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Subject:
Introducing new cure for Diabetes
Category: Health > Medicine Asked by: octopia-ga List Price: $25.00 |
Posted:
22 Mar 2004 21:42 PST
Expires: 21 Apr 2004 22:42 PDT Question ID: 319460 |
Hi everyone, A herbalist that I know has developed a cure for Diabetes and has been prescribing it for the last three years. He claims that the medicine restores the Pancreas in 30 days to perform its normal functions; the patient will be completely healed as result, and will not require any diabetic medication at any time in the future. Now, he is trying to introduce this medication to pharmaceutical companies to get them to produce it commercially. The goal now is to prove to pharmaceutical companies that this medicine is effective, so that they develop enough interest so that they can handle all related processes from filing a patent and obtaining official approvals/registration (e.g., FDA?s) worldwide. One problem is that the there is very little/no documentation available now on the results of this medicine. (He is saying: ?It works. Let?em try it an they?ll see!). So, one suggested solution is ? after signing necessary agreements ? to send the companies samples of the medicine so that they can research its effects. In this case, there is another problem: he is not interested in giving out the formula to anyone before guaranteeing his fees. (In other words, he will give out as many samples as required, but he will not give out the formula nor the ingredients.) Having all of that in mind, what is the best way to approach pharmaceutical companies to introduce this medicine? |
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There is no answer at this time. |
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Subject:
Re: Introducing new cure for Diabetes
From: techtor-ga on 23 Mar 2004 01:09 PST |
Hello Octopia, Is this the same Octopia I remember? Great to see you again. Regarding your question, I believe it is difficult to approach pharmaceutical companies without any legitimate scientific approval or accreditation. Your friend could approach a third-party test laboratory and have his product tested and rated, or he can just try to manufacture and sell the product on his own. Just my opinion here, I am not familiar with this industry, perhaps another researcher with more experience or knowledge in this industry could help you more. Good luck. |
Subject:
Re: Introducing new cure for Diabetes
From: probonopublico-ga on 23 Mar 2004 03:55 PST |
I suspect that if someone gets hold of a sample then it might be possible to determine the formulation. |
Subject:
Re: Introducing new cure for Diabetes
From: neilzero-ga on 23 Mar 2004 05:01 PST |
I presume big pharmacutical companies get daily letters from people who think they have good treatments and cures. Likely they check out a small percentage of these claims which typically do not lead to profit for the drug company. Eli Lilly sells perhaps a billion dollars worth of insulin per year, so they may want to buy control (keep it off the market) of an effective cure to avoid loosing their very profitable sales. Sorry I find it hard to be optimistic. Neil |
Subject:
Re: Introducing new cure for Diabetes
From: octopia-ga on 23 Mar 2004 06:28 PST |
Hi Techtor, Yes, it is the same Octopia. I missed the Google answers community over the last period, but it is good to hear from you, and hope all is well? You are right. It is all about getting the right referrals that could make pharmaceutical companies go for it. The issue is getting these labs to test it and how far they can go with out supplying the formula. The least they can do is test it and determining if it suitable for human use, but I guess in order to convince pharma companies, we need some medical tests on real cases. Speaking of that I don?t know what is the procedures for legitimizing tests on volunteers. If it is too difficult in the US then, anywhere around the world. Someone told me it involves several stages of that begin by testing on animals and after so many phases, you can finally test on volunteers. Yet, something tells there must be a shortcut around this procedure, otherwise, a lot of potential medicines are not making it to the market. Note: Thanks for giving it a shot Techtor. Why not have a look at my other new question on http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=317167) |
Subject:
Re: Introducing new cure for Diabetes
From: octopia-ga on 23 Mar 2004 06:29 PST |
Hi probonopublico, That is the first thing I thought of. So I contacted solids-solutions.com who specializes in reverse engineering. Here is their reply: ?It is very difficult to determine the origin of all components in a mixture. It is not impossible if someone knows the ingredients but those are [usually] not [unambiguously] to determine?? |
Subject:
Re: Introducing new cure for Diabetes
From: octopia-ga on 23 Mar 2004 06:30 PST |
Hi neilzero, Yes, it is difficult and Eli Lilly is not the only ones to worry about. If this thing work, then the whole Diabetic related industries will phase out. Still there will always be a need for Diabetes cures as long as the disease is there, which means more profits for that company which will adopt it. |
Subject:
Re: Introducing new cure for Diabetes
From: ac67-ga on 23 Mar 2004 08:38 PST |
The process for FDA approval does involve a number of steps or phases, usually starting with animal studies, then moving to safety studies, then efficacy studies. In other words, before you prove it will work, you need to prove it is safe (withing reason-no drug on the market is 100% safe). No pharmaceutical company is going to test an unknown compound - it would violate bioethical standards, since they would be giving something to a patient that they got from an unknown source. (Let's face it, would you sign up for a study where the doctor told you, "try this, I'm not sure what it is, but some guy told me it would work"?). In regards to analyzing a sample, if it is a fairly pure extract of an active ingredient, then it would be fairly easy for a pharm. company to determine what it is. If it is a more complex herbal extract or combination of herbs, then it would be more difficult to determine, however, the company would want to determine the active ingredient or ingredients before getting FDA approval or marketing, since otherwise it would be next to impossible to verify the dosing needed to ensure safety and efficacy. One of the difficulties with herbal medicines is that plants vary in the amount of different chemicals they produce depending on growing conditions, plant strain, and processing methods. I suppose the conspiracy theorist can always come up with some plot where the evil drug companies squash a potential cure because it would interfere with their profits. However there would certainly be profit to be had from this as well if it works as stated. Further there are different forms of diabetes, of which Type I is caused by pancreas malfunction and Type II is caused by peripheral insensitivity to insulin, not pancreas malfunction, so it doesn't sound like it would necessarily work for all forms of diabetes, although it may work differently than what you stated. Rather than start with the drug companies, he may want to start with Universities or other research labs, which are starting to do more (long needed) studies on herbal or other alternative treatments. He would have to be very careful though, since they will often have clauses that stipulate anything developed through research in their labs becomes property of the University. This would have to be very clearly established ahead of time, if he wants to maintain rights. The alternative is to continue doing what he is doing, but he must be very careful about how he markets this, since the Govt takes a dim view of claims of curing illness for anything that doesn't have FDA approval. |
Subject:
Re: Introducing new cure for Diabetes
From: scubajim-ga on 23 Mar 2004 11:45 PST |
The usual protocol would be to have a double blind study. That is to have two groups of people that have type I Diabetes. (The type you describe.) One group would take the "magic" pill and the other group would take a placebo. (something proven to be harmless, and have no effect on people) The people giving the medication would not know who got the "magic" pill and who got the placebo. The choices between who got which treatement would be random and only known to a third party. (eg everyone gets a different number, and at random the choice of treatments is assigned. The fact that people with the following numbers #1,4,5,7,9, 13,56 got treatment A and everyone else got treatment B would be known, but someone who doesn't know who is number #1 etc. would know that treatment A was the placebo and treatement B was the ""magic" pill. Once the study is concluded then the results are looked at and which treatment the placebo etc. is revealed.) That way no one who is involved in the study knows what they are getting. Then you need to determine that the tratment worked better than chance. That is people who got the placebo should not have gotten better and people who got the "magic pill" should have gotten better. If they got better or had no change in equal propotions then it isn't clear that the "magic pill" worked. There is a cost to setting up a double blind study, but it is much more effective than anecdotal evidence and is much more convincing to anyone that would manufacture it for you. (Of course, there are plenty of charlatens who will do it for you, contact all the penis enlargement via pills people!) I wouldn't worry about Eli Lilly trying to buy it from you and take it off the market. You are describing Type I diabetes and your cure won't work on type II or Type III. Type II diabetes is Adult onset Diabetes and is usually caused by obesity and Insulin resistance. These people do produce plenty of insulin and so restoring the pancreas is not going to help them because their pancrease is just fine. I believe this is a much larger market than type I. Type III is Gestational Diabetes and the Mother still produces insulin, but because of the pregnency needs to suppliment and control her diet and the amount of Insulin. Again this won't be cured by your pill. Best sugestion is to find a University who will do a good double blind study and publish it in a reputable scientific paper. But there are a ton of people out there claiming that they have cures for cancers etc., but don't have time to do the studies or they gen up some excuse that the drug companies and all scientists are in cahouts and can't possibly understand their revolutionary technique. Just send $149.95 for their magic pill... If it really works then it should work in a double blind study. Good luck. |
Subject:
Re: Introducing new cure for Diabetes
From: synarchy-ga on 23 Mar 2004 13:19 PST |
As an added note - if it really works, patent the formulation. |
Subject:
Re: Introducing new cure for Diabetes
From: probonopublico-ga on 23 Mar 2004 21:43 PST |
I agree with Synarchy ... Patent it ... At least in the more important countries ... I wonder .... Is the incidence of diabetes the same country by country? |
Subject:
Re: Introducing new cure for Diabetes
From: octopia-ga on 24 Mar 2004 11:40 PST |
Hi ac67 and scubajim Thanks for a very informative comment. Any of your comments can be taken as an answer. Here are some additional comments from my side: o Analysis of the ingredients: A very valid point for knowing the ingredients before the tests. In one instance that I know of, that herbalist has provided a sample to an MD in order to test it on one of the patients. The MD took the medication first and analyzed it to see if it is suitable for human consumption. Well, the test came out positive, but the point here is that this is the type of tests that I expect research centers would require and there is no doubt about that being necessary. As I mentioned, he would give out an as many samples as necessary these tests, but would not give out the formula. Now, the issue is whether a test could be documented without giving the formulas or ingredients. o Building Credibility with Direct Testing: What is your advice on continuing direct testing, but having a medical institution monitor the results this time. In other words, the patients would run a test before and after, and the institution would just certify the changes. Would this work? Could this be enough to publish results at medical reviews/papers? o Types of Diabetes: Point well taken. o FDA Approval: Yes, I completely agree with you. Also, this could take years before the approval is granted. It is even more complicated when getting approvals worldwide. So, the issue now is to convince the pharmaceutical companies more than it is to get approvals. Would the method above work to do that (under ?Building Credibility??) o Ingredients: It is a complex herbal mixture, and maybe that this why he is somewhat confident that it is difficult to know the ingredients. Plus, according to him, it also involves certain ?secret methods? of processing to develop it. o Double Blind Study: Very informative, thanks. Can that herbalist do it directly though, and register results at a well-known medical institution? All they would do is testify the condition of the cases on day 1 and after 30 days. o Scams: Point well taken. o Herbal Testing: I know that some medications in the market are not regulated by FDA, because they are natural extracts. Your point on that being a different case when claiming the medication is a cure (rather than a supplement) to a disease is valid, and in that case, regulation would definitely need to take place. Again, we are not trying to reach that stage, due to the time and resource requirements. It is about getting a company to be interested enough to sponsor the research and registration of this medicine. Just a small thought here: What if it is introduced as a supplement to the Diabetes conditions and then letting research discover that it cures to some extent. (I am referring here to the famous story of how Viagra has been discovered as medication for a completely different purpose.) o Patenting: Yes, this would be a necessary step. At least we could a patent-pending status that we can build on. |
Subject:
Re: Introducing new cure for Diabetes
From: probonopublico-ga on 24 Mar 2004 12:42 PST |
I've posted a loosely related Question ... See #320077 Just curious. |
Subject:
Re: Introducing new cure for Diabetes
From: socal-ga on 25 Mar 2004 16:58 PST |
All these concerns are a waste of time. This person or anybody else CANNOT get a patent on this material, even if it worked, because it has been IN USE and ON SALE for 3 years. The applicable patent law is: 35 U.S.C. 102 A person shall be entitled to a patent unless - (b) the invention was patented or described in a printed publication in this or a foreign country or in public use or on sale in this country, more than one year prior to the date of the application for patent in the United States, The person has missed his chance and drug companies (again if it worked) can make it without his permission or paying royalities. All he has is an opportunity to sell "snake oil" is desperate people. |
Subject:
Re: Introducing new cure for Diabetes
From: probonopublico-ga on 25 Mar 2004 21:50 PST |
Sorry, Socal, I must disagree. My understanding is that the formulation has not been described in a publication nor has it been 'in use' within the meaning of the Patent regulations. So patenting remains an option because no one other than the inventor knows what it is. |
Subject:
Re: Introducing new cure for Diabetes
From: octopia-ga on 25 Mar 2004 23:51 PST |
Yes, I agree probonopublico. 'In use' applies if this use makes the formula known to the public, which is not the case here. |
Subject:
Re: Introducing new cure for Diabetes
From: octopia-ga on 29 Mar 2004 05:51 PST |
Thanks everyone for your input, scubajim or ac67, if you are interested, please post your comments above as the answer to this question. All the best? Octopia |
Subject:
Re: Introducing new cure for Diabetes
From: socal-ga on 29 Mar 2004 13:33 PST |
Sorry probonopublico-ga and octopia-ga, But you are wrong when it comes to Patent Law. The "in use" [102b] bar does not relate to the public disclosure of the "invention" when the item is actually being used or sold commercially. The first sentence of the question states the fact: "A herbalist that I know has developed a cure for Diabetes and has been prescribing it for the last three years." This is "in use" and "on sale", and the US Patent Office is will cite 102b everytime. There is no way to argue away the simple fact. In general, patent law is one of those subjects where people believe they understand the process, but in reality do not have any first hand knowledge of this very technical field. There are so many "urban legends" about patents. This is made obvious by the fact that two very knowledgeable people -- probonopublico-ga and octopia-ga -- both made an error on a rule (102b)that is one of the most basic concepts in the US Patent system. A comment for everybody reading this thread. If you have a question concerning patents and your rights, contact a Registered US Patent Attorney/Agent. "Common Knowledge" or "Information from friends" can be very dangerous and expensive. |
Subject:
Re: Introducing new cure for Diabetes
From: ac67-ga on 31 Mar 2004 10:22 PST |
Neither I nor scubajim are official google researchers, only fellow users/commenters, therefore we can't list our comments as answers. If you are satisfied that you won't get anything better, you could close the question and you will only be charged the posting fee. |
Subject:
Re: Introducing new cure for Diabetes
From: gradivus-ga on 04 Apr 2004 14:02 PDT |
I agree with socal-ga, who I suspect is a patent agent or attorney (I am also a patent attorney): If your herbalist has been prescribing his "cure" for the last three years (presumably as part of his business) in the United States, then it's too late to obtain a U.S. patent. I also agree with socal-ga about something else: When it comes to law, as with many other important topics, a little knowledge can be a very dangerous thing. Google is not currently accepting additional applications for "Researchers," so unless a Google already has an actual patent attorney Researcher, I strongly recommend you seek a qualified patent attorney elsewhere for further advice on patent law, if your question is more than idle curiosity. |
Subject:
Re: Introducing new cure for Diabetes
From: bigdogmax-ga on 11 Dec 2004 14:05 PST |
Hi Octopia: I don't have an answer to your question but I have a firsthand interest in your report as my infant son was recently diagnosed with Type 1 diabetes (on Thanksgiving Day of all things) and supposedly there are homeopathic treatments (such as this) that can reverse the disease if it is caught early enough. We are scrambling to find a herbal cure that we can try. How could I get in touch with this person? I do have strong contact in the pharmaceutical field that perhaps could be leveraged as well. Thanks! |
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