2004 06:46 PDT
Question ID: 317928
I have a BMW Z8, the current alloys and wheels are as follows,

Front 8" rim 18" Diameter, with tyres of size 245/45/18
Rears 9" rim 18" Diameter, with tyres of size 275/40/18

BMW recommends the tyre pressure to be 35psi in each tyre.

If I replace the alloys with 20" diameter wheels so the sizes are

Front 8" rim 20" Diameter, with tyres of size 245/35/20
Rears 9.5" rim 20" Diameter, with tyres of size 275/30/20

What would the tyre pressure need to be ?

Note, their is a version of the Z8 Called the Aplina V8 Roadster, it
uses 20" wheels and the same profile tyres with the same weight
distribution, however has different suspension. Would the pressure
need to be the same as the Aplina V8 Roadster.

Regards,

Clarification of Question by russell2002-ga on 19 Mar 2004 05:56 PST
I apreciate the comments below,

However, if what you say is valid why would the Alpina version use a
higher pressure upfront ?

Also, you stated its the air insire the tyre which holds the car up,
with the Alpina version their is less air in the rear yet the same
pressure, and in the front their was less are but more pressure....

Request for Question Clarification by aht-ga on 19 Mar 2004 11:17 PST
The information on the Tire Rack website is targeted towards 'regular'
drivers, and road-racing competition. For competition purposes, often
there is a different tire pressure used in each of the four tires.
This is done for performance tuning purposes. As an example,
oval-track racing is very popular in North America (personally, I'm
not a big fan of cars going round and round a big oval for several
hundred laps, I prefer road races). When setting up a car for an oval
track, where the weight of the car will be borne mostly by the tires
on one side of the car, a left-right pressure differential will help
control how the car behaves while rolling, while a front-back
differential will determine how the car trades off between steering
and rear-wheel traction. If you think of the tire as an extension of
the suspension at each corner of the car, higher air pressure will
result in a stiffer suspension in that corner, lower air pressure will
result in a softer suspension in that corner.

For the Alpina, which is tuned for even-more-spirited driving than the
'regular' Z8, the higher air pressure up front, in concert with the
changes to the suspension system, is intended to provide better
steering response at the cost of some ride comfort (it is stiffer,
after all). Unless you also change out your suspension components,
though, you will not necessarily benefit from mirroring the Alpina's
recommended tire pressures.

Your best course of action, is to start out with cold inflation
pressures of 35 psi on all four corners. Break in the tires with a
little trip into the country, finding yourself a nice set of twisty
corners to see how the car rolls into turns.

Then, after the tires have cooled overnight, raise the front pressures
up about 5-10%, say to 38 psi. Only raise the front, as raising the
rear beyond 35 will most likely cost you traction (more on this
later). Then, tackle the same route again. If you perceive a
difference, stick with it. If not, then just lower it back to 35 psi
as the better compromise between performance on the road, and ride
comfort.

You were also wondering about my comment regarding the fact that it is
the *compressed* air inside the tire that holds up the car. There is
an important difference between saying "compressed air" and just
"air". Air, as a gas, is highly compressible. The pressure at which
the air is compressed reflects how much pressure that air exerts on
everything around it. The higher the pressure, the harder it is to
squish the tire, meaning that the tire will find its shape (for a
given pressure), and hold that shape against a higher amount of force
(such as when your car is cornering, and more of the weight transfers
to the tire). By holding its form, the tire's contact patch
experiences the least amount of deformation, maintaining your grip on
the road.

Technically, for a given vehicle weight, when you go to a larger/wider
tire with a larger/wider/longer contact patch, the tire pressure can
actually go down a bit. This is because the weight of the car is now
being transferred to the ground over a greater area (the larger
contact patches). Since 'psi' stands for 'pounds per square inch', if
your contact area goes up, the pressure required to bear the same
weight will go down. The difference is small enough to be not worth
calculating, though. As well, by maintaining the same or higher tire
pressure as was used in the smaller tire, the car benefits from a more
stable contact patch and the tires are even less susceptible to
deformation under load.

The advantage to using a tire sized for a larger wheel, especially a
low profile tire, is that there may actually be less air volume inside
the tire; that means that the pressure in the tire will increase
faster under load than with a tire that holds more volume. Again, this
helps when cornering, its like equipping your car with stiffer
variable rate springs. That said, you do want your tires to retain the
ability to absorb the small bumps and dips in the road surface, or
else you will lose traction every time the tire loses contact with the
road. So, you cannot increase the pressure too high. That's why
top-fuel dragsters (another uniquely North American phenomenon) run
low-pressure tires on the rear; losing traction in one of those beasts
can be career/life ending.

So, in order to help me understand how I can best help you, can you
please clarify what you would see as an acceptable answer to your
question? The exact tire pressures will be a uniquely personal thing
for your specific situation, best determined (as mentioned above) by
starting at 35 psi, then road-testing, followed by repeating the
road-test the next day with the front tires at a higher pressure, then
determining whether you like it.

Regards,

aht-ga
Google Answers Researcher

Clarification of Question by russell2002-ga on 19 Mar 2004 16:55 PST
I want the maximum contact patch front and rear. When I want to drive
the car hard the lack of comfort is the last of my worries, I simply
want it to go through bends as fast as possible.

I want to maintain the same contact patch as with the orignal tyres, I
dont want my tyre upgrade to result is a loss of handeling
performance.

ps, I have tried 41psi upfront and 35psi rear, the turn in is ALOT
sharper but I cant say if its actually able to go through bends and
faster. Im concerned that 41psi is simply causing the centre of the
tyre to stick out more, and its the thinner contact patch which is
making it feel more responsive to steering imput. In which case surly
the limit of braking traction is lower.

Request for Question Clarification by aht-ga on 19 Mar 2004 17:16 PST
If your tyres were overinflated, to the point where the centre of the
tread bulges out and the edges of the contact patch no longer contact
the pavement, then you would notice a marked decrease in turn-in as
your tires would have less contact with the pavement and subsequently
less traction to change the direction of your car. That means you will
understeer and skid. Similarly, if your tyres were underinflated, the
tire profile would deform as you start turning, allowing the car to
roll more than it should, transferring more of the weight to the
outside front tire, and again causing you to skid.

Unless your 20" tires happen to have the exact same width as your
current 18" tires, you will find that your contact patch increases due
to the wider width of the 20" tire. As well, the fact that the actual
profile of the tire is 1" shorter means that it will be even more
difficult for the tire to deform under load at any given tire pressure
as compared to the 18" tire. So, even if you ran the exact same tire
pressures as you currently use with the 18" tires, and assuming that
the tire compounds are at least comparable, your traction will
increase. More contact equals greater traction.

Request for Question Clarification by aht-ga on 23 Mar 2004 17:15 PST
russell2002-ga:

If I may ask... can you please advise how you would like this question
answered? It has been a few days since I last heard from you.

Thanks,

aht-ga
Google Answers Researcher
Answer  
There is no answer at this time.

Comments  
Subject: Re: Tyres pressure changes with different wheel size
From: aht-ga on 18 Mar 2004 18:05 PST
 
russell2002-ga:

That's a very nice car you have there!

The manufacturer recommended tire inflation pressure values are a
compromise between comfort and performance. Primarily, the pressure is
set as high as the ride quality will allow, while not over-inflating
the tires to the point where the contact patch is no longer optimal.
Most car guys would tell you that the air in the tires is the most
important part of your car's suspension system. The load rating for
any given tire, is calculated at a stated pressure; therefore, over-
or under-inflation will result in a reduction of either the actual
load carrying capacity, or the performance of the tire.

With today's low-profile tires, tires are a lot stiffer than before,
but it is still the compressed air in the tire that actually carries
the weight of the vehicle (by pneumatically transferring it from the
wheel to the contact patch). When you upsize from 18" to 20" wheels,
the size of the contact patch will most likely increase while the tire
profile is even lower. However, it is still proper to run your tires
at a cold inflation pressure of around 35 psi.

You can read more about air pressure and tire performance at The Tire Rack:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/general/pressure.htm
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/general/airpress_vs_dryperf.html
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/general/airpress_vs_wetperf.html
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/general/check_pressure.htm
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/competition/racepres.htm

Incidentally, for more information about tires (or tyres) than you
will ever want to know, check out:

http://www.chris-longhurst.com/carbibles/index.html?menu.html&tyre_bible.html

Ultimately, the correct tyre pressure for your situation will depend
on the exact tires that you buy for your 20" wheels, and the way you
drive the Z8. If you are a spirited driver, then 35 is a good point to
start at; if you find that the handling in the corners still leaves a
bit to be desired, try adjusting the tire pressures along the lines
recommended in the Tire Rack article on competition tire pressures:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/competition/racepres.htm

I've posted this as a comment, because of the variable nature of the
answer. If you find that the information I have provided meets your
needs, please let me know and I will post this as an answer to help
close the question.

Regards,

aht-ga
Google Answers Researcher

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