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Subject:
Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
Category: Arts and Entertainment > Books and Literature Asked by: jacquot1-ga List Price: $25.00 |
Posted:
20 Apr 2004 22:13 PDT
Expires: 20 May 2004 22:13 PDT Question ID: 333507 |
I want to discover the identity of the man who TRANSLATED the theological novel LETTERS FROM HELL into English when it was published by Darfish in London around 1888. I want the name (not the initials) of the man who TRANSLATED the novel from the earlier German-dialect version, which in turn was based on the original edition in Danish, first published in Denmark in 1868. The name of the TRANSLATOR was NOT Dr. George MacDonald. Dr. MacDonald wrote an introduction (in English) to the London edition; but he did not translate the novel. The OCLC catalogs identify the TRANSLATOR as LWJS. Who was LWJS? Four intials are odd. These initials may be wrong or may be a subterfuge. Two letters may be the real initials. The person who translated the novel had to be fluent in German, with a knowledge of German dialects, and probably also with some knowledge of Danish. The London edition was translated was made from the German-Dialect version. The author of the novel was a Danish priest, Valdemar Adolph Thisted; he was NOT the translator. The translator was probably someone living in London around 1887-1888. He was not necessarily a translator or a writer. He may have been an important person, or someone who became important later on. There was an advertisement for this book in the London Times on Sept. 8, 1888 -- quoting a review in the Morning Advertiser, stating 14,000 copies sold. It is possible the identity of the translator is mentioned in a book review. Or possibly in correspondance and records of George MacDonald, the author of Lilith and Phantastes, who wrote the introduction. Or perhaps in records of Darfish publishers. Or perhaps buried in the text of the book as a hidden clue. Or perhaps in the introduction by Dr. MacDonald (who was not the translator.) It was Dr. MacDonald who was responsible for the publication of an English edition of this novel; so he undoubtledly knew who translated it. MacDonald employed him to do it. If you find the answer, you have to cite your source(s). |
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Subject:
Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 21 Apr 2004 01:21 PDT |
Could it be "Julie Sutter"? Go to http://blpc.bl.uk/ Then click on "SEARCH" and enter "Sutter Julie" as "Author/Editor" (no results if you write "Julie Sutter"). |
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Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: politicalguru-ga on 21 Apr 2004 01:40 PDT |
Dear Jacqout1, Thank you for this question. It might interest you and the other Researchers to know that an online bookstore offers another version of the book: "[THISTED, Valdemar Adolph]. Letters from Hell. By M. Rowel. Two volumes, octavo, blind-stamp of the Dublin bookseller J. Kearney on flyleaf; an excellent copy, uncut in the original maroon cloth, slightly faded. London, Richard Bentley, 1866. First English edition of a lurid imaginary voyage to Hell, published at the same time as a Copenhagen edition. Thisted (1815-1887), a Danish priest, was the author of many works. Letters from Hell starts dramatically with the death-bed perspective of the protagonist, and quickly segues to the entrance of Hell from whence he conducts a lively tour of his new abode, always walking a fine line between voyeurism and Christian admonition. The work concludes with a suitably affecting and melodramatic portrayal of his love for his mother, made damning by her arrival in Hell, where the two sit opposite, yet eternally distant, from each other: 'Call it company if you will, but it is a company more barren and waste than any desert'. Despite the inclusion of a Preface 'which should not be overlooked' where Thisted tries to give his work a redemptive and warning tone, its title alone was enough to have it banned in England. It was not until a second edition of 1884 that its popularity in England matched that on the Continent." (SOURCE: Hordern House, "Web catalogue: Nineteenth-century English literature" <http://www.hordern.com/webcatalogues/19thCenturyEnglishLiterature.htm>). In other words, if there is/was an edition in 1888, it is not the first one or even the second one - and more importantly - at least the first one had been translated into English alongside the publication of the Danish original (and not from German), from which one could (perhaps) conclude that the author was with close relations to Thisted. Thisted himself (or his English publisher) used the pseudonym "M. Rowel". Dr. John Doran is mentioned in the "Athenaeum Title Record" (City University of London Library) as a "controbutor" to the 1866 volume: <http://www.soi.city.ac.uk/~asp/v2/contributors/contributorfiles/tget.cgi?2044.html@LettersfromHell>, which probably means that he reviewed the book. My conclusions so far: - It might be necessary to compare the 1866 and the 1884 versions, in order to see if MacDonalds' version is different in anything that could indicate that the 1884 is a new translation. - In addition, contemporary review pieces, like the one mentioned before, might reveal the name of the translator. - Both of these, as well as any primary resource, are not available online. It would (probably) not be possible to use web-resources only to solve this mystery. If a Researcher might have to do a library research on this one, I'm afraid that the current compensation might not cover the travel expenses and the hours involved. |
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Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: politicalguru-ga on 21 Apr 2004 01:44 PDT |
blushing, FP... |
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Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 21 Apr 2004 04:02 PDT |
Well, Politicalguru, I is not yet proven that LWJS and Julie Sutter are indeed identical. |
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Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 21 Apr 2004 04:19 PDT |
I tried to find some additional information on Julie Sutter ... no results. Links to archives holding papers by George MacDonald (1824-1905): http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/iss/archives/collect/10ma25-1.html or http://www.aim25.ac.uk/cgi-bin/search2?coll_id=2891&inst_id=6 and http://oasis.harvard.edu/html/hou00361.html |
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Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 21 Apr 2004 04:27 PDT |
Sorry ..., I had intended to write "it is not yet proven". |
Subject:
Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 21 Apr 2004 05:00 PDT |
"Miss Julie Sutter ..." http://www.rootsweb.com/~nechurch/Luth/motp/pages/motp0013.htm |
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Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: jacquot1-ga on 21 Apr 2004 11:08 PDT |
The name of Julie Sutter may be a BIG clue, but she is NOT the primary person responsible for the translation. I had mentioned that the intials may have been a subterfuge. Now I believe the intials LWJS were a subterfuge -- an encrypted clue. I believe the translation was the collaborative work of three people -- all of whose surnames began with the letter S. There was JS = Julie Sutter (not important.) There was LS = ?? (not important.) And then there was WS = ?? VERY IMPORTANT. I will tell you all that the identification of this person is not a trivial matter. This is not a question of just finding out who translated this novel from German-dialect, or Danish, into English. This person may have been a well-known person, a significant figure in British history, living in London in 1887-1888. I am not interested in guesses who WS might have been. I am looking for an ID, a connection with a source -- any kind of source that can be documented. The best bet is to find some connection of WS with the writer George MacDonald -- who must have known who was responsible for the English translation. Speculation is OK, because it may give someone an idea where to investigate. But I am looking for a positive ID of some connection between a WS and a person who translated this novel into English Happy hunting, Jacquot1-ga PS It might be useful to come up with the identity of LS also, just to prove that the four intitials were in fact an encrypted clue. But LS cannot possibly be the person who was primarily behind this translation into English of Letters From Hell. It must have been WS. |
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Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: jacquot1-ga on 21 Apr 2004 11:32 PDT |
Please forgive my repeated misspelling of initials -- a mistake I sometimes make when I type too fast. There may have been other editions of Letters from Hell in English. I have information that Funk and Wagnalls published an English edition in 1885. I am ONLY interested in the 1888 edition published in London by Darfish with an introduction by Dr. George MacDonald. Other editions, including the original edition in Danish by Visted are irrelvant to the question of naming WS. Once again, the best bet is finding a link between WS and George MacDonald. Jacquot1-ga |
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Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 22 Apr 2004 02:01 PDT |
Why do you consider WS as "very important", and LS as "not important"? Could it be the collaborative work not "of three people", but of two, i.e. JS (= Julie Sutter) and LW (= ...)? |
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Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: geof-ga on 22 Apr 2004 08:15 PDT |
Sorry, I don't think there was any publisher called "Darfish"; this was almost certainly a misprint for the word "Danish" in the 1888 Times extract to which you refer. (I can find no other works published by "Darfish".) The publishers in England of "Letters from Hell" from the original in 1866 through the later editions in the 1880s were Richard Bentley. When the book appeared in the US in the 1880s the publishers were Funk & Wagnalls. The following web pages contain references to the book and its publishing history: http://www.pioneerbooks.com.au/lists/0054.html (Look under L.W.J.S) http://www.biblio.com/browse_books/title/l/408.html (See number a4894) |
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Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: geof-ga on 22 Apr 2004 08:19 PDT |
Re my comment above. Sorry, the web pages are correct, but my bracketed notes are switched. IE look under L.W.J.S on the biblio site; and a4894 on Pioneer. |
Subject:
Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: jacquot1-ga on 22 Apr 2004 12:46 PDT |
There is no doubt whatsoever about the ad for this book in the London Times on September 8, 1888. I have seen this ad myself. The ad states: "Letters From Hell 14th Thousand. From the Darfish. With an introduction by DR. GEORGE MACDONALD. In one vol., crown 8vo., 6s. "Should be read by every thinking mind."-Morning Advertiser." Also, there is no doubt whatsoever that the Darfish edition of this novel exists. While I have not seen an original copy of it myself, I have substantial portions of it transcribed by others who do have access to original copies. After all, at least 14,000 copies of this book were sold -- and undoubtedly more were sold after the ad appeared in the London Times on Sept. 8, 1888. For those who are seriously trying to find the answer to this mystery about the identity of the translators, I repeat: all other editions of Letters From Hell are totally irrelevant to the question of identifying the translators of this English edition of the novel -- one of whom we know was Julie Sutter (I have confirmed that fact with other sources). The question about two translators instead of three is a good one. It is indeed possible that L. W. J. S. = L. W. + Julie Sutter. If anyone can come up with a source naming L. W. as a translator of this book, that would eliminate the possibility of W. S. Conversely, If anyone can come up with the name of a translator L. S. for this book, that would also confirm the existence of W. S. Why am I so sure that W. S. exists and that he is VERY IMPORTANT? Because I already have an idea who W. S. is. I do not want to reveal my idea yet because I do not want to tilt the search. What I want to find is a source, any source that indicates the name of a man with the initials W. S. who translated Letters from Hell for George MacDonald, from German dialect into English, around 1888. If one of you were to come up with a translator for this book with the initials W. S. who is not the person I have in mind, that would also be OK -- even though that would disprove any connection between this book and the person I have in mind. A documented WS who translated this book wins the prize, whoever WS might have been. The man who I have in mind, a significant person, was fluent not only in German but in German dialects, in addition to his total mastery of English. There are documented instances in his life of him using cryptic aliases to hide his identity in various activities. He lived in London throughout the 1880s, unquestionably in 1888. He knew personally many of the most famous literary, artistic, political and theatrical personalities of the era. I do not know whether he knew George MacDonald personally (he certainly knew about George MacDonald), or whether George MacDonald knew about him. But if the two did in fact know each other, BINGO! Guesses of famous people with the initials W. S. do me no good. The only thing that will answer my question is the documented name or names of the other 1 or 2 translators besides Julie Sutton who translated this book for George MacDonald. The translators must have the initials either: WS, or LS or LW. Incidentally, I will certainly credit anyone who finds the name and source, if I write anything about it. Jacquot1-ga |
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Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: politicalguru-ga on 22 Apr 2004 14:28 PDT |
More about the "unimportant" Julie Sutter: Ms. Sutter apparently knew both German and some Scandinavian languages: Translated Bjornstjerne M. Bjornson's Synn?ve Solbakken in 1881 <http://www.bookfinder.com/dir/i/Synnove_Solbakken/0836967585/> , where she had connection with his English version editor, Edmund Gosse. Translated a contemporary German books : " Stein, Armin, 1840-1929. Luther and the Cardinal, a historic-biographical tale," http://alpha.lib.uwo.ca:5701/search/cPT2440.N72Z63/cpt+2440+n72+z63/-5,-1,0,E/frameset&FF=cpt+2440+n71+l91&1,1, For the right, by Karl Emil Franzos http://alpha.lib.uwo.ca:5701/search/aSutter%2C+Julie./asutter+julie/-5,-1,0,B/frameset&FF=asutter+julie&1,,3 whose editor was also MacDonald: with a preface by George Macdonald And also published her own moral Christian book: "A Colony of Mercy: or Social Christianity at Work." About a religious community in the US <http://www.rootsweb.com/~nechurch/Luth/motp/pages/motp0013.htm> <http://www.biblio.com/books/2276021.html> (1893) However, I was hoping of revealing Sutter's associates, but found no traces, unless you count the two editors and the Swedish priest. By the way, the original (1866) translator was Mordaunt Roger Barnard. He was a reverend, Sutton a religious activist, and it could be that our man is hiding in the church. |
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Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: jacquot1-ga on 22 Apr 2004 14:53 PDT |
The post by Geof-ga is now making me have some second thoughts about Darfish. As I mentioned, I have not seen an original copy of the 1888 London Edition myself. Looking over now my records, the transcriptions from this 1888 London Edition that were sent to me by others may have cited Darfish from the ad in the London Times and not from the book itself. The fact that copies of this book are still for sale through antiquarian book dealers, and those ads say: Letters from Hell: Given in English by LWJS (London: Richard Bentley and Son: 1889) A New and Cheaper Edition. Cl. pp. x, 348. Originally published in Denmark, this was soon translated into English; Mac Donald later saw a German edition, and the present translation was made from that version now make me think that Geof-ga may be right. There may have been a misprint in the London Times, and that misprint was repeated in material I was sent by others. "From the Darfish" may well have been "From the Danish." This is still not certain. The internet ad cites an 1889 edition by Richard Bently and Son, London. 1889 comes after the ad in the London Times -- which appeared on Sept. 8, 1888. But there is no doubt at all that we are talking about the same English translation in both the 1888 edition advertised in the London TImes in 1888, and the 1889 edition advertised now on the Internet in Australia. Both have the introduction by Dr. George MacDonald. Moreover, MacDonald makes clear that this 1888 English edition was translated not from the original 1868 edition in Danish, but from a later version in German dialect. But Geof-ga has provided us with another clue -- possibly a BIG clue: the publishing company of Richard Bentley and Son, London, in 1889. Bentley & Son state that their edition is "given by LWJS." Here is my reason for this strange word "given." Nowhere in the 1888 ad in the London Times ad is there any mention of the original author: the Danish priest Thisted who wrote the novel in 1868 (when it was first published in Danish in Denmark.) Nowhere in MacDonald's introduction does he credit the original author Thisted. AFAIK, nowhere in the 1888 edition of this work is Thisted mentioned as the author. Only George MacDonald's name is mentioned in the 1888 London edition. MacDonald was a famous writer and author of novels in England. His name sold books. His name sold this book. 14,000 copies at least. It looks like the publisher, probably Bentley and Son, was counting on readers assuming that MacDonald wrote this novel, Letters From Hell (not merely the Introduction), to stimulate book sales. Certainly the name of a Danish priest named Thisted would not have sold 14,000 copies by Sept. 8, 1888. I don't know why the original author's name is not credited in the 1888 edition of this book -- but it isn't. The only other credit is for the translation, by LWJS. The fact that the original author's name is missing from this 1888 translation, the fact that George MacDonald does not credit Thisted in his Introduction, the fact that the original version was written in Danish, the fact that LWJS must be a partial credit because we know that JS = Julie Sutter, all add up me now that Darfish was indeed a misprint for Danish, and the word "given" is a deliberate attempt to obfuscate the name of the author Thisted and instead mislead the public into thinking the novel was written by Dr. George MacDonald. As I have already indicated, this book is almost certainly part of a larger mystery. More and more shennigans surrounding this novel are beginning to surface the more hard information becomes known about it. I am now completely convinced that LWJS is a composite credit for several translators. It was encrypted for a reason. To hide the identity of at least one person who was responsible for the translation. That person, I believe, was WS. Regards to all who are still searching, Jacquot1-ga |
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Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: jacquot1-ga on 22 Apr 2004 19:30 PDT |
Politicalguru-ga wrote: >I was hoping of revealing Sutter's associates, but found no traces, unless you count the two editors and the Swedish priest. By the way, the original (1866) translator was Mordaunt Roger Barnard. He was a reverend, Sutton a religious activist, and it could be that our man is hiding in the church. My WS was no priest. If he was hiding in a church, he would have wandered in by accident. If I am right, WS was tickled pink by George MacDonald offering him of all people the job of translating this particular book from German dialect into English. He probably laughed himself crazy as he translated every word. I don't know anything about the two editors that you mention. If their names match any of the initials in LWJS, please name them. The publisher, Richard Bentley and Son, is a clue that could be pursued. Bently paid whoever translated Letters From Hell into English. Bentley must have knows who LWJS was/were. Does anyone know whatever happened to Richard Bentley & Son? Was it absorbed by another publisher who might still be in existence today? Admittedly, I am grasping at straws. But somewhere the identity of the translators (other than Julie Sutter) is still buried, just waiting for someone to stumble across it. Julie Sutter probably knew the name(s) of her associate(s.) Maybe she mentioned him/them in a letter. Someplace the information is out there. Regards, Jacquot1-ga Regards, Jacquot1-ga |
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Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 22 Apr 2004 23:08 PDT |
About "Richard Bentley and Son": ... publishing house known successively as ... Richard Bentley and Son ( Feb. 1871- Aug. 1898 ). From 1871 to 1895 the firm was controlled by George Bentley, son of Richard Bentley I, and from 1895 to 1898 by George Bentley's son, Richard Bentley II, in whose hands the papers remained after the stock and assets were bought by Macmillan and Co. in 1898. http://www.genesis.ac.uk/archive.jsp?typeofsearch=i&term=notimpl&highlight=1&pk=2394 Richard Bentley and Son was one of the major nineteenth century publishing houses, publishing extensively both general non-fiction (travel, autobiography, history) and fiction. The records include the internal records of the firm, family papers of both Richard Bentley and his son George Bentley, correspondence with authors and some readers' reports. The original records are divided between three repositories: the British Library, the University of Illinois, and the University of California at Los Angeles. A combined edition on microfilm was issued in 1976 by Chadwyck-Healey in their series 'British publishers' archives on microfilm' with a combined index to the whole. http://www.nram.org.nz/e/77/a970.html Bentley, Richard, 1794-1871 Bentley, George, 1828-1895 http://www.nram.org.nz/e/77/a970.html These publications could be helpful: Some Leaves from the Past, by R. B. [ i.e. Richard Bentley? ], 1896 (however, this may be Richard B., 1794-1871, i.e. of no interest concerning a book published in 1888). R. A. Gettmann, 'A Victorian publisher: a study of the Bentley Papers', Cambridge, 1960. http://www.genesis.ac.uk/archive.jsp?typeofsearch=i&term=notimpl&highlight=1&pk=2394 |
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Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 22 Apr 2004 23:44 PDT |
According to the "Library of Congress Online Catalog" http://catalog.loc.gov/ Letters from hell; given in English, by L. W. J. S. with a preface by George MacDonald was published in "New York, Funk & Wagnalls, 1885" (i.e. earlier than London, 1888) and in "Montreal, J. T. Robinson, 1888". The date 1885 for New York was already mentioned in the link given by geof-ga http://www.biblio.com/browse_books/title/l/408.html i.e. http://www.biblio.com/books/1213071.html However, according to http://www.twistedhistory.com/issues/september/0910.html the publishing house owned by Funk and Wagnalls was renamed "Funk and Wagnalls" as late as 1890. |
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Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 23 Apr 2004 00:04 PDT |
Sorry, in my previous two comments I forgot to add the quotation marks where necessary. |
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Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: politicalguru-ga on 23 Apr 2004 00:53 PDT |
The author might not be included because Thisted's name was not published in any of the English editions. As I hasve noted in my first note, a pseudonym was used, M. Rowel. |
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Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 23 Apr 2004 01:05 PDT |
Well, I should have taken another look at the link in my first comment: http://blpc.bl.uk/ Apparently, the first English edition was published "London: Richard Bentley, 1884". So this English edition was published when Thisted (1815-1887) was still alive: http://www.litteraturpriser.dk/aut/tv.htm#TValdemarThisted Danish article on Thisted ("history of the Danish literature from its beginning until our time", 1881): http://www.lysator.liu.se/runeberg/dalihist/0726.html http://www.lysator.liu.se/runeberg/dalihist/ |
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Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 23 Apr 2004 11:13 PDT |
Dear Jacqout1, Perhaps you could tell us a little bit more about Julie Sutter. Where did she live when in England, where was she born, where did she die? Regards, Freddy |
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Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: jacquot1-ga on 23 Apr 2004 15:32 PDT |
What I know about Julie Sutter comes primarily from what I have learned here on Google. I have confirmed with a genuine expert on George MacDonald that Julie Sutter translated various things for publication for which George MacDonald wrote introductions -- and Letters From Hell was one of them. It is important to realize that George MacDonald was not merely someone who wrote an introduction for an edition of Letters From Hell. He was the prime mover behind the publication of this particular English translation that MacDonald himself stated was based primarily not on the original version in Danish, not on some other English version, but on the version in German dialect -- which contained important changes and additions when compared with the Danish original. We do not know who translated the novel from Danish into German dialect. I believe it is NOT important to this search to find out who translated from Danish into German dialect. The importance of the German dialect version is that it already contained changes and additions that MacDonald wanted to include in a new English translation. There is another possibility to consider. George MacDonald wanted to insert his own theological message into Thisted's Letters From Hell. The fact that the German Dialect version was somehow different from the original Danish version gave him the perfect opportunity to slip his own religious message into this novel without it being detected. No one would ever bother to compare the original Danish version, with the German dialect version, with this new English-language version to see if MacDonald added his own stuff for his own personal agenda (MacDonald was, after all, a very committed minister, as well as a writer -- perhaps even somewhat of a fanatic about certain religious ideas.) All this might explain why MacDonald wanted it known that this new English version was translated not from some German version, but an altered version in German dialect. Who would ever bother to check into that? However, the fact that this particular new English version was indeed made from an earlier version in German dialect means it would have been very difficult to find a translator in London in 1887-8 who was both fluent in German dialects and a master of written English. Maybe Julie Sutter was fluent in German dialects, I do not know. I am absolutely sure that MY WS was fluent in German, fluent in some German dialects, he spoke some Danish, and he was a master of both written and spoken English. I do not want to reveal now who MY WS was because that would influence the identification of the translators of Letters From Hell. It seems almost certain to me that George MacDonald somehow heard about MY WS, and his prodigious linguistic abilities -- specifically that WS was fluent in German dialects. Both were active in London in 1887-1888. My WS was broke. He certainly would have jumped at the chance to earn some cash by translating a novel from German dialect into English. Especially if he could remain anonymous by hiding his identy in the composite translator credit: L. W. J. S. My WS frequented the most elite circles of famous literary, artistic, political, theatrical and critical figures of that time. I know for a fact that one of George MacdDonald's closest friends was the renowned art critic John Ruskin. I believe that my WS knew Ruskin as well. I am speculating that Ruskin was their common link. If it wasn't Ruskin, there are a dozen other possibilities of famous friends in common. The new material on the Bentley & Son publishing company is extremely interesting. Maybe someone at MacMillan & Co. knows something. Maybe the identities of L. W. J. S. are somewhere inside those archives mentioned by the brilliant sleuths in this group. All I can say, if someone does come up with the identities of L. W. J. S., and the WS turns out to be my WS, I will confirm it here -- and the revelation will positively take your breath away. There is every chance that someone is going to guess my WS. Please don't forget, it is the documented link to the English edition with the introduction by George MacDonald that counts. Regards, Jacquot1-ga |
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Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 23 Apr 2004 23:35 PDT |
Dear Jacqout1, In your previous comment you wrote: "... to find a translator in London in 1887-8 ...". Well, this edition, "given in English, by L. W. J. S.", was published, as mentioned by Politicalguru and in some of my previous comments, in 1884. So the translator (or translators) would have stayed in London or somewhere nearby during 1883-4. The "material on the Bentley & Son publishing company" (mentioned in your previous comment) remained in the hands of Richard Bentley II (i.e. not forwarded to Macmillan and Co.). http://www.genesis.ac.uk/archive.jsp?typeofsearch=i&term=notimpl&highlight=1&pk=2394 My local library may have a copy of R. A. Gettmann, 'A Victorian publisher: a study of the Bentley Papers', Cambridge, 1960. I'll have a look. Regards, Freddy |
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Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 24 Apr 2004 06:49 PDT |
The British Library, Manuscript Collections, has the following: "Sutter (Julie). Miss. translator. Letter to, and agreements with R. Bentley and Son 1884-1895. Partly signed." These agreements may reveal the co-translators. Go to http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/manuscripts/INDX0000.asp and enter "Sutter (Julie)" as "Name". Other documents, such as "Sutter (Julie). Miss. author. Correspondence of, and on behalf of Miss J. Sutter, with R. Bentley 1896-1897 Partly typewritten and copies", are related to some argument between Julie Sutter and Richard Bentley about the publication of "England's Greatest Problem". According to R. A. Gettmann (1960, p. 212) this book, "although it was printed, was never issued". Gettmann mentions a "List" (1960, p. xi): "This privately printed catalogue of all works published by the House of Bentley was prepared by Richard Bentley II after his retirement. There is a List for each year, recording the books and editions of the year in chronological order with bibliographical and miscellaneous information". This "List" may be the following (BL, Manuscript Collections): "Bentley (Richard). publisher (2). Publication list, 1829-1898, compiled by 1893-1923." Interesting perhaps: "Bentley (George). publisher. Agreements with authors and others 1854-1882. Mostly signed." You will find the appropriate reference numbers by starting your search here: http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/manuscripts/INDX0000.asp |
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Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: jacquot1-ga on 24 Apr 2004 13:45 PDT |
My WS was active in London from 1878 on, through many decades. It is very possible the English edition of Letters from Hell with an introduction by George MacDonald was published as early as 1884. That poses no conflict with my WS. However, I have to wonder why Bentley or any other publisher would be advertising a four-year-old book in the London Times. Some things about the book business never change: that it is new or recent books that get promoted and sell in large numbers. Maybe for 14,000 copies to have been sold by Sept. 8, 1888, it did take four years on the book market. I would think (but don't really know) that 14,000 copies in 1888 for a theological novel by an unknown Danish priest would be a remarkable big seller. Does anyone know how many copies, similar books sold around then? Regards, Jacquot1-ga |
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Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: jacquot1-ga on 24 Apr 2004 18:40 PDT |
I may have hit something. I don't know yet what it is. The "Yellow Book" was a journal, a cultural/religious periodical, published in London around 1884 - 1897. The "Yellow Book" it was not merely a journal; it was a also a circle of important writers, artists and editors -- most of them deeply religious -- who socialized together. The editor was Henry Harland -- an American Catholic who seems to have been obsessed with ancient Jewish subjects. It was published by John Lane. There was also Aubrey Beardsley, who became art editor in 1884. His black and white ink drawings in the Yellow Book and in the book Death of King Arthur made him overnight one of the most famous artists in England, before his early death from tuberculosis. Another in the group: John Oliver Hobbes. Soon after Beardsley was let go from The Yellow Book, Beardsley was approached by Leonard Smithers, a publisher intent on creating a rival periodical. Leonard Smithers = LS? He may be our LS in LWJS. I have reason to suspect that my WS might have been associated with the Yellow Book in the 1800s. Does anyone have any information on other members in the group. The key is to find both George MacDonald and WS in this circle of the cultural elite. If anyone find another LS, or a LW -- that would be important also. Regards, Jacquot1-ga |
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Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 24 Apr 2004 23:47 PDT |
Vol. I of "The Yellow Book" was first published in 1894 (not 1884): http://www.hordern.com/stockimages/large/200203_264_01.jpg http://www.polybiblio.com/hordern/203_264.html http://www.victorianweb.org/images/yb5.gif |
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Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 25 Apr 2004 01:37 PDT |
No idea if this book could be helpful: Catalog of an exhibition held at the University of Virginia Library Feb. 2--Mar. 31, 1985: England in the 1880s: old guard and avant-garde Margaret D. Stetz and Mark Samuels Lasner; with an introduction by Jerome Hamilton Buckley Publisher: Charlottesville : University Press of Virginia, 1989. ISBN: 0-81391-137-0 http://isbndb.com/d/book/england_in_the_1880s.html Mentioning this book just in case the letters, agreements, publication list etc. in The British Library, Manuscript Collections, do not reveal the co-translators. |
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Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 25 Apr 2004 01:53 PDT |
On George Macdonald (in German) including a rather extensive bibliography: http://www.bautz.de/bbkl/m/MacDonald.shtml |
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Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 27 Jun 2004 05:19 PDT |
Dear Jacqout1, Were you able to identify WS? Just asking out of curiosity. Regards, Freddy |
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Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 28 Jun 2004 04:01 PDT |
You probably know that the father of WS (the one you presumably have in mind) lived in Denmark for a few years. |
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Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: jacquot1-ga on 28 Jun 2004 16:03 PDT |
Hello Freddy: So near -- but not there yet. I have still not been able to find documentation that establishes who WS was -- although I have indications that gives me a good idea who he was. The answer to my question, if the documentation still exists, probably lies among the business papers of the London publisher Richard Bentley and Son. As Fp-ga wrote: "Richard Bentley and Son was one of the major nineteenth century publishing houses, publishing extensively both general non-fiction (travel, autobiography, history) and fiction. The records include the internal records of the firm, family papers of both Richard Bentley and his son George Bentley, correspondence with authors and some readers' reports. The original records are divided between three repositories: the British Library, the University of Illinois, and the University of California at Los Angeles. A combined edition on microfilm was issued in 1976 by Chadwyck-Healey in their series 'British publishers' archives on microfilm' with a combined index to the whole." If Richard Bentley or his son employed and paid WS to translate "Letters From Hell," there might be some record of it among these records. The libraries I use do not have the microfilm Fp-ga mentions -- so I have not been able to search for such records -- at least not yet. It seems likely that any such evidence still exists today, that is where it might be found. Regards Jacquot1-ga |
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Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: jacquot1-ga on 28 Jun 2004 16:29 PDT |
Fp-ga wrote: "You probably know that the father of WS (the one you presumably have in mind) lived in Denmark for a few years." Yes, his father was Danish. He later moved to Munich, where WS was born. Still later, the family moved to England, and WS eventually lived in London. WS and his father spoke together in German, German dialects and occasionally in Danish. WS's father was alive before 1884 when the version of "Letters From Hell" was translated into English for the edition published by Richard Bentley and Son with an introduction by George MacDonald. So the father, who was a native speaker of German, German dialects and Danish, was available to help the son in any translation of the Thisted novel --whether from the original Danish version or the later German dialect version. Obviously, Fp-ga, you now know who I have in mind as WS. Can you help me prove he was the WS in LWJS? Regards, Jacquot1-ga |
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Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 29 Jun 2004 10:47 PDT |
Just to clarify: In my comment (22 Apr 2004 23:08 PDT) I was quoting from http://www.nram.org.nz/e/77/a970.html Therefore, these were not my own words, as you may have presumed (according to you comment, 28 Jun 2004 16:03 PDT). I'll keep on trying to prove the identity of WS. |
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Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (18
From: myoarin-ga on 02 Feb 2005 06:01 PST |
Is the discussion still open? It seems very unlikely that a Danish book would have been translated into a German dialect. Fritz Reuter, et al., had just gained acceptance of dialect for literature. Why go to the effort of translating 300+ pages to reach an even smaller audience than the Danish original. But Letters from Hell was translated to german and published in 1883 in Leipzig: http://www.buchfreund.de/index.php?a=10421&bnr=10627&s=7013_Rowel-M.-(-d.i.-Valdemar-Adolf-Thisted)_ISBN_Briefe-aus-der-H%F6lle. Could it be that the reference to a German dialect edition was a red herring (19th c. Danish could also be considered to be such) to avoid copywrite or whatever obligations to Thisted or the German publisher, and also maybe to conceal that the additions were all McDonald's? Of course, that doesn't help find the names to match the initials. |
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