hello child,

you did a most excellent job on my last question, so I hope you'll
take this assignment as well.

please advise of the steps involved in becoming a whirling dervish. 
links are totally fine as long as the text is presented in a fairly
straightforward and in large type.

Lisa, would you please confirm you'll take this question by tomorrow
evening?  if another researcher claims this question, I'd appreciate
it if this was your area of expertise or at least a nodding
acquaintance with the topic.

thanks for gracious kindness,
grannybing

---

Clarification of Question by badabing-ga on 08 Jul 2002 19:10 PDT

don't it though.  and please add *manner* after *straightforward.* 
I've seen some websites on this topic that give me vertigo just
reading about it.  arrgghhh.

less than dignified but anxious to whirl (p.s. I'm fixed for a
scopolamine patch)
GB

I'm so sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. I've been indisposed for
a while, but I'm back for now.

First, I'd ask you to set your browser to display the text in large
type. If your browser has a View menu,look there for a Text Size
option, and select the largest text available. (You can also create a
personal Cascading Style Sheet to do this if you'd like.)

Now, for your whirling dervishes.

I am assuming you're located in the US, so specific links to classes
and centers are all US-based. Let me know if you're somewhere else,
and I'll see what I can find in your location.

From this site:
http://www.dankphotos.com/whirling/index.shtml

"The Whirling Dervishes trace their origin to the 13th century Ottoman
Empire. The Dervishes, also known as the Mevlevi Order, are Sufis, a
spiritual offshoot of Islam. In 1972, Jelaluddin Loras, Sheikh of the
Mevlevi Order of America, brought the religion from Turkey to the
United States. On December 17, Whirling Dervishes across the world
celebrate the birth of Jelaluddin Mevlana Rumi, a mystic poet, who
founded the Mevlevi Order. I am the first photographer allowed to
document this group."

As implied in the quote, there are several very nice pictures of
whirling dervishes on this site.

A search on "Jelaluddin Mevlana Rumi" reveals this site:

http://www.emav.org/
The Foundation of Universal Lovers of Mevlana Jelaluddin Rumi

Searching on "Mevlevi" results in links to the Threshold Society, at
http://www.sufism.org

Here is a fine introduction to the Mevlevi Order:

http://www.sufism.org/society/mevlev.html

And here you'll find a very brief history of the order:

http://www.mevlana.net/celebi.htm

Also, a search on "Rumi" at Amazon.com reveals a number of books of
his poetry, which may interest you. Sorry I couldn't provide a more
concise link, but the language difference results in multiple English
spellings of the name, so to get a complete list, you have to sort
through the variants:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/102-6114935-3524930

And this page provides not only an overview, but several examples of
Mevlana Jelaluddin Rumi's poetry:

http://www.worldtrek.org/odyssey/mideast/030800/030800kavidervish.html

Here is the sufism.org page about upcoming training and seminars
available in North America:

http://www.sufism.org/society/seminars.html

There's currently a class scheduled for next month, August 11 - 16,
called "Polishing the Heart, Purifying Consciousness: An Exploration
of Sufi Practice." The page says that the prices are $570 for double
and $690 for single, but you can email Rahima McCullough at
Rahima326@cs.com to make sure they didn't get that backwards. If it is
cheaper for two, you could invite a friend. Oh, and they do offer a
10% discount for seniors.

The Mevlevi Order of America offers further resources from their main
website at:

http://www.hayatidede.org/

including links to several centers in Oregon, California, and
Washington state at:

http://www.hayatidede.org/contacts.html

There's also a mailing address on this page where you can write for
further information.

The links on this page will direct you to information on available
instruction in each area.

This British site offers Middle Eastern dancewear:
http://www.whirlingdervishdancewear.co.uk/

but I expect that an appropriate robe would be far simpler and cheaper
to make yourself than to buy.

And lest we lose sight of the purpose amid all the sights, sounds, and
flowing robes, see this page:

http://www.hayatidede.org/events_specific/asianartmuseum.html

which explains "Despite all the preparations (sound checks, etc.)
...this is not a performance, it is a prayer."

And as always, GrannyBing, if you need further information on any of
these topics, feel free to ask, and I'll do whatever I can to answer.

Thanks,
Lisa.

---

Request for Answer Clarification by badabing-ga on 14 Jul 2002 09:53 PDT

hello Lisa,

first, glad to see you back in the research saddle, child.  and I so
totally relate to the isle of indisposed.  often I live in that zip
code.

okay, next, as you've probably guessed, this is another grannybing
experiment to see what works better -- concrete specifics or a 'why
don't you surprise me' style of answer.  giving a researcher a general
question without making an exacting and somewhat annoying-sounding
list of what you want/don't want remains a somewhat 'iffy' proposition
for me.  as a rule, I'm a bit on the fence about 'surprises' anyway.

had I been more crystal clear about the way I wanted this research
skewed, I probably would have missed out on those truly remarkable
photos by Daniel Kramer in that first link of yours.  what a find! 
please, PLEASE, tell me your search criteria, darlin'.

also I may have not found that Threshold Society information, which
all but confirmed my suspicion that I must become a left coaster if
I'm to fully participate in these practices.  I especially loved these
monthly themes for the whole year: 
http://www.sufism.org/society/articles/12Practices.htm

without a doubt I would have missed that trippy British dancewear site
to see those deliciously entertaining costumes.  ha, magnifique! 
however, until I can pack my bags for Eugene, Oregon I must be
satisfied to spin in the living room in my wholly bathrobe.

the seminar "Polishing Your Heart" sounds absolutely divine, but even
with the senior citizens discount, my lotto number/longshot in the
Hollywood Cup would have to come in for me to afford it.  looks like
granny will have to settle for some Minwax and an enteric-coated
aspirin for her cardioprotection.

now for the downside of not being specific:  you gave me several sites
here on the history of the Mevlevi sect and Rumi poetry for which I've
already read quite a bit on my own.  but, how would you know unless I
told you in my initial posting, hmmmm?

*******however, what I would *prefer* are several sites very similar
to this dancespirit site
{http://www.dancespirit.com/backissues/sep01/worldstage.shtml}.  I
need more sites addressing the "how-to-ness" of spinning or the
technique and practice of same.  that URL is one of the few places
I've seen that explains the process quite clearly, so I'm looking for
several more like that, if you'd be so kind.  I found that one
entering "dervish+whirling+instruction+sufi" on Google, if that's
helpful.  even if some of the information looks fairly repetitious,
I'd still be interested in it.*********

thank you so much for the browser tip, BTW.  what I don't know about
computers could fill the Astrodome, but that knowledge isn't really
high up on my agenda.  however, that viewing info will come in handy
with those PDF documents of which I'm so richly fond.  that was a very
nice personal touch and one of the reasons I asked for you
specifically, although many other researchers have a talent in this
area as well.

lastly, I'd like to know if you have any comments on specifics v. the
broad/interpretative nature of questions.  any other researchers
comments would also be welcome.  from your response here, I'm now
somewhat inclined to ask a generic type question so the researcher can
inject his/her personality and then ask for clarification.   I realize
this involves somewhat of a two-step process for the researcher, but
sometimes your customer doesn't know that they're looking for
something until *you* bring it to them.

**********I'm wondering about how a fee for interpretive findings and
then a fee for clarifications might work at Google Answers.  Lord
knows you researchers aren't mind readers.  still, I'm on the fence
about a 'surprise' answer.   should the onus be on the querant or the
researcher as far as posting specific requirements for their *perfect*
answer?

what I'd like to do is add a small reward for a clarification to this
original question and for you and other researchers to add your
thoughts about this topic.  I believe I have switched gears here and
morphed off my original question but this is an experiment of sorts. 
maybe you're done with the dervish question and someone else would
like a crack.  let's just see how this works, shall we?************

the ever beta curious,
grannybing

---

Clarification of Answer by lisarea-ga on 15 Jul 2002 09:55 PDT

Grannybing, your questions are so fun!

In my search, I've reached the conclusion that there is probably
relatively little in the way of detailed instruction available in
printed or video form, at least to the general public. Because of the
spiritual nature of the whirling dervish dances, I believe it's
expected that dervishes join an order and learn to dance in that
context. As a matter of fact, the link you provided is the most
detailed dance instruction I've seen online so far.

However, I was able to locate some information on classes you could
take, as well as dribs and drabs of other information that may be of
use.

A search on "+instruction +mevlevi +dance" results in this general
oriented site, with links to audio tapes of Sufi music, chants, and
poetry, as well as numerous other instructional material along a
fairly broad range. Note that these are not actual dance instruction,
but background material and whirling music:

http://omegapub.com/otapes01.html

A broader search on "dance sufi" reveals this step-by-step pictorial
description of the sema dance:

http://www.sufism.org/society/sema/index.html

And this link to the Sufi Foundation, which offers instruction in "a
wide variety of Sufi techniques including exercise, movement,
drumming, dancing,
meditation, chanting, and whirling," according to the website. The
summer workshop is being held in New Mexico (this started on July 1,
so it may be too late for that), and classes are available in other
locations on an ongoing basis:

http://www.sufifoundation.org/

Here are classes in Ft. Lauderdale, FL, for $9 a session:

http://www.sufifoundation.org/sufi_movement.htm

After the summer workshop, the Sufi Foundation will hold further
classes in Albuquerque, NM, which you can keep an eye out for at:

http://www.sufifoundation.org/albuquerque.htm

And San Francisco, CA courses are taught on Sunday evenings, although
they're actually in Berkeley. You can email the address on this page
for more information:

http://www.sufifoundation.org/sanfrancisco.htm

Here is a state-by-state listing of sufi dances and other events:

http://home.swbell.net/vajra108/#Dances of Universal Peace meetings in
Texas &

Here is a poster you can print out to refer to:

http://www.meru.org/Sufi/rnddance.html

The purpose of this seems to be to relate whirling dervish dancing to
Herbrew traditions, and it's a little over my head at a cursory look,
but you can decide if it's useful to you. It does look interesting,
but I think you'd need to have at least a little background in
meru.org's approach to be able to really figure out what this means.

Here is a link to a mailing list for Southern California Sufi Dancers.
It's not a particularly active list at approximately 1 announcement a
week (it's not participatory, so it consists only of announcements
from the list owner), but you may be able to locate a dance you can
attend, or perhaps you could email the list moderator. I don't want to
post his email address online because I don't want to subject him to
extra spam, but you can view the previous announcements at
http://www.topica.com/lists/SufiDancers/read?sort=d&start=49, and his
email address appears about ten messages down on the list.


If you're in the New York area, this site offers information on
classes there:

http://www.bellydanceny.com/sufi.html

And within this material, it becomes clear that an organization called
"Dances of Universal Peace" offers instruction and events in dances
including the whirling dervish ritual. A search on "Dances of
Universal Peace" provides their main webpage at:

http://www.dancesofuniversalpeace.org/

They offer booklets and audio tapes here:

http://www.dancesofuniversalpeace.org/na/pwpubs/duptapes.html

Their newer offerings are online here:

http://www.dancesofuniversalpeace.org/na/pwpubs/new_pubs.html

And you can use this online map to locate a contact near you to find
out more:

http://www.dancesofuniversalpeace.org/na/dances/index.html

Note that the Dances of Universal Peace appears to incorporate aspects
of many world religions, and as such, is probably not a good source
for traditional information on whirling dervishes, but may be a good
starting point for learning about the dances and traditions, if
nothing more specific is available in your area.

As for your other questions:

I found the links to the photo site using an embarassingly simple
search criteria of "whirling dervish." I find that I get some of my
best information just using very simple search terms at first,
sometimes doing it several times over, hoping to hit different servers
and get different results, and then paging through the results. Once
I've found appropriate material, I'm able to add search terms from the
material itself to further narrow down what I'm looking for, but
sometimes the surprises are more interesting than what I was looking
for in the first place.

As far as the broad questions question goes, that depends.
Occasionally, I think you can tell from the nature of the question and
the approach of the asker that someone is interested in a general area
of information, and in those cases, I think it can be enjoyable to
answer the question the way you think they mean it, and then offer to
find more detailed information if you've failed to hit the mark.
However, sometimes a tersely worded question belies a busy person who
has simply neglected to provide the necessary information to answer
it. In those cases, I wouldn't touch the answer with a ten-foot pole
until I understood the question and was sure I was able to provide the
information the questioner is looking for.

In this case, I took the answer because it had my name in it, but I
may have taken a chance on it, anyway, because of the manner in which
it was asked, and because I don't mind going back to do
clarifications. I guess, in a nutshell, it's a matter of gut feel and
individual researcher preferences. You win some, you lose some. I
don't suspect GA would have much luck trying to eliminate a universal
truth like that.

Thanks again, GrannyBing, and as always, let me know if you'd like me
to have another go at it.

Lisa.

A+ research on a really, really difficult subject.  I'm thinking this
information is hard to find for a reason but I'm okay with that.  Lisa
always surprises me with her efforts.  The links she finds are like
opening gifts on Christmas morning. a very thoughtful and caring
child.  I will always ask for her because I think we make a good team.
 thanks, Lisa, for giving this one a whirl.  I owe you a hat.

Grannybing,

I'm just going to chime in and say how sweet it is that you've called
one of our team "Mistress Researcher".  It makes us sound dignified. 
;)

I'm chiming in along wih Missy-ga: you bestow such an honor by
referring to a researcher in such a wonderful manner.  And I love you
11:11 reference in pricing - an enlightening number.  : )

hello journalist, 

as a senior citizen, I like to follow along with the questions and
answers here just to keep my mind active.  however, I've been somewhat
appalled by the lack of manners in people's questions, clarification,
and general all-around hoop-jumping you researchers endure.  I've been
in somewhat ill health lately so I don't get out much anymore, but I'm
saddened by the overall lack of respect for one's fellow man.  just
because one's paying for this service doesn't exclude you from using
the manners that your mama taught you.  I admire the restraint put
forth by you researchers in handling some of these whippersnappers. 
personally, I'd take 'em out to the woodshed.

anyway, I so low-balled Mistress Mona Lisa on my last question, I
wanted to offer her first dibs on this one if this topic held any
interest for her.  we had such a fun tete-a-tete in our last go-round
but I'm sure any one of you fine folks could field this question
admirably.  Lisa puts a lot of her personality in her answers which
might not suit every customer but it works for me.  I'm sure you've
been instructed to be all business-like and such.

besides this tack of asking for a specific researcher also allowed
someone a little extra time with the question, which is not an easy
one to answer quickly, nor do I require a speedy reply.  and I hope no
one feels slighted by it, as that was not my intent.  I've also
requested that the researcher have an interest in this area as their
excitement seems to come across in a person's reply.  that just seems
tantamount for this service to function properly.

well, you kids have fun out there on that answer playground and as
they say in my neck of the woods, "illigitimi non carbarundum."  I'll
see ya again next month when I get my social security check.

stay in the shade,
grannybing

p.s. anyone know if ML is on a high siesta somewhere?  I look forward
to your answer and comments.

Hello Grannybing,

Just a quick comment for you!  In answer to your query about Lisarea
being on "high siesta" - it appears her last post on Google Answers
was on Friday, June 28, 2002.

Have a wonderful day!  :)

tlspiegel-ga

thank you kindly for that info, hon.  I wasn't sure if you had one of
those big "the doctor is in" boards or what.  she could be out buying
socks for me to wash for all I know.  whattya say we give her four
more hours then ya'll have at it if you're so inclined.

you have a wonderful day, too, sugar.  love your catalogue.  can you
me get a discount, hmmm?

time for my medication...
GB (out)

Hi again,

You said: "love your catalogue.  can you
me get a discount, hmmm?"

I say:  No relation and no discounts... dad was a dr.  lol  :)

I'm going to post: Lisarea where are you?... grannybing aka
badabing-ga is a lookin' for ya' in our Reaseacher Forum.  It appears
she was last seen posting there on July 2nd if I remember correctly. 
Stay tuned.

Trying to find Lisarea for you,

tlspiegel-ga  (no relation to Spiegel Cataglogue)

thanks so much for doing that APB on ML, ma'am, that was very kind of
you.  I'm amazed how you folks will bend over backwards when a
questioner shows ya'll some respect and kindness.  you're much
appreciated, kids!

well, it looks like our Lisa took a long 4th of July holiday.  hope
she didn't meet with a nasty sparkler accident.

and if anyone needs any clarification on my question, I'm looking into
this [http://www.dancespirit.com/backissues/sep01/worldstage.shtml],
not turning into this [http://www.manntaylor.com/dervish.html]  just
wanted to be clear on that.

cheers,
GB

oh, you're too kind to me, child!  listen, granny b's been workin' her
wrinkled behind to a veritible nubbin but she's looking forward to
reading all this new jambalaya of information you and missy have given
her...hopefully it'll be this evening. can't wait!  and I forgot to
tell you granny lives in the midwest, land of the whirling
tumbleweeds.  granny gotta move!

back later...
GB(usy)