need to find an infrared thermal imaging camera.  the Heat Find-IR Jr,
by monroe infrared is the one that best suites our needs.  the lowest
price i found is $5700.00 for a brand new one.  i would like to find a
used one.  http://www.monroeinfrared.com/hfir_jr.htm  is the website
for this particular model.   i'm surprised that i did not easily find
a used one. i am not good at using the internet.  i
heard there were 2500 of these cameras sold last year to fire
fighters.  they are also used by law inforcement, & the military.  if
you go to isgfire.com you will see the ones made for fire departments.
these would also work for me.  there are a lot more of these sold to
fire departments, than to contractors like myself.  (note, the heat
find-ir jr, is suposedly marketed exclusively by monroe infrared, but
it is actually made by isg.  the website is http://www.isgfire.com/ 
when you go to that website, you will so other models, any of which
would work for us.  the ones made for firefighters, have additional
features, which i do not need, but they would work for us.   i would
be using
this to see moisture in walls.  these cameras do not see the way
normal cameras do.  they only see heat. (they can work in total
darknes) light does not affect them at all.   i have not had any luck
finding a used one, and my goal is to save money by finding a used
one, rather than buying a new one for $5700.00   thanks alot, and good
luck in the search.

Hello Joe:

I didn't have any luck finding a used version of the Monroe camera
that interests you, the Monroe Infrared Heat FindIR Jr. So, I e-mailed
Monroe to ask if they sell any used Infrared Heat FindIR Jr.s.
(Perhaps perfectly good units that were returned or were repossessed.)
http://www.monroeinfrared.com/images/historyofmit.htm

From that link I e-mailed their sales division:
sales@monroeinfrared.com

I did the same at ISG:
E-mail info@isgfire.com
explaining that you need this camera to detect moisture on walls and
that you wanted a camera priced under $5,000.

An ISG Customer Service Representative got back to me right away and
suggested you  go to www.monroeinfrared.com. Monroe Infrared
Technology Inc., "which is ISG's representative."

According to the service rep, Monroe "can offer an infrared solution
within the $5,000 budget. Their toll free number is 1-800-221-0163."

My research turned up some new and used infrared thermal imaging
cameras for sale that *seem* to meet your needs. They are:

At eBay:

Using category "Cameras" and search strings "thermal imaging camera" and
"infrared camera," I found this bargain:

There's an Argus II thermal imaging camera for sale on eBay with a
starting bidding price of $795:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=53293&item=3813666159&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW
The camera belongs to a fire department which just received a new
camera, so is selling this one.

Note that this auction says "Reserve" not yet met, so the seller has
set a price an absolute minimum price. If you bid, you'll have to
increase your bid until you meet the "reserve" price. You'll then
quite likely wind up having to bid higher if someone else begins
bidding on it. See eBay's FAQ on reserve auctions:
http://webhelp.ebay.com/cgi-bin/eHNC/showdoc-ebay.tcl?docid=900&queryid=reserve_price

If the Argus II isn't what you need,or if you lose that auction, keep
checking eBay to find just what you do want. Use the search string
"infrared thermal imaging camera" and search the following categories:
"Business and Industrial"; "Cameras;" "Consumer Electronics."

You can also set your preferences at eBay for alerts and
notifications, so that you know when you've been outbid, of if an item
meeting your speficifications has been listed:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/account/notification-preferences.html  

****
Many of the following discounters don't list prices; they prefer that
you call them to discuss prices. I think your best bet is to call or
e-mail them and tell them your specific needs and your budget, so that
they can narrow down which items correlate best to your parameters.

Also, discount outlets like these have ever-changing inventory. It's
possible one of the following places has just the Monroe model you
want, but hasn't yet had a chance to list it. Or, these outlets may
agree to keep an eye out for the Heat FindIR Jr. in your desired price
range, then contact you when they get one in stock.

Sierra Pacific's Superstore & Demo Cameras:
http://www.x20.org/thermal/DemoIrCameras.htm
As the name implies, this outfit sells discounted infrared thermal
cameras that were used as demos and are now for sale as "used."

E-mail: sales@x20.org
Or call (702) 369-3966 for information.

Here's their page on major brand name thermal cameras:
http://www.x20.org/thermal/

And their infrared outlet, Sierra Pacific:

http://www.nationalinfrared.com/
which carries used and demo infrared thermal cameras.

Here's some of their pre-owned inventory:
http://www.nationalinfrared.com/Pre-Owned.php

E-mail for both of the above is sales@nationalinfrared.com; phone: Telephone
(702) 369-3966.

*****
B&H Photo has infrared cameras:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?ci=1&sb=ps&pn=1&sq=desc&InitialSearch=yes&O=SearchBar&A=search&Q=*&shs=infrared
ranging from $1,500 to $7,000.

Contact B&H at:
Phone: 212-444-6711 
Or 1-800-952-3386
Via e-mail, see this extensive listing of e-mail contacts at B&H by camera type:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist.jsp&A=getpage&Q=ContactUs.jsp#email

*****
Infrared Spot

http://www.infraspot.com/irequipment/dealers.html
which is a directory of four independent thermal imaging camera dealers.

At American Infrared:
http://www.americaninfrared.com/
You can narrow the choices of models to view by price range ($4,000
--$11,000), then by application, then by choice of four manufacturers.

You can contact American Infrared  at:
315-369-6004
Fax:    315-369-6204
Email: info@americaninfrared.com

Infrared Spot:
http://www.infraspot.com/irequipment/dealers.html
also has a link to USA Industrial Group, which carries ISG cameras:
http://www.usaindustrialgroup.com/

And:
http://www.usaindustrialgroup.com/infrared.htm
According to the site, some models are $4,000 or less. Contact USA
Industrial Group via this online form:
http://www.usaindustrialgroup.com/contactform.htm

I also found a link to Reliability Direct, which sells infrared imaging cameras:
http://www.reliabilitydirect.com/tempproducts/FLIR-thermacam_et.htm
Scroll down that page and you'll see models priced at under $4,000.
Keep scrolling to see various applications for FLIR cameras.

*****
You can place a notice under "Looking To Buy" at the "Infrared
Themography" classifieds site:
http://www.infraredtraining.net/classifieds.htm

Search Strings

buy used thermal imaging cameras
buy used infrared camera
Monroe Infrared Heat FindIR Jr.
used Monroe thermal imaging camera
used thermal camera
used OR demo "thermal imaging"
discounted AND "infrared thermal cameras"
discounted Monroe infrared thermal
discounted ISG infrared thermal imaging cameras

I hope my research is of help to you.

Please post a "Request For Clarification," if you need help navigating
any of the above links, or if you require clarification or assistance
on any of the above points, prior to rating my answer.

Regards,
nancylynn-ga

---

Clarification of Answer by nancylynn-ga on 05 May 2004 16:17 PDT

Joe:

I'm sorry you didn't click for a "Request For Clarification" prior to
rating my answer because I have every intention of helping you find
the camera you need.

Even though you've already rated this answer, I certainly want to
continue assisting you in this matter.

You said your main criterion is "i would be using this to see moisture
in walls"  and "if you go to isgfire.com you will see the ones made
for fire departments. these would also work for me."

When I contacted ISG I told them you need an infrared camera that can
detect moisture on walls. As I posted in my answer yesterday, an ISG
representative assured me that if you went to www.monroeinfrared.com,
or called Monroe at 1-800-221-0163, Monroe would be able to "offer an
infrared solution within the $5,000 budget."

So, when I posted my answer to you yesterday, I therefore fully
expected Monroe to be able to outfit you with a camera that meets your
needs -- priced at under $5,700.

Now I'm baffled that they apparently could NOT do that for you!

Adding to the confusion (at least to my confusion :), today I received
a reply e-mail from a representative at Monroe stating:
"I am curious as to where [your client] found one of our HFIR [Heat
FindIR] Jr's for $5700.00. We know of where our customers are and are
not aware of anyone selling a used unit.

"We do not have any used JR's without temperature available but our
new units are in stock for $6,995.00."

Monroe went on to tell me they "do have a demo JR-T (with temperature)
available for $7,495." (I will be contacting ISG and Monroe again
tomorrow, on your behalf.)

Some of the other sources I cited for you: 

Sierra Pacific:
http://www.x20.org/library/thermal/pdm/ir_thermography.htm
Notes that its infrared cameras' "THERMOGRAPHY APPLICATIONS [include]
. . . Moisture contamination evaluations in buildings, condo's, plants
facilities. . . ."

Again, I thought detecting moisture was your main concern. But they
didn't have anything under $5,000?

American Infrared, which had prices at about $4,000, didn't have
anything in that price range that meets your needs?
  
Regarding the unit at eBay that I'd noted for you:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=53293&item=3813666159&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

Since the camera belongs to a fire company, I thought it would be
suitable for you because of your comment: "if you go to isgfire.com
you will see the ones made for fire departments. these would also work
for me."

I'm very sorry; I guess I misunderstood you to mean that *any*
infrared thermal camera suitable for fire departments would work for
you  -- but you meant *only those models displayed at ISG*?

I just took another look at eBay (of course, its inventory changes
hourly), and I found these cameras:

Raytheon IR 250  (But it's liisted at $5,500. However, if it doesn't
sell, it will likely be re-listed at a lower price.)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=40970&item=3813790773&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

And 

The PYRO ThermAtrace II Thermal Scanner (With built-in Polaroid
camera) "is designed for plant and field applications to locate
potential failures before they occur. A photographic recording
accessory enables the ThermAtrace? II to obtain an instant hard-copy
picture of the measurement area. Measurements can be made over five
selectable temperature spans: 10 C, 30C, 100 C, 300C and 1000C . . .
.")

I also just checked eBay's "Fire & Rescue" and "Government & Public
safety" categories for "infrared thermal imaging camera," but couldn't
find any infrared thermal imaging cameras listed there. Those
categories are worth checking frequently, in addition to "Cameras,"
"Electronics," and "Business & Industrial."

Tomorrow, I'll call ISG and Monroe to see if I can find just what you
want. Again, ISG had told me that Monroe could offer the sort of
infrared camera you need "within a $5,000 budget."

Therefore, I need to be very clear:

1) I need to know the specs you must meet. I've been operating on the
assumption that detecting moisture on walls was your only real
concern. Are there other applications you need? Is there anything I'm
misunderstanding -- please feel free to correct me.

2): Please tell me the top price you're willing to pay for an infrared
thermal imaging camera that meets the specs you've indicated.

I'm sure I can find some other places besides the ones I've already
listed that sell demo and/or used cameras that fit your needs and your
budget. I will certainly try my best.

Regards,
nancylynn-ga

---

Clarification of Answer by nancylynn-ga on 06 May 2004 16:42 PDT

Joe:

I realize this system can be confusing for newbies. I certainly do
appreciate your kind words about me -- thank you -- and thank you,
too, Webadept-ga!

Joe, when you need to contact me again, use the "Request For
Clarification" feature, so I receive an alert when you post. (I know,
it's confusing!) No, please don't post your name, e-mail, or phone
number.

O.K., when I first began answering this question my understanding was
that you needed the same sort of infrared thermal imaging cameras used
by fire companies, and that you primarily needed the camera to detect
moisture on walls.

That was all I knew re: specs.

So, you *don't* need a temperature component, just the ability to
detect moisture on walls. Those are the primary specs?

Yesterday, Monroe told me it sells brand new HFIR Jr.s -- *without
temperature* -- for $6,995.00. That's for a new one. (Again: Monroe
isn't aware of any available used models or demo models of the HFIR
Jr. -- without the temperature feature.)

Now you're telling me this model will also fit your needs: 
ThermalScan IRC-2000? Infrared Camera
http://www.inspectortools.com/irtherimcamt.html
but it's priced too high. 

According to its Web site, ThermalScan's manufacturer, Inspector
Tools, currently has a demo unit for sale.

But I have a feeling that if a new one costs $9,500, then a demo unit
is likely to still cost more than a brand new HFIR Jr.! But I will
call them tomorrow and get a quote.

I'll continue to hunt for a used ThermalScan and HFIR, Jr. Besides
calling Monroe and Inspector Tools, I'll contact some other
manufacturers to get prices (preferably on used or demo) cameras that
meet your needs and your price target.

I hope that by the time you return from vacation, I'll have some
viable options for you.

nancylynn-ga

---

Clarification of Answer by nancylynn-ga on 11 May 2004 15:07 PDT

Last week you asked me about the ThermalScan IRC-2000?. Its
distributor, Inspector Tools, has a demo unit for sale:
http://www.inspectortools.com/irtherimcamt.html

I called Inspector Tools, and it turns out the price for the demo unit
is $9,000 (it's had only about 6 hours of use), as opposed to $9,500
for a brand new one.

I looked around some more:

I found Goratec's IR-InSight?  a portable infrared camera 
http://www.goratec.com/products.php?ProductID=1&language=en
I e-mailed them -- and they forwarded my e-mail to Inspector Tools!
(Inspector Tools and Infrared Solutions are Goratec's distributors.)

I've been assured that there is nothing in the Goratec/ Inspector
Tools/Infrared Solutions line priced at under $9,000.

You can also try Machine Vision Online Buyers' Guide:
http://www.machinevisiononline.org/buyers_guide/
There, you can put in a request for what you need and multiple
suppliers will respond to your request.

Here's a master list of Producers & Distributors of Infrared Devices:
http://inframed.net/IC/LINKS/eird.htm

I also e-mailed:

Senspex
http://www.senspex.com/
info@senspex.com
1-505-891-0034

Cantronic:
http://www.cantronic.com/

E-mail: info@cantronic.com
Phone:  1-866-391-6970
(I tried calling that number, but something seemed to be wrong with their phone.)
Or use their online information request form:
http://www.cantronic.com/information_request.html

Unfortunately, I haven't heard back from Cantronic or Senspex. If I
do, I'll post that information.

I also contacted:
Indigo Systems: 
http://www.indigosystems.com/

Indigo told me they didn't have anything in the $5,000 range, but see
this page of their used cameras:
http://www.ircameras.com/
because they may get a camera in stock that does suit your needs.

You can also fill out their online information request form:
http://www.ircameras.com/contact_form.html

Frankly, more and more, the HFIR-Jr., brand new, without temperature,
listed at $6,995, is looking like your best bet -- if you need a
camera right now.

Please bear in mind that the outlets I listed for you in my answer:

National Infrared Pre-Owned Cameras:
http://www.nationalinfrared.com/Pre-Owned.php

Sierra Pacific's Superstore & Demo Cameras:
http://www.x20.org/thermal/DemoIrCameras.htm

B&H Photo:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?ci=1&sb=ps&pn=1&sq=desc&InitialSearch=yes&O=SearchBar&A=search&Q=*&shs=infrared

Infrared Spot:
http://www.infraspot.com/irequipment/dealers.html
which links to USA Industrial Group, which carries ISG cameras:
http://www.usaindustrialgroup.com/

American Infrared's Used Cameras:
http://www.americaninfrared.com/USED.htm

Reliability Direct:
http://www.reliabilitydirect.com

all have ever-changing inventories. They remain your best hope for
getting the kind of camera you need at the price you want. Just
remember: just because they didn't have what you wanted in stock last
week, doesn't mean they won't ever have the camera you want!

You just have to be sure to keep checking in at their sites. I would
also suggest that you call them back or e-mail them to see if you can
be placed on a waiting list.

Also keep checking eBay, especially the categories "Camera" and
"Business and Industrial."

Otherwise, I understand one of the manufacturers you contacted last
week did offer you a nice discount. If that offer is still on the
table, I urge you to reconsider that! It seems to me to be the best
deal you can get.

Search Terms:
handheld AND "infrared thermal imaging" AND moisture
portable thermal imager detect moisture
used infrared thermal imaging camera
used OR demo AND handheld AND "infrared thermal imaging" AND moisture
"buy used" AND "infrared thermal imaging" AND moisture
"infrared thermal imaging camera" AND used OR demo
buy repossessed thermal imaging cameras
"government auction" AND "infrared thermal imaging cameras"

I felt bad putting only one star... the camera on ebay, will not work
for us... we thought maybe it would, but then i did some more
research, and found out it will not work for our particular
application.   i do appreciate all the work you did.  i have already
talked with all the people that you gave us links for.  we were not
able to find the camera that we need for less than $5700.00   so, i
just want you to know, that even though this didn't work out this
time, i really appreciate all the work that you did.  thanks, -joe

Just for your future knowledge Joe, it is always wise to wait on
rating an answer until you at least try a clarification or two. If
there is a time frame involved its good to let the researcher know
that up front as well. Most of the Researchers , and especially one as
tenacious as nancylynn-ga, will continue working on research until
they have exhausted all possible avenues or find you what you need as
an answer. Its what they do. Again, this is just for future reference.
Don't loose out by not clarifying your question at the very least
once, if the first  answer didn't meet your needs. Many, again like
nancylynn-ga will ignore the closing and continue on if they realize
that you are not satisfied with what was found. It's not a hole n one
every time,.

webadept-ga

dear webadept-go,   thank you for explaining all that.  i'm new to
this, but am very impressed by nancy's work.   i didn't know there was
even a difference between rating it with a star, or adding a
comment... i'm not even sure if what i'm typing right now is a
clarification, or just a comment.  i guess i need to learn how to do
all this stuff.

nancy, i'm leaving for a little vacation to florida, and i'm running
late.  so i will have to keep this very brief.  i will try to log on
again in the next 3 to 5 days.  i guess i'm not allowed to leave my
cel phone number or email, is that correct?  i will comment more on
all the specific things you mentioned... but for now, let me just say
that of all the camera's that i have looked at, the heat finder jr, is
the one we really need.  it comes 2 ways.  with and without
temperature.  we don't need the temperature.   for new pricing, they
add $1,000.00 for the temperature feature.   we have no use for that. 
if we found a used one, with temperature, that would be fine, if it
was within our budget.  it's just like buying a car i think.  if you
buy a brand new car, and get every available option, like electric
windows, and sun roof, etc etc, it can add a ton of money to the
price... however, when buying a used car, you might find one, with all
those extra options that you don't really need, but when the car is 14
years old, those extra options aren't necessarily going to add that
much to the price.  i'm rambling here, i'm sorry.  i'me typing as fast
as i can.  i guess my point is, althoug we don't need the temperature
feature, and would never pay the extra $1,0000.00 if we had to buy a
new unit, you never know, you might find a used one within our budget,
and if it happened to have temperature, we could still use that one,
even though we don't need that feature.  so again, weather it has temp
or not makes no difference.  we just need one for under $5700.00 or
there abouts.

also, there is another unit we might consider...  here it is: 
http://www.inspectortools.com/irtherimcamt.html
this one generally goes for about $9500.00 brand new.   if you could
find a used one, for maybe one thousand, or two thousand less than the
brand new one, i might be able to borrow some money, and get that.

i think the reason it's so hard to find used ones is because this is
new technology, and the people who have purchased one of the these
units, for the most part, are hanging on to them.   but having said
that, out of all the thousands and thousands of these cameras that
have been sold, i would think there has to be a few people who for
whatever reason are selling there old cameras...   either because they
are going bankrupt.... or because they are upgrading to a more
expensiver camera... or something.  hey, there's a thought.  when
someone is going bankrupt... sometimes a leasing company re-po's
(reposesses) the equipment, and sells it at auction.  my friend just
got some dehumidifiers and blowers for his water restoration company
that way.   he got the stuff brand new, in the box, for 50 cents on
the dollar.

thank you for all your work.  i will try to check in with you as soon
as i can.  is there somekind of deadline on this listing?  i hope not,
because you seem to be very good at what you do, and i have a feeling
you will be able to find this for us.  thanks again.  -joe