How much does land cost in Ayer's Cliff, Eastern Townships, Quebec, in
the area around Lake Massawippi a) with frontage on the lake b) with
access to the lake or c) with no access and no frontage?

---

Request for Question Clarification by hummer-ga on 02 Jun 2004 16:56 PDT

Hi deborahx,

It would be helpful for researchers to know more about the type of
property you are enquiring about. For example, just the land with no
buildings? Agriculture Green Zone or White Zone? How much land -
acreage or just a lot? Wooded? Utilities in place? Historical values
realized or current asking prices? From the point of view of the buyer
or the seller?

Thank you,
hummer

---

Clarification of Question by deborahx-ga on 02 Jun 2004 19:05 PDT

I guess I am hoping for a fairly comprhensive report and would
probably be willing to up the price if I could get it - but this is my
first time trying Google Answers and I am not sure what quality of
report to expect.  Your questions are excellent ones that tell me you
are probably able to find what I want to know...

I am interested in white zone only, but I am interested both as a
buyer and as a seller.  I am also interested in lots with services,
lots without services, and raw acreage, wooded, in increments of 1 or
2 acres and for property in excess of 30 acres. I am interested in
historical values and current asking prices.

As to buildings, I would be interested in knowing about recent sales
and the type of property involved.

I guess I would like to know as much as possible about land (and
building) values in the area.  For easy presentation and comparison,
land values could be expressed in price per square foot for each of
the various combinations and permutations. I would like to have a
guide to figure out what is the added value for a) roads b) sewer, c)
utilities, etc..

For land with building, I guess I would want to know size and land
value of the lot, and the type of building. I would be intersted in
knowing historical values and current asking prices.

---

Request for Question Clarification by hummer-ga on 03 Jun 2004 07:57 PDT

Dear deborahx,

Thank you for your clarification. After three to four hours of
preliminary research regarding property values in Ayer's Cliff, we can
say that researching with such a broad scope of parameters would take
days (more likely weeks). Someone with an intimate knowledge and
awareness in the historical and current evaluation of property in
Ayer's Cliff is needed - it may be in a study of marketing trends
somewhere, but we've not been able to find it online. Also, are you
bilingual? A working knowledge of French is needed to access many
websites.

I'm afraid the price you offered ($37.50 after Google takes its 25%)
won't be enough to cover the amount of work required to research your
question. Rather than raise the price of the question, it would be
better to pay someone with specific knowledge of sources and/or
experience of the local market.

So, we wondered how we could approach this and we think that we can
offer you a good alternative (a reasonable redirection but we can't
guarantee success).  If you'd like, we could give you a comprehensive
list of contacts, including evaluators, access to a fee-based system
where you can look up specific lots, etc. Would you be interested in
something like that? If so, let me know and we'll try to have it done
by the end of the day. Given our answer would not be in direct
response to your original question, you could re-evaluate and adjust
your price if you wish.

Regards,
hummer & co.

---

Clarification of Question by deborahx-ga on 03 Jun 2004 11:20 PDT

Dear Hummer,

Thank you for your prompt and forthright response to my challenging
question.  I am aware of a number of local property evaluators, as
well as of the Government online registry system where I can research
specific lots.  If you know of any other sites that could assist me, I
would be interested in receiving these links. I would also be
interested in receiving any information from newspaper articles or
other reports that discuss land values in the area, whether in English
or in French. Can you suggest any other way to narrow the field and
get me closer to the answers I need concerning land values?

Dear deborahx,

Thank you for your kind words and for giving me the opportunity to
post this as an answer, I appreciate it. I'm sorry it's not exactly
what you had hoped for, but it is a good jumping off place for your
next phase. We will have another look for that elusive study (McGill
perhaps?) and post it if we have any luck.

Sincerely,
hummer


>>>>>>>>>>

Ayers Cliff is part of the Memphremagog MRC (MRC = municipalité
régionale de comté / municipal regional council). Among other things,
the MRCs manage the property evaluations that the municipalities use
for their tax rolls.

MRC de Memphrémagog:
455, rue MacDonald
Magog (Québec) J1X 1M2
Téléphone : 819-843-9292
http://www.mrcmemphremagog.com/index.html

"Liste des municipalités": 
Ayer's Cliff: Téléphone : (819) 838-5006
Hatley: Téléphone : (819) 838-5877
Ste-Catherine-de-Hatley: Téléphone : (819) 843-1935
http://www.mrcmemphremagog.com/munic.html

>>>>>>>>>>

A map of the Memphremagog MRC showing municipal jurisdictions:
(it's a 'javascript viewer' .pdf - suggestion: once you orient
yourself, view the map at 200% or more and use the "hand tool"):
http://www.mrcmemphremagog.com/cartes.html

Note that most of the western side of Lake Massawippi is in the
municipality of Sainte-Catherine-de-Hatley, much of the eastern shore
in Hatley, and that Ayers Cliff is a much smaller part of the
waterfront.
I do not have a URL for a map of Ayer's Cliff sufficient to identify
land use zones or town building lots. The Town Office replied by phone
that the Town Building Inspector has such a map but was not in the
office today - you can make an appointment with him by  phone (819 838
5006). Identifying specific lot numbers as examples of the various
types of properties you ask about (let's say three of each?) will be
necessary (and should be sufficient) for research of the historical
deeds records (see: "Registre foncier du Québec").

>>>>>>>>>>

Bulletin d?Orford Hiver 2004 - "Le nouveau rôle d?évaluation"
"...MRC située au 455, rue McDonald à Magog."
"...l?évaluateur, monsieur Jean-Pierre Cadrin, au (819) 843-3635."
http://www.canton.orford.qc.ca/documents/Hiver2004.pdf

>>>>>>>>>>

Municipal evaluations are performed by the MRC. Evaluators most likely
use formulas into which they enter information for each specific
property (land value variables such as you are interested in). If they
do that for real properties, could they do the same for theoretical
properties you might present to them? ...or offer anonymous real
property examples corresponding to your paramaters? Here is the
directory of the Quebec Order of Certified Evaluators and three from
the Memphremagog MRC (one of them the MRC's municipal evaluator):

Ordre des évaluateurs agréés du Québec (OEAQ):
http://www.oeaq.qc.ca/accueil.htm
Liste de membres:
http://www.oeaq.qc.ca/main_liste_ea_prive.htm

Répertoire des membres:
...Ville > Magog:
http://www.oeaq.qc.ca/frame_set.htm

*** Liens utiles *** Links:
RECHERCHES DE TRANSACTIONS
Pour obtenir de l'information détaillée sur les transactions immobilières 
RECHERCHES DE DONNÉES
Informations diverses sur les immeubles à vendre
MANUELS DE COÛT
Coût de remplacement
http://www.oeaq.qc.ca/48_liens.htm

>>>>>>>>>>

In Quebec, the 'notaire' is the legal agent for the registration and
transfer of 'immobilier'. The following website offers a history and
explanation of the notarial system in Quebec:

Notaries in Quebec:
"In Quebec, the notary acts in all areas of the law except litigation.
The conveyancing of immovable property ("real estate" in common law)
constitutes the major sector of activity at 55%."
http://www.nacln.org/FILES-HTML/Quebec%20Notary%20information.htm

Notaries are very versed in the research of title at the deeds offices
(and now on-line in the Quebec Db), i.e., they are intimate with the
records of property sale values historic and current in their regions
(similar to an auctioneer's familiarity with auction sales records in
theirs). I don't know that any will share such information, only that
it may be worth asking:

Quebec Chamber of Notaries:
Chambre des notaires du Québec (CDNQ)
(514) 879-1793 ou 1-800-668-2473
You can type in the Magog and Ayer's Cliff postal codes to return a
list of notaries listed in the CDNQ directory.
http://www.cdnq.org/indexcdnq.asp

>>>>>>>>>>

The deeds registry office is where the notary verifies the legal state
of the property of the sale, identifies its ownership, and registers
the transfer. The records held at the registry offices are available
to the public, for fee, either in person or on-line. Records are
retrieved by the specific lot number(s).

Registre foncier du Québec:
http://www.mrn.gouv.qc.ca/foncier/registre/

"Depuis le milieu du XIXe siècle, l?État consigne toutes les
transactions immobilières
réalisées sur le territoire québécois dans les différents registres
qui composent le
Registre foncier du Québec.
Selon le système de la publicité foncière, toute transaction
immobilière devient publique
par son inscription dans le Registre foncier du Québec. Ainsi, comme
il s'agit d'un registre public, tout citoyen peut y avoir accès et
retracer l?historique des transactions faites sur un lot depuis sa
création.
Une grande partie de l?information foncière offerte présentement dans
les bureaux de la
publicité des droits est disponible dans le site du 'Registre foncier
du Québec en ligne'":
http://www.registrefoncier.gouv.qc.ca/Sirf/

...from the directory menu of registry offices:
(the Ayers Cliff records are held at the Stanstead office; the
Sherbrooke office is a regional centre that may be able to offer
additional information or other resources; Coaticook is near Ayers
Cliff but in a different MRC)

Bureau de la publicité des droits - 
 - de Stanstead
674, rue Dufferin 
Stanstead (Québec) J0B 3E0 
Téléphone : (819) 876-2744 
   
 - de Sherbrooke
3425, rue King Ouest, bureau 120
Sherbrooke (Québec) J1L 1P8
Téléphone : (819) 820-3287 

 - de Coaticook
150, rue Child, bureau 4 
Coaticook (Québec) J1A 2B3 
Téléphone : (819) 849-6357 

>>>>>>>>>>

?InfoLot:
Le cadastre en ligne! Pour visualiser sur le plan du cadastre du
Québec les territoires où la réforme du cadastre est complétée.
[db closed for the night]
http://infolot.mrnfp.gouv.qc.ca/Maj.htm

---

Clarification of Answer by hummer-ga on 05 Jun 2004 12:16 PDT

Hi again deborahx,

Ok, we went back for another look at Infolot, which was closed when we
first visited the website. It may be helpful for you, especially for
identifying lots to take to an evaluator and/or building inspector.
Looks like there is alot available on the website, but there is a fee
so we haven't been able to explore too deeply.

Infolot: -> *click on question mark at top of page*:
"Deux services sont présentement offerts. Le premier permet de
consulter les données cadastrales officielles à jour, que ce soit les
attributs descriptifs d'un lot ou son image (abonnement requis). Le
deuxième service permet de visualiser l'étendue du territoire rénové
en vertu du Programme de réforme du cadastre québécois."
http://infolot.mrnfp.gouv.qc.ca/

We also checked the Theses Canada Portal with the keywords:
"ayers" + "cliff" = 0
"land" + "values" = 7 (but generic or other locations)

But perhaps you could come up with something... 
Theses Canada Portal:
http://www.collectionscanada.ca/thesescanada/index-e.html

Regards, hummer

Hi deborahx,

As an introduction to the research results that follow, please keep in
mind that a researcher has no way of knowing what a questioner already
knows or does not know - they rely on the questioner to supply
relevant information. As stated in a previous clarification, specific
answers to your comprehensive questions were not found (answers may be
somewhere, but not here). Please note that this alternate line of
research is not posted as an answer. It now seems that you are already
aware of some (or all) of the findings. I would not have pursued such
a line had I known earlier, but there is nothing to be gained by not
posting it now regardless -- the work is already done and perhaps
something in it will help, perhaps not. If it does, please inform me
and I will post it as an answer.

Regards,
hummer 

>>>>>>>>>>

Ayers Cliff is part of the Memphremagog MRC (MRC = municipalité
régionale de comté / municipal regional council). Among other things,
the MRCs manage the property evaluations that the municipalities use
for their tax rolls.

MRC de Memphrémagog:
455, rue MacDonald
Magog (Québec) J1X 1M2
Téléphone : 819-843-9292
http://www.mrcmemphremagog.com/index.html

"Liste des municipalités": 
Ayer's Cliff: Téléphone : (819) 838-5006
Hatley: Téléphone : (819) 838-5877
Ste-Catherine-de-Hatley: Téléphone : (819) 843-1935
http://www.mrcmemphremagog.com/munic.html

>>>>>>>>>>

A map of the Memphremagog MRC showing municipal jurisdictions:
(it's a 'javascript viewer' .pdf - suggestion: once you orient
yourself, view the map at 200% or more and use the "hand tool"):
http://www.mrcmemphremagog.com/cartes.html

Note that most of the western side of Lake Massawippi is in the
municipality of Sainte-Catherine-de-Hatley, much of the eastern shore
in Hatley, and that Ayers Cliff is a much smaller part of the
waterfront.
I do not have a URL for a map of Ayer's Cliff sufficient to identify
land use zones or town building lots. The Town Office replied by phone
that the Town Building Inspector has such a map but was not in the
office today - you can make an appointment with him by  phone (819 838
5006). Identifying specific lot numbers as examples of the various
types of properties you ask about (let's say three of each?) will be
necessary (and should be sufficient) for research of the historical
deeds records (see: "Registre foncier du Québec").

>>>>>>>>>>

Bulletin d?Orford Hiver 2004 - "Le nouveau rôle d?évaluation"
"...MRC située au 455, rue McDonald à Magog."
"...l?évaluateur, monsieur Jean-Pierre Cadrin, au (819) 843-3635."
http://www.canton.orford.qc.ca/documents/Hiver2004.pdf

>>>>>>>>>>

Municipal evaluations are performed by the MRC. Evaluators most likely
use formulas into which they enter information for each specific
property (land value variables such as you are interested in). If they
do that for real properties, could they do the same for theoretical
properties you might present to them? ...or offer anonymous real
property examples corresponding to your paramaters? Here is the
directory of the Quebec Order of Certified Evaluators and three from
the Memphremagog MRC (one of them the MRC's municipal evaluator):

Ordre des évaluateurs agréés du Québec (OEAQ):
http://www.oeaq.qc.ca/accueil.htm
Liste de membres:
http://www.oeaq.qc.ca/main_liste_ea_prive.htm

Répertoire des membres:
...Ville > Magog:
http://www.oeaq.qc.ca/frame_set.htm

*** Liens utiles *** Links:
RECHERCHES DE TRANSACTIONS
Pour obtenir de l'information détaillée sur les transactions immobilières 
RECHERCHES DE DONNÉES
Informations diverses sur les immeubles à vendre
MANUELS DE COÛT
Coût de remplacement
http://www.oeaq.qc.ca/48_liens.htm

>>>>>>>>>>

In Quebec, the 'notaire' is the legal agent for the registration and
transfer of 'immobilier'. The following website offers a history and
explanation of the notarial system in Quebec:

Notaries in Quebec:
"In Quebec, the notary acts in all areas of the law except litigation.
The conveyancing of immovable property ("real estate" in common law)
constitutes the major sector of activity at 55%."
http://www.nacln.org/FILES-HTML/Quebec%20Notary%20information.htm

Notaries are very versed in the research of title at the deeds offices
(and now on-line in the Quebec Db), i.e., they are intimate with the
records of property sale values historic and current in their regions
(similar to an auctioneer's familiarity with auction sales records in
theirs). I don't know that any will share such information, only that
it may be worth asking:

Quebec Chamber of Notaries:
Chambre des notaires du Québec (CDNQ)
(514) 879-1793 ou 1-800-668-2473
You can type in the Magog and Ayer's Cliff postal codes to return a
list of notaries listed in the CDNQ directory.
http://www.cdnq.org/indexcdnq.asp

>>>>>>>>>>

The deeds registry office is where the notary verifies the legal state
of the property of the sale, identifies its ownership, and registers
the transfer. The records held at the registry offices are available
to the public, for fee, either in person or on-line. Records are
retrieved by the specific lot number(s).

Registre foncier du Québec:
http://www.mrn.gouv.qc.ca/foncier/registre/

"Depuis le milieu du XIXe siècle, l?État consigne toutes les
transactions immobilières
réalisées sur le territoire québécois dans les différents registres
qui composent le
Registre foncier du Québec.
Selon le système de la publicité foncière, toute transaction
immobilière devient publique
par son inscription dans le Registre foncier du Québec. Ainsi, comme
il s'agit d'un registre public, tout citoyen peut y avoir accès et
retracer l?historique des transactions faites sur un lot depuis sa
création.
Une grande partie de l?information foncière offerte présentement dans
les bureaux de la
publicité des droits est disponible dans le site du 'Registre foncier
du Québec en ligne'":
http://www.registrefoncier.gouv.qc.ca/Sirf/

...from the directory menu of registry offices:
(the Ayers Cliff records are held at the Stanstead office; the
Sherbrooke office is a regional centre that may be able to offer
additional information or other resources; Coaticook is near Ayers
Cliff but in a different MRC)

Bureau de la publicité des droits - 
 - de Stanstead
674, rue Dufferin 
Stanstead (Québec) J0B 3E0 
Téléphone : (819) 876-2744 
   
 - de Sherbrooke
3425, rue King Ouest, bureau 120
Sherbrooke (Québec) J1L 1P8
Téléphone : (819) 820-3287 

 - de Coaticook
150, rue Child, bureau 4 
Coaticook (Québec) J1A 2B3 
Téléphone : (819) 849-6357 

>>>>>>>>>>

?InfoLot:
Le cadastre en ligne! Pour visualiser sur le plan du cadastre du
Québec les territoires où la réforme du cadastre est complétée.
[db closed for the night]
http://infolot.mrnfp.gouv.qc.ca/Maj.htm

Hi Hummer,
Thank you so much for your report, which is certainly well done and
quite impressive.  It does indeed contain relevant information
concerning where to go to get my answers, if not the answers
themselves. That I already am aware of these resources does not alter
the fact that I am impressed with the quality and presentation of your
research.  And hoping that you would turn up some great report or
other information that could address my question more directly was a
tall order and a longshot at best. Accordingly, please do feel free to
post this as an answer and collect your payment - you did earn it. 
And I will knuckle down and do the necessary footwork to find the
answers I seek...Meanwhile, I am encouraged to post another question,
much narrower and more specific in scope...