Google Answers Logo
View Question
 
Q: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888) ( No Answer,   36 Comments )
Question  
Subject: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
Category: Arts and Entertainment > Books and Literature
Asked by: jacquot1-ga
List Price: $25.00
Posted: 20 Apr 2004 22:13 PDT
Expires: 20 May 2004 22:13 PDT
Question ID: 333507
I want to discover the identity of the man who TRANSLATED the
theological novel LETTERS FROM HELL into English when it was published
by Darfish in London around 1888.  I want the name (not the initials)
of the man who TRANSLATED the novel from the earlier German-dialect
version, which in turn was based on the original edition in Danish,
first published in Denmark in 1868.  The name of the TRANSLATOR was
NOT Dr. George MacDonald. Dr. MacDonald wrote an introduction (in
English) to the London edition; but he did not translate the novel. 
The OCLC catalogs identify the TRANSLATOR as LWJS.  Who was LWJS? 
Four intials are odd.  These initials may be wrong or may be a
subterfuge.  Two letters may be the real initials.  The person who
translated the novel had to be fluent in German, with a knowledge of
German dialects, and probably also with some knowledge of Danish.  The London
edition was translated was made from the German-Dialect version.  The author of
the novel was a Danish priest, Valdemar Adolph Thisted; he was NOT the
translator.  The translator was probably someone living in London
around 1887-1888.  He was not necessarily a translator or a writer. 
He may have been an important person, or someone who became important
later on.  There was an advertisement for this book in the London
Times on Sept. 8, 1888 -- quoting a review in the Morning
Advertiser, stating 14,000 copies sold.  It is possible the identity
of the translator is mentioned in a book review.  Or possibly in correspondance and
records of George MacDonald, the author of Lilith and Phantastes, who
wrote the introduction.  Or perhaps in
records of Darfish publishers.  Or perhaps buried in the text of the
book as a hidden clue.  Or perhaps in the
introduction by Dr. MacDonald (who was not the translator.) It was Dr.
MacDonald who was responsible for the publication of an English
edition of this novel; so he undoubtledly knew who translated it. 
MacDonald employed him to do it.  If you find the answer, you have to
cite your source(s).
Answer  
There is no answer at this time.

Comments  
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 21 Apr 2004 01:21 PDT
 
Could it be "Julie Sutter"?

Go to 
http://blpc.bl.uk/

Then click on "SEARCH" and enter "Sutter Julie" as "Author/Editor" (no
results if you write "Julie Sutter").
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: politicalguru-ga on 21 Apr 2004 01:40 PDT
 
Dear Jacqout1,

Thank you for this question. It might interest you and the other
Researchers to know that an online bookstore offers another version of
the book:

"[THISTED, Valdemar Adolph]. Letters from Hell. By M. Rowel.
Two volumes, octavo, blind-stamp of the Dublin bookseller J. Kearney
on flyleaf; an excellent copy, uncut in the original maroon cloth,
slightly faded. London, Richard Bentley, 1866.

First English edition of a lurid imaginary voyage to Hell, published
at the same time as a Copenhagen edition.

Thisted (1815-1887), a Danish priest, was the author of many works.
Letters from Hell starts dramatically with the death-bed perspective
of the protagonist, and quickly segues to the entrance of Hell from
whence he conducts a lively tour of his new abode, always walking a
fine line between voyeurism and Christian admonition. The work
concludes with a suitably affecting and melodramatic portrayal of his
love for his mother, made damning by her arrival in Hell, where the
two sit opposite, yet eternally distant, from each other: 'Call it
company if you will, but it is a company more barren and waste than
any desert'.

Despite the inclusion of a Preface 'which should not be overlooked'
where Thisted tries to give his work a redemptive and warning tone,
its title alone was enough to have it banned in England. It was not
until a second edition of 1884 that its popularity in England matched
that on the Continent."

(SOURCE: Hordern House, "Web catalogue: Nineteenth-century English
literature" <http://www.hordern.com/webcatalogues/19thCenturyEnglishLiterature.htm>).

In other words, if there is/was an edition in 1888, it is not the
first one or even the second one - and more importantly - at least the
first one had been translated into English alongside the publication
of the Danish original (and not from German), from which one could
(perhaps) conclude that the author was with close relations to
Thisted.

Thisted himself (or his English publisher) used the pseudonym "M. Rowel". 

Dr. John Doran is mentioned in the "Athenaeum Title Record" (City
University of London Library) as a "controbutor" to the 1866 volume:
<http://www.soi.city.ac.uk/~asp/v2/contributors/contributorfiles/tget.cgi?2044.html@LettersfromHell>,
which probably means that he reviewed the book.

My conclusions so far: 

- It might be necessary to compare the 1866 and the 1884 versions, in
order to see if MacDonalds' version is different in anything that
could indicate that the 1884 is a new translation.

- In addition, contemporary review pieces, like the one mentioned
before, might reveal the name of the translator.

- Both of these, as well as any primary resource, are not available
online. It would (probably) not be possible to use web-resources only
to solve this mystery. If a Researcher might have to do a library
research on this one, I'm afraid that the current compensation might
not cover the travel expenses and the hours involved.
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: politicalguru-ga on 21 Apr 2004 01:44 PDT
 
blushing, FP...
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 21 Apr 2004 04:02 PDT
 
Well, Politicalguru, I is not yet proven that LWJS and Julie Sutter
are indeed identical.
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 21 Apr 2004 04:19 PDT
 
I tried to find some additional information on Julie Sutter ... no results.

Links to archives holding papers by George MacDonald (1824-1905):

http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/iss/archives/collect/10ma25-1.html
or
http://www.aim25.ac.uk/cgi-bin/search2?coll_id=2891&inst_id=6

and
http://oasis.harvard.edu/html/hou00361.html
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 21 Apr 2004 04:27 PDT
 
Sorry ..., I had intended to write "it is not yet proven".
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 21 Apr 2004 05:00 PDT
 
"Miss Julie Sutter ..."

http://www.rootsweb.com/~nechurch/Luth/motp/pages/motp0013.htm
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: jacquot1-ga on 21 Apr 2004 11:08 PDT
 
The name of Julie Sutter may be a BIG clue, but she is NOT the primary
person responsible for the translation.  I had mentioned that the
intials may have been a subterfuge.  Now I believe the intials LWJS
were a subterfuge -- an encrypted clue.  I believe the translation was
the collaborative work of three people -- all of whose surnames began
with the letter S.  There was JS = Julie Sutter (not important.) 
There was LS = ?? (not important.)  And then there was WS = ??  VERY
IMPORTANT.  I will tell you all that the identification of this person
is not a trivial matter.  This is not a question of just finding out
who translated this novel from German-dialect, or Danish, into
English.  This person may have been a well-known person, a significant
figure in British history, living in London in 1887-1888.  I am not
interested in guesses who WS might have been.  I am looking for an ID,
a connection with a source -- any kind of source that can be
documented.  The best bet is to find some connection of WS with the
writer George MacDonald -- who must have known who was responsible for
the English translation.  Speculation is OK, because it may give
someone an idea where to investigate.  But I am looking for a positive
ID of some connection between a WS and a person who translated this
novel into English

Happy hunting,
Jacquot1-ga

PS It might be useful to come up with the identity of LS also, just to
prove that the four intitials were in fact an encrypted clue.  But LS
cannot possibly be the person who was primarily behind this
translation into English of Letters From Hell.  It must have been WS.
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: jacquot1-ga on 21 Apr 2004 11:32 PDT
 
Please forgive my repeated misspelling of initials -- a mistake I
sometimes make when I type too fast.

There may have been other editions of Letters from Hell in English.  I
have information that Funk and Wagnalls published an English edition
in 1885.  I am ONLY interested in the 1888 edition published in London
by Darfish with an introduction by Dr. George MacDonald.  Other
editions, including the original edition in Danish by Visted are
irrelvant to the question of naming WS.

Once again, the best bet is finding a link between WS and George MacDonald.

Jacquot1-ga
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 22 Apr 2004 02:01 PDT
 
Why do you consider WS as "very important", and LS as "not important"?

Could it be the collaborative work not "of three people", but of two,
i.e. JS (= Julie Sutter) and LW (= ...)?
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: geof-ga on 22 Apr 2004 08:15 PDT
 
Sorry, I don't think there was any publisher called "Darfish"; this
was almost certainly a misprint for the word "Danish" in the 1888
Times extract to which you refer. (I can find no other works published
by "Darfish".) The publishers in England of "Letters from Hell" from
the original in 1866 through the later editions in the 1880s were
Richard Bentley. When the book appeared in the US in the 1880s the
publishers were Funk & Wagnalls.

The following web pages contain references to the book and its publishing history:

http://www.pioneerbooks.com.au/lists/0054.html (Look under L.W.J.S)

http://www.biblio.com/browse_books/title/l/408.html (See number a4894)
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: geof-ga on 22 Apr 2004 08:19 PDT
 
Re my comment above. Sorry, the web pages are correct, but my
bracketed notes are switched. IE look under L.W.J.S on the biblio
site; and a4894 on Pioneer.
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: jacquot1-ga on 22 Apr 2004 12:46 PDT
 
There is no doubt whatsoever about the ad for this book in the London
Times on September 8, 1888.  I have seen this ad myself.  The ad
states:

"Letters From Hell
14th Thousand. From the Darfish. With an introduction by DR. GEORGE
MACDONALD. In one vol., crown 8vo., 6s. "Should be read by every
thinking mind."-Morning Advertiser."

Also, there is no doubt whatsoever that the Darfish edition of this
novel exists.  While I have not seen an original copy of it myself, I
have substantial portions of it transcribed by others who do have
access to original copies.  After all, at least 14,000 copies of this
book were sold -- and undoubtedly more were sold after the ad appeared
in the London Times on Sept. 8, 1888.

For those who are seriously trying to find the answer to this mystery
about the identity of the translators, I repeat: all other editions of
Letters From Hell are totally irrelevant to the question of
identifying the translators of this English edition of the novel --
one of whom we know was Julie Sutter (I have confirmed that fact with
other sources).

The question about two translators instead of three is a good one.  It
is indeed possible that L. W. J. S. = L. W. + Julie Sutter.  If anyone
can come up with a source naming L. W. as a translator of this book,
that would eliminate the possibility of W. S.

Conversely, If anyone can come up with the name of a translator L. S.
for this book, that would also confirm the existence of W. S.

Why am I so sure that W. S. exists and that he is VERY IMPORTANT? 
Because I already have an idea who W. S. is.  I do not want to reveal
my idea yet because I do not want to tilt the search.  What I want to
find is a source, any source that indicates the name of a man with the
initials W. S. who translated Letters from Hell for George MacDonald,
from German dialect into English, around 1888.  If one of you were to
come up with a translator for this book with the initials W. S. who is
not the person I have in mind, that would also be OK -- even though
that would disprove any connection between this book and the person I
have in mind. A documented WS who translated this book wins the prize,
whoever WS might have been.

The man who I have in mind, a significant person, was fluent not only
in German but in German dialects, in addition to his total mastery of
English.  There are documented instances in his life of him using
cryptic aliases to hide his identity in various activities.  He lived
in London throughout the 1880s, unquestionably in 1888.  He knew
personally many of the most famous literary, artistic, political and
theatrical personalities of the era.  I do not know whether he knew
George MacDonald personally (he certainly knew about George
MacDonald), or whether George MacDonald knew about him.  But if the
two did in fact know each other, BINGO!

Guesses of famous people with the initials W. S. do me no good.  The
only thing that will answer my question is the documented name or
names of the other 1 or 2 translators besides Julie Sutton who
translated this book for George MacDonald.  The translators must have
the initials either: WS, or LS or LW.

Incidentally, I will certainly credit anyone who finds the name and
source, if I write anything about it.

Jacquot1-ga
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: politicalguru-ga on 22 Apr 2004 14:28 PDT
 
More about the "unimportant" Julie Sutter: Ms. Sutter apparently knew
both German and some Scandinavian languages:

Translated Bjornstjerne M. Bjornson's Synn?ve Solbakken in 1881 
<http://www.bookfinder.com/dir/i/Synnove_Solbakken/0836967585/> ,
where she had connection with his English version editor, Edmund
Gosse.

Translated a contemporary German books : 
"	Stein, Armin, 1840-1929. Luther and the Cardinal, a historic-biographical tale," 
http://alpha.lib.uwo.ca:5701/search/cPT2440.N72Z63/cpt+2440+n72+z63/-5,-1,0,E/frameset&FF=cpt+2440+n71+l91&1,1,

For the right, by Karl Emil Franzos
http://alpha.lib.uwo.ca:5701/search/aSutter%2C+Julie./asutter+julie/-5,-1,0,B/frameset&FF=asutter+julie&1,,3
whose editor was also MacDonald: with a preface by George Macdonald

And also published her own moral Christian book: 
 "A Colony of Mercy: or Social Christianity at Work."
About a religious community in the US 
<http://www.rootsweb.com/~nechurch/Luth/motp/pages/motp0013.htm> 
<http://www.biblio.com/books/2276021.html> (1893)

However, I was hoping of revealing Sutter's associates, but found no
traces, unless you count the two editors and the Swedish priest. By
the way, the original (1866) translator was  Mordaunt Roger Barnard.
He was a reverend, Sutton a religious activist, and it could be that
our man is hiding in the church.
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: jacquot1-ga on 22 Apr 2004 14:53 PDT
 
The post by Geof-ga is now making me have some second thoughts about
Darfish.  As I mentioned, I have not seen an original copy of the 1888
London Edition myself.  Looking over now my records, the
transcriptions from this 1888 London Edition that were sent to me by
others may have cited Darfish from the ad in the London Times and not
from the book itself.  The fact that copies of this book are still for
sale through antiquarian book dealers, and those ads say:

Letters from Hell: Given in English by LWJS 
(London: Richard Bentley and Son: 1889) A New and Cheaper Edition. Cl.
pp. x, 348. Originally published in Denmark, this was soon translated
into English; Mac Donald later saw a German edition, and the present
translation was made from that version

now make me think that Geof-ga may be right.  There may have been a
misprint in the London Times, and that misprint was repeated in
material I was sent by others.  "From the Darfish" may well have been
"From the Danish."  This is still not certain.  The internet ad cites
an 1889 edition by Richard Bently and Son, London.  1889 comes after
the ad in the London Times -- which appeared on Sept. 8, 1888.  But
there is no doubt at all that we are talking about the same English
translation in both the 1888 edition advertised in the London TImes in
1888, and the 1889 edition advertised now on the Internet in
Australia.  Both have the introduction by Dr. George MacDonald. 
Moreover, MacDonald makes clear that this 1888 English edition was
translated not from the original 1868 edition in Danish, but from a
later version in German dialect.

But Geof-ga has provided us with another clue -- possibly a BIG clue:
the publishing company of Richard Bentley and Son, London, in 1889. 
Bentley & Son state that their edition is "given by LWJS."

Here is my reason for this strange word "given."  Nowhere in the 1888
ad in the London Times ad is there any mention of the original author:
the Danish priest Thisted who wrote the novel in 1868 (when it was
first published in Danish in Denmark.) Nowhere in MacDonald's
introduction does he credit the original author Thisted. AFAIK,
nowhere in the 1888 edition of this work is Thisted mentioned as the
author.  Only George MacDonald's name is mentioned in the 1888 London
edition.  MacDonald was a famous writer and author of novels in
England.  His name sold books.  His name sold this book.  14,000
copies at least. It looks like the publisher, probably Bentley and
Son, was counting on readers assuming that MacDonald wrote this novel,
Letters From Hell (not merely the Introduction), to stimulate book
sales.  Certainly the name of a Danish priest named Thisted would not
have sold 14,000 copies by Sept. 8, 1888.  I don't know why the
original author's name is not credited in the 1888 edition of this
book -- but it isn't.  The only other credit is for the translation,
by LWJS.  The fact that the original author's name is missing from
this 1888 translation, the fact that George MacDonald does not credit
Thisted in his Introduction, the fact that the original version was
written in Danish, the fact that LWJS must be a partial credit because
we know that JS = Julie Sutter, all add up me now that Darfish was
indeed a misprint for Danish, and the word "given" is a deliberate
attempt to obfuscate the name of the author Thisted and instead
mislead the public into thinking the novel was written by Dr. George
MacDonald.

As I have already indicated, this book is almost certainly part of a
larger mystery.  More and more shennigans surrounding this novel are
beginning to surface the more hard information becomes known about it.

I am now completely convinced that LWJS is a composite credit for
several translators.  It was encrypted for a reason.  To hide the
identity of at least one person who was responsible for the
translation.  That person, I believe, was WS.

Regards to all who are still searching,
Jacquot1-ga
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: jacquot1-ga on 22 Apr 2004 19:30 PDT
 
Politicalguru-ga wrote: 
>I was hoping of revealing Sutter's associates, but found no
traces, unless you count the two editors and the Swedish priest. By
the way, the original (1866) translator was  Mordaunt Roger Barnard.
He was a reverend, Sutton a religious activist, and it could be that
our man is hiding in the church.

My WS was no priest.  If he was hiding in a church, he would have
wandered in by accident.  If I am right, WS was tickled pink by George
MacDonald offering him of all people the job of translating this
particular book from German dialect into English.  He probably laughed
himself crazy as he translated every word.  I don't know anything
about the two editors that you mention.  If their names match any of
the initials in LWJS, please name them.

The publisher, Richard Bentley and Son, is a clue that could be
pursued.  Bently paid whoever translated Letters From Hell into
English.  Bentley must have knows who LWJS was/were. Does anyone know
whatever happened to Richard Bentley & Son?  Was it absorbed by
another publisher who might still be in existence today?  Admittedly,
I am grasping at straws.  But somewhere the identity of the
translators (other than Julie Sutter) is still buried, just waiting
for someone to stumble across it.

Julie Sutter probably knew the name(s) of her associate(s.)  Maybe she
mentioned him/them in a letter.

Someplace the information is out there.

Regards,
Jacquot1-ga

Regards,
Jacquot1-ga
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 22 Apr 2004 23:08 PDT
 
About "Richard Bentley and Son":

... publishing house known successively as ... Richard Bentley and Son
( Feb. 1871- Aug. 1898 ). From 1871 to 1895 the firm was controlled by
George Bentley, son of Richard Bentley I, and from 1895 to 1898 by
George Bentley's son, Richard Bentley II, in whose hands the papers
remained after the stock and assets were bought by Macmillan and Co.
in 1898.

http://www.genesis.ac.uk/archive.jsp?typeofsearch=i&term=notimpl&highlight=1&pk=2394


Richard Bentley and Son was one of the major nineteenth century
publishing houses, publishing extensively both general non-fiction
(travel, autobiography, history) and fiction. The records include the
internal records of the firm, family papers of both Richard Bentley
and his son George Bentley, correspondence with authors and some
readers' reports.

The original records are divided between three repositories: the
British Library, the University of Illinois, and the University of
California at Los Angeles. A combined edition on microfilm was issued
in 1976 by Chadwyck-Healey in their series 'British publishers'
archives on microfilm' with a combined index to the whole.

http://www.nram.org.nz/e/77/a970.html

Bentley, Richard, 1794-1871 
Bentley, George, 1828-1895 

http://www.nram.org.nz/e/77/a970.html


These publications could be helpful:

Some Leaves from the Past, by R. B. [ i.e. Richard Bentley? ], 1896
(however, this may be Richard B., 1794-1871, i.e. of no interest
concerning a book published in 1888).

R. A. Gettmann, 'A Victorian publisher: a study of the Bentley
Papers', Cambridge, 1960.

http://www.genesis.ac.uk/archive.jsp?typeofsearch=i&term=notimpl&highlight=1&pk=2394
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 22 Apr 2004 23:44 PDT
 
According to the "Library of Congress Online Catalog"
http://catalog.loc.gov/

Letters from hell; given in English, by L. W. J. S. with a preface by
George MacDonald

was published in "New York, Funk & Wagnalls, 1885" (i.e. earlier than London, 1888)
and
in "Montreal, J. T. Robinson, 1888".

The date 1885 for New York was already mentioned in the link given by geof-ga
http://www.biblio.com/browse_books/title/l/408.html
i.e.
http://www.biblio.com/books/1213071.html

However, according to 
http://www.twistedhistory.com/issues/september/0910.html
the publishing house owned by Funk and Wagnalls was renamed "Funk and
Wagnalls" as late as 1890.
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 23 Apr 2004 00:04 PDT
 
Sorry, in my previous two comments I forgot to add the quotation marks
where necessary.
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: politicalguru-ga on 23 Apr 2004 00:53 PDT
 
The author might not be included because Thisted's name was not
published in any of the English editions. As I hasve noted in my first
note, a pseudonym was used, M. Rowel.
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 23 Apr 2004 01:05 PDT
 
Well, I should have taken another look at the link in my first comment:
http://blpc.bl.uk/

Apparently, the first English edition was published "London: Richard
Bentley, 1884".

So this English edition was published when Thisted (1815-1887) was still alive:
http://www.litteraturpriser.dk/aut/tv.htm#TValdemarThisted

Danish article on Thisted ("history of the Danish literature from its
beginning until our time", 1881):
http://www.lysator.liu.se/runeberg/dalihist/0726.html

http://www.lysator.liu.se/runeberg/dalihist/
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 23 Apr 2004 11:13 PDT
 
Dear Jacqout1,
Perhaps you could tell us a little bit more about Julie Sutter. Where
did she live when in England, where was she born, where did she die?

Regards,
Freddy
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: jacquot1-ga on 23 Apr 2004 15:32 PDT
 
What I know about Julie Sutter comes primarily from what I have
learned here on Google.  I have confirmed with a genuine expert on
George MacDonald that Julie Sutter translated various things for
publication for which George MacDonald wrote introductions -- and
Letters From Hell was one of them.

It is important to realize that George MacDonald was not merely
someone who wrote an introduction for an edition of Letters From Hell.
 He was the prime mover behind the publication of this particular
English translation that MacDonald himself stated was based primarily
not on the original version in Danish, not on some other English
version, but on the version in German dialect -- which contained
important changes and additions when compared with the Danish
original.  We do not know who translated the novel from Danish into
German dialect.  I believe it is NOT important to this search to find
out who translated from Danish into German dialect.  The importance of
the German dialect version is that it already contained changes and
additions that MacDonald wanted to include in a new English
translation.

There is another possibility to consider.  George MacDonald wanted to
insert his own theological message into Thisted's Letters From Hell. 
The fact that the German Dialect version was somehow different from
the original Danish version gave him the perfect opportunity to slip
his own religious message into this novel without it being detected. 
No one would ever bother to compare the original Danish version, with
the German dialect version, with this new English-language version to
see if MacDonald added his own stuff for his own personal agenda
(MacDonald was, after all, a very committed minister, as well as a
writer -- perhaps even somewhat of a fanatic about certain religious
ideas.)  All this might explain why MacDonald wanted it known that
this new English version was translated not from some German version,
but an altered version in German dialect.  Who would ever bother to
check into that?

However, the fact that this particular new English version was indeed
made from an earlier version in German dialect means it would have
been very difficult to find a translator in London in 1887-8 who was
both fluent in German dialects and a master of written English.  Maybe
Julie Sutter was fluent in German dialects, I do not know.  I am
absolutely sure that MY WS was fluent in German, fluent in some German
dialects, he spoke some Danish, and he was a master of both written
and spoken English.  I do not want to reveal now who MY WS was because
that would influence the identification of the translators of Letters
From Hell.

It seems almost certain to me that George MacDonald somehow heard
about MY WS, and his prodigious linguistic abilities -- specifically
that WS was fluent in German dialects.  Both were active in London in
1887-1888.  My WS was broke.  He certainly would have jumped at the
chance to earn some cash by translating a novel from German dialect
into English.  Especially if he could remain anonymous by hiding his
identy in the composite translator credit: L. W. J. S.  My WS
frequented the most elite circles of famous literary, artistic,
political, theatrical and critical figures of that time.  I know for a
fact that one of George MacdDonald's closest friends was the renowned
art critic John Ruskin.  I believe that my WS knew Ruskin as well.  I
am speculating that Ruskin was their common link.  If it wasn't
Ruskin, there are a dozen other possibilities of famous friends in
common.

The new material on the Bentley & Son publishing company is extremely
interesting.  Maybe someone at MacMillan & Co. knows something.  Maybe
the identities of L. W. J. S. are somewhere inside those archives
mentioned by the brilliant sleuths in this group.

All I can say, if someone does come up with the identities of L. W. J.
S., and the WS turns out to be my WS, I will confirm it here -- and
the revelation will positively take your breath away.  There is every
chance that someone is going to guess my WS.  Please don't forget, it
is the documented link to the English edition with the introduction by
George MacDonald that counts.

Regards,
Jacquot1-ga
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 23 Apr 2004 23:35 PDT
 
Dear Jacqout1,

In your previous comment you wrote: "... to find a translator in
London in 1887-8 ...".
Well, this edition, "given in English, by L. W. J. S.", was published,
as mentioned by Politicalguru and in some of my previous comments, in
1884. So the translator (or translators) would have stayed in London
or somewhere nearby during 1883-4.

The "material on the Bentley & Son publishing company" (mentioned in
your previous comment) remained in the hands of Richard Bentley II
(i.e. not forwarded to Macmillan and Co.).
http://www.genesis.ac.uk/archive.jsp?typeofsearch=i&term=notimpl&highlight=1&pk=2394

My local library may have a copy of R. A. Gettmann, 'A Victorian
publisher: a study of the Bentley Papers', Cambridge, 1960. I'll have
a look.

Regards,
Freddy
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 24 Apr 2004 06:49 PDT
 
The British Library, Manuscript Collections, has the following:
"Sutter (Julie). Miss. translator. Letter to, and agreements with R.
Bentley and Son 1884-1895. Partly signed."

These agreements may reveal the co-translators.

Go to
http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/manuscripts/INDX0000.asp
and enter "Sutter (Julie)" as "Name".

Other documents, such as
"Sutter (Julie). Miss. author. Correspondence of, and on behalf of
Miss J. Sutter, with R. Bentley 1896-1897 Partly typewritten and
copies",
are related to some argument between Julie Sutter and Richard Bentley
about the publication of "England's Greatest Problem". According to R.
A. Gettmann (1960, p. 212) this book, "although it was printed, was
never issued".

Gettmann mentions a "List" (1960, p. xi): "This privately  printed
catalogue of all works published by the House of Bentley was prepared
by Richard Bentley II after his retirement. There is a List for each
year, recording the books and editions of the year in chronological
order with bibliographical and miscellaneous information".

This "List" may be the following (BL, Manuscript Collections):
"Bentley (Richard). publisher (2). Publication list, 1829-1898,
compiled by 1893-1923."

Interesting perhaps:
"Bentley (George). publisher. Agreements with authors and others
1854-1882. Mostly signed."

You will find the appropriate reference numbers by starting your search here:
http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/manuscripts/INDX0000.asp
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: jacquot1-ga on 24 Apr 2004 13:45 PDT
 
My WS was active in London from 1878 on, through many decades. 

It is very possible the English edition of Letters from Hell with an
introduction by George MacDonald was published as early as 1884.  That
poses no conflict with my WS.  However, I have to wonder why Bentley
or any other publisher would be advertising a four-year-old book in
the London Times.  Some things about the book business never change:
that it is new or recent books that get promoted and sell in large
numbers.  Maybe for 14,000 copies to have been sold by Sept. 8, 1888,
it did take four years on the book market.  I would think (but don't
really know) that 14,000 copies in 1888 for a theological novel by an
unknown Danish priest would be a remarkable big seller.  Does anyone
know how many copies, similar books sold around then?

Regards,
Jacquot1-ga
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: jacquot1-ga on 24 Apr 2004 18:40 PDT
 
I may have hit something.  I don't know yet what it is.

The "Yellow Book" was a journal, a cultural/religious periodical,
published in London around 1884 - 1897.  The "Yellow Book" it was not
merely a journal; it was a also a circle of important writers, artists
and editors -- most of them deeply religious -- who socialized
together. The editor was Henry Harland -- an American Catholic who
seems to have been obsessed with ancient Jewish subjects.  It was
published by John Lane.  There was also Aubrey Beardsley, who became
art editor in 1884.  His black and white ink drawings in the Yellow
Book and in the book Death of King Arthur made him overnight one of
the most famous artists in England, before his early death from
tuberculosis.  Another in the group: John Oliver Hobbes. Soon after
Beardsley was let go from The Yellow Book, Beardsley was approached by
Leonard Smithers, a publisher intent on creating a rival periodical. 
Leonard Smithers = LS?  He may be our LS in LWJS.  I have reason to
suspect that my WS might have been associated with the Yellow Book in
the 1800s.  Does anyone have any information on other members in the
group.  The key is to find both George MacDonald and WS in this circle
of the cultural elite.  If anyone find another LS, or a LW -- that
would be important also.

Regards,
Jacquot1-ga
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 24 Apr 2004 23:47 PDT
 
Vol. I of "The Yellow Book" was first published in 1894 (not 1884):

http://www.hordern.com/stockimages/large/200203_264_01.jpg

http://www.polybiblio.com/hordern/203_264.html

http://www.victorianweb.org/images/yb5.gif
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 25 Apr 2004 01:37 PDT
 
No idea if this book could be helpful:

Catalog of an exhibition held at the University of Virginia Library
Feb. 2--Mar. 31, 1985:
England in the 1880s: old guard and avant-garde
Margaret D. Stetz and Mark Samuels Lasner; with an introduction by
Jerome Hamilton Buckley
Publisher: Charlottesville : University Press of Virginia, 1989.
ISBN: 0-81391-137-0
http://isbndb.com/d/book/england_in_the_1880s.html

Mentioning this book just in case the letters, agreements, publication
list etc. in The British Library, Manuscript Collections, do not
reveal the co-translators.
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 25 Apr 2004 01:53 PDT
 
On George Macdonald (in German) including a rather extensive bibliography:

http://www.bautz.de/bbkl/m/MacDonald.shtml
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 27 Jun 2004 05:19 PDT
 
Dear Jacqout1,

Were you able to identify WS? Just asking out of curiosity.

Regards,
Freddy
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 28 Jun 2004 04:01 PDT
 
You probably know that the father of WS (the one you presumably have
in mind) lived in Denmark for a few years.
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: jacquot1-ga on 28 Jun 2004 16:03 PDT
 
Hello Freddy:

So near -- but not there yet.  I have still not been able to find
documentation that establishes who WS was -- although I have
indications that gives me a good idea who he was.

The answer to my question, if the documentation still exists, probably
lies among the business papers of the London publisher Richard Bentley
and Son.

As Fp-ga wrote: "Richard Bentley and Son was one of the major nineteenth century
publishing houses, publishing extensively both general non-fiction
(travel, autobiography, history) and fiction. The records include the
internal records of the firm, family papers of both Richard Bentley
and his son George Bentley, correspondence with authors and some
readers' reports. The original records are divided between three repositories: the
British Library, the University of Illinois, and the University of
California at Los Angeles. A combined edition on microfilm was issued
in 1976 by Chadwyck-Healey in their series 'British publishers'
archives on microfilm' with a combined index to the whole."

If Richard Bentley or his son employed and paid WS to translate
"Letters From Hell," there might be some record of it among these
records.  The libraries I use do not have the microfilm Fp-ga mentions
-- so I have not been able to search for such records -- at least not
yet.  It seems likely that any such evidence still exists today, that
is where it might be found.

Regards
Jacquot1-ga
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: jacquot1-ga on 28 Jun 2004 16:29 PDT
 
Fp-ga wrote:
"You probably know that the father of WS (the one you presumably have
in mind) lived in Denmark for a few years."

Yes, his father was Danish.  He later moved to Munich, where WS was
born.  Still later, the family moved to England, and WS eventually
lived in London.  WS and his father spoke together in German, German
dialects and occasionally in Danish.  WS's father was alive before
1884 when the version of "Letters From Hell" was translated into
English for the edition published by Richard Bentley and Son with an
introduction by George MacDonald.  So the father, who was a native
speaker of German, German dialects and Danish, was available to help
the son in any translation of the Thisted novel --whether from the
original Danish version or the later German dialect version.

Obviously, Fp-ga, you now know who I have in mind as WS.  Can you help
me prove he was the WS in LWJS?

Regards,
Jacquot1-ga
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (1888)
From: fp-ga on 29 Jun 2004 10:47 PDT
 
Just to clarify: In my comment (22 Apr 2004 23:08 PDT) I was quoting from
http://www.nram.org.nz/e/77/a970.html

Therefore, these were not my own words, as you may have presumed
(according to you comment, 28 Jun 2004 16:03 PDT).

I'll keep on trying to prove the identity of WS.
Subject: Re: Seek NAME (not initials) of TRANSLATOR of LETTERS FROM HELL into English (18
From: myoarin-ga on 02 Feb 2005 06:01 PST
 
Is the discussion still open?
It seems very unlikely that a Danish book would have been translated
into a German dialect.  Fritz Reuter, et al., had just gained
acceptance of dialect for literature.  Why go to the effort of
translating 300+ pages to reach an even smaller audience than the
Danish original.
But Letters from Hell was translated to german and published in 1883 in Leipzig:
http://www.buchfreund.de/index.php?a=10421&bnr=10627&s=7013_Rowel-M.-(-d.i.-Valdemar-Adolf-Thisted)_ISBN_Briefe-aus-der-H%F6lle.

Could it be that the reference to a German dialect edition was a red
herring (19th c. Danish could also be considered to be such) to avoid
copywrite or whatever obligations to Thisted or the German publisher,
and also maybe to conceal that the additions were all McDonald's?

Of course, that doesn't help find the names to match the initials.

Important Disclaimer: Answers and comments provided on Google Answers are general information, and are not intended to substitute for informed professional medical, psychiatric, psychological, tax, legal, investment, accounting, or other professional advice. Google does not endorse, and expressly disclaims liability for any product, manufacturer, distributor, service or service provider mentioned or any opinion expressed in answers or comments. Please read carefully the Google Answers Terms of Service.

If you feel that you have found inappropriate content, please let us know by emailing us at answers-support@google.com with the question ID listed above. Thank you.
Search Google Answers for
Google Answers  


Google Home - Answers FAQ - Terms of Service - Privacy Policy