fact of cosciouness. What is this?

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Clarification of Question by apdp-ga on 12 Aug 2004 11:33 PDT

The purpose of the question is to clear the meaning of "fact of
consciousness", specially relating the term to its philosophycal
perspective.

The point that I think is very important in the analysis of that
expression is its own negation, as possibility, in some philosopher's
papers, so that it is what I am anxiously looking for, in order to
remember what sometime I had studied or to know more about that issue.

Thanks.

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Clarification of Question by apdp-ga on 12 Aug 2004 19:19 PDT

"fact of consciousness" and not what appears above.

Thanks.

I'm guessing that it means that because we are conscious of our
environment (i.e., we know that we exist and can examine and interpret
our surroundings), we automatically know or assume facts. For example,
just by looking around we assume that there is space, so space could
be a fact of consciousness, but what is it really? Is it nothing, is
it something that only exists when matter is around, or is it even
"something" that exists in the universe, but outside the universe it
doesn't exist. Is it created just by our perception of it? I'm
guessing that's what you're referring to.

You're dead on, purkinje.

Fact of counciousness deals with the idea that (as humans), we are
conscious of the fact that we exist, and have an understanding of
"self".  Most other creatures are not believed to possess this
ability.  It's the "I think, therefore I am" idea.  In fact, if you
hold up a mirror in front of most animals, they will attack the
mirror.  Humans, however, are unique in that even most young children
(typically 3 years old and above), who have a very limited
understanding of the world around them, realize they are looking at an
image of themselves, not another person.

Dolphins are the only other creature who pass the "mirror test".

Furthermore, and more importantly, we are aware of the fact that we
are aware that we exist.

In other words, we have 2nd level thoughts, which is what separates
humans even more from other creatures on Earth.

For instance, you're at work and you think to yourself...Gee, I could
go for a soda.  5 minutes later, you think...well, I'd better not. 
Too much soda can't be good for me.  All those empty calories.

What's really happening is that you are having a thought regarding a
thought.  This second level thinking is very complex.

Sorry, I digress.  But anyways, that's what the fact of consciousness
is all about.  There you are...

>Dolphins are the only other creature who pass the "mirror test".

Along with the great apes.

Ian G.

Hi Apdp,

This is an excellent question.

Ian .. can you share more on this? Is it only the dolphins and the
great apes, or are the chimps included with self perception also?

Phil

There are two realms to "fact of consiousness"- internal (phenomenal)
and external (psychological).  To easily explain, humans and animals
are both receptive of there "inner world" (internal fact of
consiousness) and there "external world" (external fact of
consiousness).  This dual receptiveness completes the consiousness of
an individual. To clairify the dualaity of the system, one cannot be
consious only to the external world without having consiousness to the
internal body - this occurred only in the fictatious Frankienstien.
When researching the term "fact of consiousness" some writers,
depending on the depth of subject, will only use the term in regards
to the entire system of consiousness rather than dividing it in two
terms. It, then, is upon the reader to distingish.
I hope this can help you in your studies.

This question will never be answered by philosophers, except perhaps
to the satisfaction of philosophers.

We are all aware of consciousness but it is of course very hard to
define. Nevertheless, we recognise it in humans (to varying degrees)
and also higher mammals. The problem is though, where does one draw
the dividing line as one descends (non pejorative) down the life
spectrum. Dolphins recognisably have it, dogs too. Cats? Well yes. And
I can testify to consciousness of the crows which feed on my lawn --
you can feel *exactly* what is going through their minds. The Scottish
word ?gallus? sums them up.

Extrapolating, mice must therefore have a degree of consciousness,
then insects, then bacteria, rickettsiae, viruses. But viruses are
sometimes viewed as crystal rather than life forms so do we include
crystals as having a smidgen of consciousness? Prions too. Molecules?
A lump of rock?

One simply cannot draw an arbitrary line so there is something wrong
with the question, as there has been since way before Greek times.

I don?t think, therefore I?m not :-)

Best

Phil

Sorry for the slow reply - I've been on holiday.  There's a lot of
stuff on the web about self awareness in bonobos, chimpanzees and
orangutans, though I haven't seen gorillas included.  I found this
article, http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1175/is_6_32/ai_56883557,
which presents an alternate viewpoint.  I can't comment on the
conclusions, but it's obvious that you need to be careful when reading
popular science articles!

Ian G

Hi all,

Ian, thank you for your response and the link. That was an interesting
read. I trust that you enjoyed your holidays.

Again, what an excellent question. Apdp .. how do rate the comments so
far? I bet you never expected this.

I have always liked the simple "mirror" test to measure our perception
of an animal's self-awareness. I know that in using mirrors in a
shearing shed, it does help the stupid sheep move on into a darkened
area. In sharing 98.4% of DNA with Chimps, I guess it's easy to
presume that the 1.6% difference might simply be the lack of spoken
language as we know it, the truncated form of a "monkey" as compared
to a human, and the comparitive protruding ridge above the eyebrows ..
conducive to our understanding of Darwinian Theory of the branches of
evolution.

I know that we won't reach a conclusion here. However, it sure is fun
learning with you people.

Guzzi, I like your approach. It may satisfy philosophers .. "If I
choose not to think .. therefore I choose not to be" ..  Question!! If
the sun is at midday and an animal decides to drink from it's
reflection in still waters, does it see another animal, or
instinctively know of the reflection?

Have fun,

Phil