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Subject:
1D heat equation, moving boundary
Category: Science > Math Asked by: chinaski-ga List Price: $50.00 |
Posted:
24 Jun 2002 17:04 PDT
Expires: 24 Jun 2003 17:04 PDT Question ID: 32628 |
I have the partial differential equation dQ/dt = (1/2) d^2 Q / dx^2 for t>0, -infinity<x<f(t) (i.e. Q_t = (1/2) Q_xx) on a semi-infinite plane. The initial condition is Q(x, t=0) = delta_d(x), with delta_d the Dirac delta function. The hard part is the boundary condition: Q is 0 along the curve x=f(t) rather than along a line of constant x, i.e. Q(x=f(t),t) = 0. f(t) is a well-behaved function (continuous, monotonic, etc) which I can derive numerically but can't write in a simple form. It is greater than 0 at t=0 and decreases monotonically to -infinity. Is the solution for Q(x,t) known? If so, what is it? I really only need dQ/dx evaluated on the boundary x=f(t), and would settle for that instead of a complete solution for Q(x,t) everywhere. | |
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There is no answer at this time. |
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Subject:
Re: 1D heat equation, moving boundary
From: blader-ga on 24 Jun 2002 18:39 PDT |
Dear chinasky: Does this page help? http://mathworld.wolfram.com/HeatConductionEquation.html Best Regards, blader-ga |
Subject:
Re: 1D heat equation, moving boundary
From: chinaski-ga on 24 Jun 2002 19:35 PDT |
No, unfortunately. The page concerns the same equation, but it assumes a boundary condition that is fixed, not moving, and that makes the solution much easier. Sadly separation of variables doesn't seem to work with my boundary conditions. But thanks for the link. Best, chinaski-ga |
Subject:
Re: 1D heat equation, moving boundary
From: ake-ga on 25 Jun 2002 03:40 PDT |
Try using a pullback. Set R(x,t) = Q(x+f(t),t). Then R is defined on t>0, x<0. R(x,t) then solves dR/dt = df/dt*dR/dx+1/2d^2R/dx^2. Thus, if you can solve this equation you can reproduce Q. I just did a mental calculation, so you'd better check the details. Hope this helps. Sincerely, ake-ga |
Subject:
Re: 1D heat equation, moving boundary
From: chinaski-ga on 25 Jun 2002 11:20 PDT |
Yes, that straightens the boundary condition, but then the new equation you get is not separable (unless df/dt=const, which is not the case) and I don't know how to solve it either. But it's possible that recasting the problem this way will help someone else think of a solution, even if it doesn't help me. Thanks for the suggestion. regards, chinaski-ga |
Subject:
Re: 1D heat equation, moving boundary
From: arubin-ga on 25 Jun 2002 14:30 PDT |
The region of validity of the equation seems ill-defined. For example, if Q(x,t=0) = delta_d(x) for ALL real x, then the solution is unique. On the other hand, if Q(x,t=0)=delta_d(x) only for x < f(0), with the domain of the function being {(t,x): t>=0 and x <= f(t)}, it then makes sense. |
Subject:
Re: 1D heat equation, moving boundary
From: arubin-ga on 25 Jun 2002 14:31 PDT |
Never mind...I should read the entire question before trying to answer it. |
Subject:
Re: 1D heat equation, moving boundary
From: ake-ga on 27 Jun 2002 05:23 PDT |
As far as I can see, there's no reason to suppose that you could map this to a separable equation, for the tranformation would have to map a non-separable equation into a separable one. In fact, I think it would be hard to come up with even a series representation of the solution, except possibly locally. So why not solve the equation numerically? This seems reasonable since you don't have an explicit representation of the function f anyway. Sincerely, ake-ga |
Subject:
Concerning the answer to chinansky's questions and Google's researchers.
From: ake-ga on 03 Jul 2002 14:20 PDT |
Dear hedgie-ga, As you yorself has pointed out, this is not a free or moving boundary problem. It is a PDE on a time-varying domain. The difference is monumental. There's no reason why the techniques in Crank would help here. Furthermore, it was clear that chinansky asked for a representation formula for the solution in terms of f and its derivatives. I think it is far from obvious that, say, an explicit integral representation formula doesn't exist though there are good reasons to doubt it (the quote from Crank not being one of them). That said, I can understand why you would think a reference on free and moving boundaries would be helpful, but it would be far better to supply that as a comment instead. I suggest that chinanski ask for a refund on this one, and the Google answers editors should think both once or twice if their "stringent process for screening" in any way guarantees high quality answers to mathematical questions. Sincerely, ake-ga |
Subject:
Re: 1D heat equation, moving boundary
From: hedgie-ga on 04 Jul 2002 08:17 PDT |
Dear ake I appreciate your comment, but beg to disagree. This is, as I said, "prescribed moving boundary problem" , which is classified under the generalised Stefan problem. I have said it is not 'classical Stefan Problem'. What I have given J. Comput. Phys in years 1971 - to 1981, which Crank says has general mathematical formulation of adaptive finite elements for prescribed moving boundary - which your case of Stefan-like problems (1974, 1975). is the most appropriate relevant reference I was able to find. It is not a closed formula, and reasons are given to believe then none such exists. However, the customer is the ultimate arbitrer. In this case we have a sophisticated client who will review this and other sources and will evaluate usefullnes of what I have provided. I do hope s/he will provide rating abd feedback, as it help us to decide wen and how to post a contribution. I you, ake, can find a closed formula or more relevant reference, I, and I believe chinasky too, would be happy to see it. |
Subject:
Re: 1D heat equation, moving boundary
From: hedgie-ga on 17 Jul 2002 07:56 PDT |
I have answered this question. No analytical soultion is known, except for few very special cases. I have provided reference to collection of the special cases. Chinasky rejected the answer. It looks like under new google policy, answer is removed this history of question is not shown. Since there is no analytical solution, and collecting evidence and explanation why it is so, is not acceptable answer, it is my opinion that no matter what you do, you will not get paid. Proceed at your own risk. |
Subject:
Re: 1D heat equation, moving boundary
From: askrobin-ga on 05 Aug 2002 21:12 PDT |
This problem can be mapped onto a random walk problem where a random walker starts at the origin at time t=0 and diffuses in the presence of a moving "trap" whose position is f(t). Discretize the x axis into steps of delta x and time into steps of delta t. The random walker moves randomly left/right once per time step. If the walker lands on the trap, the walker is annihilated. If you collect statistics on enough random walks you will achieve an *approximate* answer to your problem. The density Q(x,t) is then equal to the number of random walks at position x at time t, normalized by the total number of random walkers released. You say you really only need dQ/dx evaluated on the boundary x=f(t), and this can be easily evaluated as it is something like the number of walkers that get annihilated by the moving trap at exactly time t, normalized by the total number of random walkers released. Again these are only an approximate solutions but if you release enough random walks you can achieve an answer of arbitrary accuracy. The moral of the story is this: if you can't think like a mathematician, try thinking like a physicist! Alternatively, you could use the computer a different way to solve the problem, e.g. by integrating the diffusion equation forward in time on a discrete 1-d lattice with a finite time step. But I imagine you already thought of that. -askrobin ps-- excuse me if this is not terribly coherent; it's late and i'm worn out...! |
Subject:
Re: 1D heat equation, moving boundary
From: chinaski-ga on 05 Aug 2002 21:56 PDT |
Thanks for the comment, askrobin! The random walk with annihilation is exactly the problem I want to solve; ie, that is basically the underlying physical situation. What I really want to know is how many walkers get annihilated as a function of time, as you guessed. I just cast the question as a PDE because I thought it would be easier to explain. Unfortunately I'm not really interested in solving this problem numerically, though I know it can be done and have code to do it. I'm more curious in learning what analytic solutions are known. I'm aware of exact solutions for the following special cases of f(t): f(t)=const, f(t) = A*t, and f(t) = B * t^(C/2). But surely there are many others. |
Subject:
Re: 1D heat equation, moving boundary
From: andy22-ga on 14 Sep 2002 08:25 PDT |
It's very difficult to solve moving-bounday problems analytically. However there is hope... I can try to develop the problem by transforming it to an infinite boundary problem. Let's try mapping the x interval (-inf,f(t)] to (-inf,+inf) by making the transformation: R = Q/(x-f(t)) or Q = ( x-f(t) ) * R In this case, we can transform the moving-boundary problem to a partial differential equation with infinite b.c.'s and then maybe use some kind of separation of variables. First, let 's do the substitution: Q_t = - R * f_t + R_t * ( x - f(t) ) Q_x = R + R_x * (x - f(t) ) Q_xx = R_xx + R_xx * (x-f(t)) + R_x Which transforms your original equation to: -R*f_t + R_t * (x - f(t)) = 2* R_x + ( x - f(t) ) *R_xx As you can see, the function f(t) is now integrally bound to the other variables by the product terms f_t*R, f(t)*R_t, etc... I have a strong feeling that this implies that there is no possible analytical solution to this problem without knowing f(t) a priori. If you would like, I could try to develop the separation of variables on known functions, like f(t) = polynomial function of t. Regards, Andy22 |
Subject:
Re: 1D heat equation, moving boundary
From: andy22-ga on 14 Sep 2002 12:36 PDT |
This is an erratum and addendum to my previous post. First of all, apologies for some rather sloppy and incorrect math. I'll try to keep it clean this time. I had inverted the transformation between Q and R. The following is what I meant to say: If we make the transformation: R = (x-f) * Q or Q=R/(x-f), the 1-d heat equation becomes: R_t + f_t/(x-f) * R = 1/2*R_xx - R_x/(x-f) + R/(x-f)**2 subject to: R=0 at x = -inf and x=+inf and R = delta(x) * (x-f) at t=0 I believe it is possible to solve for this by separation of variables for the time functions that chinaski needs ( const, A*t,, t^(c/2), etc...) |
Subject:
Re: 1D heat equation, moving boundary
From: sfbp-ga on 30 Mar 2004 17:54 PST |
Dear chinaski-ga, By Q(x,t=0) = delta_d(x) do you mean Q(x,t=0) = delta_d(x_o), where x_o is some number between -infinity and f(0), or do you mean that at t=0 the heat distribution is infinite everywhere from -infinity to f(0)? Thank you, SFBP |
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