Would you know what the law is regarding P&P, as in, if you pay a
seller on ebay money for Post and Packaging, does the packaging have
to be brand new? As in, you pay them, they actually go buy it? Or are
they allowed to charge you for packaging, but not buy it and used
packing/materials already used many times? Is this legal? Sure they
have to buy the materials if you pay them to do so? Because if they
have taken your money but don't buy it, surely this is fraudulent? 
And do they also have a legal duty to ensure the item is properly and
securely packaged to avoid damage, having charged you high fees? Do
you also know if it is legally the sender's responsibility to ensure
the goods reach the sendee? Thank you. Marion.

In my opinion, packages does not have to be new.

Indeed, from an ecological viewpoint, it's better to re-use old packaging.

A Seller cannot guarantee delivery, he/she can only prove despatch. If
this is insured great, if not it's tough on the buyer.

I always imagined that part of the payment for P & P was the time
taken to wrap the thing and take it to the post office.  I've no basis
for that though.

Right, are your comemnts from a legal point of view or a personal
point of view? Surely, if you take money from a customer for
packaging, then use something someone else has paid for, which has
been previously sent to the seller, in sending the customer their
goods, this would be bad ethics or unlawful? You have taken money to
purchase packaging, whatever that may be, in order to send goods, I
would have thought having taken money specifically for this, you
should then buy the packaging. Otherwise if you are taking money for
packaging and then not actually buying it, but using packaging sent to
you from someone else, this is takiing money for a serice then not
rendering it. Surely, if you are using packaging sent personally to
you for goods you have ordered or bought, you should not be charging
money for packaging you have not bought. I have sent a letter to
Trading Standards about this.

Hi, Marion

Before anyone can express an opinion on the legality of any issue, the
first requirement is to discover to which country you are referring.

Laws vary considerably from country to country, even in the UK
(Scotland is different from England & Wales) and also in the U.S.,
where laws can vary from State to State.

Give us a clue!

When you pay for packaging / shipping / handling, you are paying for 3
things - packaging material, the time and effort to pack and ship the
item, and the cost of postage. Most of the charge is not even for the
actual packaging which is a relatively minor aspect of the cost. 
However, you are paying for packaging that will get the product to you
without breakage or spoilage. That is it.  You are not paying for "new
and unused" packaging unless this is specifically part of the product
you are buying.

Many commercial firms use old newspapers as part of the packing
material. If ethics or laws required that all material used in
packaging had to be newly purchased, would they have to buy brand-new
newspapers for this purpose?

To me, a charge for "packaging" is similar to a charge for "handling"
(as in "shipping & handling"). I am paying for the effort, not just
for the materials used by the sender. If my item arrives undamaged,
why should I care whether or not the materials were new?

I'm in the UK.

Kent to be exact.

Hi, Marion

I live in Hove, so we are near neighbours ... 

My take on this is that packaging does not have to be brand new. The
only requirement is that it should be adequate for ensuring that the
goods reach you in the condition that you had reason to expect.

By convention, P&P includes 'packing' which means providing the
materials and taking the stuff to the Post Office and getting a
Certificate of Posting if relevant, etc.

In my experience, most ebay sellers are quite reasonable with the
amounts that they charge but, in any event, most list the P&P charges
on their ebay listing. If not, there is always the opportunity to sort
these out before you bid.

In my view, it is not fraudulent to re-use old packing materials.
Indeed, as Pinkfreud has observed, old newspapers are often used.

The seller DOES have a duty to ensure that the goods are properly
wrapped so that they reach you in the condition that you have been led
to expect but whether or not the packing is new or recycled is
irrelevant.

No Seller can ever take responsibility for the goods reaching the
buyer unless a Courier Service is specified which, of course, costs
plenty.

However, a Seller can (if pre-requested) provide you with a
Certificate of Posting which shows that they have done their bit.

What happens next is in the hands of the Gods because LOTS of stuff
does get lost in the post.

The way round this is to request insurance ... Recorded or Special
Delivery ... but this also costs but not too much.

Please forget 'the legalities' because 'taking the seller to court' is
not a sensible option. It takes time and money and the chances are
that you will wish you hadn't bothered. Your seller could be a million
miles away and, under English Law, a defendant can ask for the case to
be heard in HIS/HER local court.

If you are aggrieved in any way, you should address your complaint to
ebay. I doubt if the Trading Standards people will do you any good. I
know of one local case where the TS person advised a woman with a
legitimate complaint to sue. She did and lost.

I'm sorry that you have had a bad experience but, perhaps, I've been
lucky because I found that most folk on ebay are a pleasure to do
business with.

Hope that this helps.

Bryan

Hi Marion,

Well, it sounds as though you've had a bit of a rough time. The
internet is great and is generally a safe place to shop, but buyers
must be beware and do their homework. "Shipping & Handling" fees are
not regulated and it is up to sellers to set their own policies - it
is the responsibility of the buyer to "read the small print" and make
informed decisions before it is too late.

Following are notes I made from a U.S point-of-view before I realized
you are in the U.K. Many of the same principles can be applied to the
U.K. but I haven't looked for British laws and regulations in regards
to mail order.

>>>>>>

Avoid Excessive Shipping Costs:
First and Foremost:
"Before you even get to the stage of having to haggle over inflated
shipping charges, be sure you know what the seller intends to charge
before winning the auction. If you are really serious about bidding
and the seller doesn't specify the shipping charges, email him or her
beforehand to get an exact weight, rate, and shipping method."
http://www.vendio.com/service/tipsandtactics/buy-avoidshipping.html

>>>>>>

"...does the packaging have to be brand new?"  - No, and new packaging
doesn't ensure a safe delivery.

"And do they also have a legal duty to ensure the item is properly and
securely packaged to avoid damage, having charged you high fees?"

The key to those two questions, is simply that it is the seller's
responsibility to ensure that the buyer receives merchandise as
advertised, in other words, if you order a book that was described as
"New", it shouldn't arrive all bumped and bent out of shape. If it
does, you may return it for a "full" refund - therefore, it is in the
best interest of the seller to wrap securely to avoid unnecessary
expenses.

>>>>>>

"Do you also know if it is legally the sender's responsibility to
ensure the goods reach the sendee?" - Yes, it is the seller's
responsibility. If you order an item from a large company and it
doesn't arrive, would you not expect them to refund your money? It is
no different ordering from a small business, it is always the
responsibility of the vendor to make sure the goods arrive safely -
you should never have to pay extra for that assurance.

"If the package has indeed been sent and didn't show up, then it may
well be lost. The resolution of this should be simple: the vendor
should replace it, promptly. They are responsible for getting the item
to you; it is not your fault if the item never shows up. If they want
to take the matter up with the delivery company, let them, but not at
your expense."
"Note: A game that some smaller vendors play is to try to charge extra
for "insurance" on products they send out. You'll sometimes see them
try to scare their customers by saying that if the customer doesn't
shell out several extra dollars for "insurance", the customer will be
responsible if the item is lost. What a load of bull! If you get the
money to them, they are responsible for getting the product to you. If
they feel the need to take out insurance on their packages, let them
pay for it, or better yet, find a more reliable method of delivery. In
fact, most companies don't take out insurance on packages because lost
items are so uncommon."
http://www.pcguide.com/buy/pur/prob/com.htm

>>>>>>

The Mail-Order Merchandise Rule:
"The mail-order rule adopted by the Federal Trade Commission in
October 1975 provides that when you order by mail:
* You must receive the merchandise when the seller says you will.
* If you are not promised delivery within a certain time period, the
seller must ship the merchandise to you no later than 30 days after
your order comes in.
* If you don't receive it shortly after that 30-day period, you can
cancel your order and get your money back."
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0110456.html

A Business Guide to the Federal Trade Commission?s
MAIL OR TELEPHONE ORDER MERCHANDISE RULE
How Much You Must Refund:
"If you cannot ship any of the merchandise ordered by the customer,
you must refund the entire amount the customer "tendered," including
any shipping, handling, insurance, or other costs. If you ship some,
but not all, of the merchandise ordered, you must refund the
difference between the total amount paid and the amount the customer
would have paid, according to your ordering instructions, for the
shipped items only."
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/mailorder.htm

>>>>>>

Shipping and handling: The big surprise on your e-commerce shopping bill:
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayNew.pl?/foster/991108ef.htm
 
I hope this helps a bit,
hummer

Hi, Hummer

YES I am sure that those ARE the rules in the US, but they are less
well defined in England.

Certainly in England any Vendor who can produce a Certificate of
Posting will be deemed to have done the necessary.

If things get lost in transit then it's tough unless some insurance
has been taken out.

All the Best

Bryan

Hi Bryan,

Yes, it is tough if things get lost in transit, but it really is the
responsibility of the vendor to buy the insurance or not. I'm not
coming at this from a buyer's point-of-view but rather from a seller,
and yes, I have refunded (price + postage) something I shipped to
Australia (no insurance) so I know how it hurts. So, to avoid the
pain, the seller can buy some insurance if he wants to.

Perhaps we will have to agree to disagree? 8-)
hummer