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Q: How to catalog music samples? (for quick auditioning of e.g. sound effects) ( No Answer,   2 Comments )
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Subject: How to catalog music samples? (for quick auditioning of e.g. sound effects)
Category: Arts and Entertainment > Music
Asked by: ranen-ga
List Price: $20.00
Posted: 09 Apr 2004 05:11 PDT
Expires: 01 Jun 2004 13:33 PDT
Question ID: 327630
Hi,
I have a library of sound samples for my hobby of music making.
Some are on CDs, some are on my hard-disk.  Formats are AKAI, WAV, Pulsar,
Audio.
I am trying to find a way and hopefully a tool for improving the task of
finding and auditioning samples for a music project.
My current, horribly inefficient way would involve browsing through my CDs
or sample folders according to the names, genre etc., but by this method I
rely on the samples to be properly and strictly named, I skip a lot of good
and matching samples on the way, and still I have to go through too many CDs
until I find the better samples.  Changing CDs is definitely not the
creative part of making music...
To solve this problem, the ideal tool would:
1. Have a central database of samples, allowing searching for the samples in
a single location
2. Allow assigning user categories and tags to samples, and provide
searching capabilities accordingly
3. Allow auditioning of the samples directly from the database, without the
CD inserted.  For this to be made possible, the tool should be able to have
a "thumbnail" of each sample stored in its database.  This is quite
straightforward - you can compress a high-quality sample to a mono,
low-quality sample which would be 5% or less of the original size, still
maintaining the ability to audition the sample.
4. Allow auditioning of the actual high-quality samples, when they are
available (e.g. from the hard-disk or if the corresponding CD is in the
drive).
5. Allow easy integration with sequencers, e.g. drag&drop of a sample from
the database view into Cubase.
6. Support as many sample and CD formats as possible - to serve sections 3-5
above.

After searching for a while, I found too little.  There are some tools
available, however, none of them really delivers.
Here is what I found:

* SampleCatalog (http://www.geocities.com/samplecatalog/)
SampleCatalog is great, free, and does all of the above except for managing
an auditioning database (section 3 above).  This means that your catalog is
very organized, but you still need to swap CDs to actually audition samples.
* SampliFile (http://www.nexoft.de/products/samplitools/SampliFile.htm)
Almost the ideal complement to SampleCatalog - it stores all samples in a
central database to enable offline auditioning, and you can choose to
compress the samples as well (theoretically an ideal section 3).
However, the program looks amateur, mixes English and German language, and
for some reason refused to read any of my CDs (WAV or AKAI) - saying "this
CD has an incompatible format" (the same error that it gives even when the
drive is empty...).  Folders cannot be grouped, and user tags or categories
cannot be assigned.
* HAL (http://www.halion.co.uk/)
A bit like SampleCatalog, but only for Halion samples.

Bottom line, nothing passes.  I am looking for a good, working tool - that
would combine the abilities of SampleCatalog and SampliFile, that is - the
features listed above.  Does such a tool exist?

There is an alternative, I guess:
I can convert all of my samples to WAVs on the hard-disk (using Chicken
Translator or similar), then use an audio compressor to turn them into MP3
files (or similar), then use a generic MP3 or file cataloging utility (such
as the great Music Library or even better for the task - WhereIsIt) to
catalog the MP3 files and allow search capabilities.  The MP3 files would
remain on the hard-disk, and will be used for auditioning.  When the perfect
sample is found, I can go to the actual CD to get the high-quality sample.
This method will work, no doubt.  But it also requires the usage of at least
two utilities (converter, catalog) instead of one, meaning no automation of
the task.  Still, it is the only working solution I can see at this point.

Is there a working, proven solution for this task?  Of-the-shelf
products are naturally preferred.
Answer  
There is no answer at this time.

The following answer was rejected by the asker (they received a refund for the question).
Subject: Re: How to catalog music samples? (for quick auditioning of e.g. sound effects)
Answered By: jbf777-ga on 28 Apr 2004 20:37 PDT
 
Hello -

Most likely your best solution for this task is Mark of the Unicorn's
MachFive software sampler, which works right in Cubase:

"The most critical thing you need from a sampler is easy access to
your sounds. MachFive? offers unprecedented sound bank management,
helping you concentrate on the music ? not file handling chores on
your hard disk. MachFive always remembers where your sounds are
located, and it has been optimized for browsing and loading libraries.
Even multi-gigabyte libraries are quickly and efficiently scanned. 
UVI-Xtract?, an import utility included with MachFive, allows you to
audition and load programs and samples from every major sampler
format: Akai?, SampleCell?, EXS24? and even Gigasampler?. Legacy
formats are also supported: insert your Kurzweil?, E-mu? or Roland?
CD-ROMs and convert programs ? or even the entire disc ? in just a few
clicks. MachFive helps you bring your sound library investment into
the 21st century."

Read more about it here:
http://www.motu.com/english/software/machfive/body.html

Here's an article on it at emusician:
http://emusician.com/ar/emusic_motumachfive_mac

You can get it for $369 plus an additional cash rebate at Dr. Audio:
http://www.doctoraudio.com/machfive.html


Additional Link:
Kontakt is the main competitor to this product, but its file handling
capabilities might be less powerful:
http://www.native-instruments.com/index.php?kontakt_us

Search strategy:
Prior knowledge

Please ask for any clarification you may require prior to rating this
answer.  Thank you.

jbf777

Request for Answer Clarification by ranen-ga on 29 Apr 2004 02:05 PDT
jbf777 - thanks for the answer.
As I understand it, MachFive does not solve the issue fully,
especially section 3 in my original question - which is indeed my real
problem.  Without this section, I can use any sampler or even the free
SampleCatalog, as I mentioned in my question.
Carefully reading the MachFive links, I could not find a hint to a
thumbnail (compressed) sample DB approach; it seems like, as with all
other samplers, MachFive needs all original/imported samples to be
accessible in order to be auditioned (a CD inserted if the sample
resides on a CD), and their approach to easy auditioning would be the
classic one - copy/import everything to your sample folder on the
hard-drive.
The following links support my assumption about MOTU's approach, but I
cannot fully check it as they do not offer a trial version.

http://lasso.motu.com/technical/display.lasso?-KeyValue=My%20internal%20HD%20is%20almost%20full.%20Can%20I%20move%20my%20MachFive%20sounds%20folder?&-Token.Action=

http://lasso.motu.com/technical/display.lasso?-KeyValue=When%20MachFive%20converts%20my%20sounds%20from%20another%20format,%20what%20happens%20to%20the%20originals?&-Token.Action=

I hope that I'm missing something...  Please clarify if MachFive does
support a central, compressed sample database - I will be happy to buy
it then.

    -ranen

Clarification of Answer by jbf777-ga on 29 Apr 2004 07:41 PDT
ranen -

Thanks for your clarification request.  I will look into this and get
back to you today.  Should I not be able to find a solution, I'll
simply withdraw the answer (you won't pay for it).

Thanks,

jbf777

Clarification of Answer by jbf777-ga on 29 Apr 2004 10:25 PDT
I have confirmed with Native Instruments (makers of Kompakt and
Kontakt - www.native-instruments.com) that all of their sampler
products have a central database with auditioning capabiity.  You copy
all of the samples to your drive, and they are all accessible in a
central window.  While not compressed, the samples load and play
instantly upon clicking on them for easy auditioning.  You can also
drag 127 of the samples over to the main window, where each of them
can be mapped to a separate key on your keyboard (88 samples in this
case, one per key), for easy triggering of each.  This solution would
provide you with a) a central sample database, b) a means of quickly
auditioning, and c) integration with Cubase.  While not "compressed"
per se, will this meet your needs as outlined?

Request for Answer Clarification by ranen-ga on 01 May 2004 06:32 PDT
Hi jbf777,
As with MachFive, NI requires you to copy/import to your hard-drive to
have the auditioning capability.  Steinberg's Halion offers the same.

I should probably clarify my reasoning with section 3 in my question.
My starting point is a hard-drive with limited capacity, comparing to
offline content (online content is what I have on the hard-drive,
whereas offline content is anything that is elsewhere - on CDs, DVDs,
on friends' media or even on the internet).  Since I assume that I
cannot store online everything that I would like to be able to use,
what I need is an index - a catalog for easily *finding* what I can
use.
Like a catalog in a furniture shop, that allows me to easily browse
("audition") the variety from one place, including itmes that are not
in stock.
If all samples are on the hard-drive - SampleCatalog is the best
solution, better than the features offered by the various samplers, as
it offers categories assignable to the samples by the user.
[I wonder what professional studios do, say with loads of sound
effects media; do they store everything online?  I'm sure they don't
swap 100 CDs to find a door-slamming effect.
Also, describing this issue to a friend, he has mentioned that the
solution sounds like somthing Amazon.com (for example) might have used
in order to offer streaming song samples from their site (the song
sample is our thumbnail - a short part of the original, in a low
quality, compressed size).  I assumed they just use a custom solution
and not an off-the-shelf product, at least not for home-use.]
So, the solution that I seek should deal with offline media, and the
only way that I can think of is by employing those audio-thumbnails...

Clarification of Answer by jbf777-ga on 01 May 2004 20:32 PDT
Hi ranen -

With the price of hard drive space falling through the floor, there's
no reason to do anything other than copy all of your samples over. 
This is probably why a solution such as what you're looking for
doesn't exist.  For example, you can buy a high quality, OEM Seagate
200 GB drive for $138 at newegg.com (1/3 the price of your average
sampler).  The average sample CD holds about 700 MB.  One of these
drives can hold 285 sample CD's worth of storage.

If MachFive or Kontakt would do what you're looking for, you would buy
it -- that means you'd be willing to spend $350-$400 on software.  You
can buy the cheapest of the sampling programs that will do what you're
looking to do software wise, and then invest the $100-$138 in the
hardware you need to store all your samples.  Then you never have to
swap CD's, never have to worry about
running out of storage, and never have to worry about finding a
different solution. :)

I know this is not the direct answer to your original question, but
does this make sense?  Is there any reason why you can't expand your
storage capacity?

Thanks,

jbf
Reason this answer was rejected by ranen-ga:
My question was not answered yet (although alternatives which I am
aware of were suggested).

Comments  
Subject: Re: How to catalog music samples? (for quick auditioning of e.g. sound effects)
From: littlerubberfeet-ga on 28 Apr 2004 19:20 PDT
 
What application are you using to edit your music?
Subject: Re: How to catalog music samples? (for quick auditioning of e.g. sound effects)
From: ranen-ga on 29 Apr 2004 01:27 PDT
 
Cubase SX 2.0, on Windows XP.

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