I already know that the term "Four Pound" refers to the .45 ACP
bullet... how does pound mean 5?

Hello,

Being an avid gun fanatic, I think you'll be surprised to find out
that "four pound" does not refer to the bullet persay, but the actual
gun. It has nothing to do with the caliber of bullet used, instead,
"four pound" is a reference to an industry standard of setting handgun
triggers at a "pull level" of about 4lbs. of force. This is so that if
you accidentally drop your gun, etc. it will not go off by itself.
Many gun manufacturers go above and beyond this "four pound" standard
such as Glock and safety critics say this may not even be enough. A
police armorer and certified gunsmithing instructor (link below) has
part of his code of ethics, "Weight of trigger pull is a subject of
much discussion. Clients will often request very light trigger pulls.
I will not put a trigger pull of less then 4 pounds on a duty/self
defense pistol. With less experienced shooters a 4 1/2 pound pull is
better and as high as 5 pounds is acceptable." The rules (linked
below) for a Marine Corp League National Service Rifle and Pistol
tournament state, "Any type of internal modification is acceptable
except for trigger pull which must meet or exceed the minimum four
pound trigger pull as designated by the U.S. Armed Forces." There was
actually a lawsuit 8 years ago which revolved around trigger pull
force and I quote from an article linked below, "Glock 17s are
available in three different trigger pulls in the United States:
five-pounds, eight-pounds and eight-pounds with even pressure
throughout the trigger's travel." Another website has the Kimber Ultra
CDP (a .45 ACP handgun) with a review which talks specifically about
its "found pound" trigger, "It was still set for just under a four
pound trigger pull and displayed the minimum in over-travel." I've
also included a bunch of lyrics links in which rappers refer to a
"four pound" as an object of destruction, not necessarily the bullet
itself, pointing to its slang connotation as a handgun. But of course,
in the song you were specifically referring to, the artist might have
decided to use "four pound" as the actual bullet, .45 ACP.


Additional Links:

Sear Jig firearm tooling:
http://www.custompistols.com/bengtson/tooling/searjig.htm

Marine Corp League National Service Rifle and Pistol match rules:
http://www.westol.com/~johnsog/mcl/postal.html

Article about Glock's suit about pull strengths:
http://dailybeacon.utk.edu/issues/v66/n7/glock.7n.html

Handguns Magazine review of the .45 ACP Kimber Ultra CDP:
http://www.handgunsmag.com/dynamic.asp?intSectionID=345&intArticleID=1819

Lyrics search for "four pound" (note: explicitly worded webpages are
returned):
://www.google.com/search?q=%22four+pound%22+lyrics


Search Strategy:

"4 pound trigger" on google:
://www.google.com/search?q=%224+pound+trigger%22


Thank you for the opportunity to answer your question, if you require
more information, please clarify the question, or if you find this
answer satisfactory, please feel free to rate it. Thank you!

skermit-ga

---

Request for Answer Clarification by merc2112-ga on 11 Jul 2002 23:49 PDT

I was skeptical when the question was answered so quickly... when I
read the references I knew why.  You did not provide me with one
reference that could not be countered or just didn't make sence.

Thanks for the try, but I am looking for my answer from someone that
knows the lingo, not the guns.

---

Clarification of Answer by skermit-ga on 12 Jul 2002 00:10 PDT

merc2112-ga, this is not off the top of my head. I've researched
countless gun reviews for my own personal hobbies, and have run across
the "four pound" reference many times. It's referred to in ALL four of
the links that I have provided, and my google lyrics link was offered
to show you that the term "four pound" is not a new term and has been
used by rappers as diverse as Ice-T, to Ja Rule, from Busta Rhymes, to
2-pac. Like I said, the specific rapper(s) you have referred to might
have used it in reference to the actual bullets, but all of the other
rappers refer to a "four pound" as a gun, whose etymology comes from
the four pound trigger, not the caliber of bullet.

Cuban Link from Terror Squad (of Fat Joe fame) says this in the song
"Pass the Glock":

"So cock the four pound (four pound)
Lock the fort down (fort down)"

and then not three lines later...

"It's war now so toss the nine cuz I'ma floss and shine"

He refers to the Glock 9mm (for your knowledge this could be the Glock
17, 17L, 18, 19, 26, or 34) as his "four pound" which backs up exactly
what my answer stated originally.

Eric Sermon from the Beastie Boys (yes, "four pound" is that old)
raps:

"I'm the four pound toter"

meaning he's carrying a gun, packing heat, whatever you wish to call
it.

I hope this clarification helps you understand my point of view, if
not I'll be more than happy to answer more clarifications.

skermit-ga

I was skeptical when the question was answered so quickly... when I
read the references I knew why.  You did not provide me with one
reference that could not be countered or just didn't make sence.
 
Thanks for the try, but I am looking for my answer from someone that
knows the lingo, not the guns.

Fascinating stuff! You learn something every day.

My point is, you don't know FOR SURE.

Here are just an example of one of the errors:
Eric Sermon was not with the Beastie Boys... it was EPMD... and the
lyrics are from Cypress Hill.
://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22I%27m+the+four+pound+toter%22+

I have been looking at questions you have answered for people in the
past and see you do the exact same thing to everyone else.  You are a
sham.  If this guy trys to answer your question -- don't take it at
face value... research it.

Enough said.
merc

Dear merc2112:

I was researching your question as well, and I came up with much of
the same resources skermit-ga did. It seemed like from both personal
experience and outside resources, the question was addressed. Can I
help you further? What type of resource would you accept as a "for
sure" answer?

Best Regards,
blader-ga

Blader,

Thanks for taking the time to research the question.  I researched the
question myself and found that there is really no CLEAR answer that I
could find... that is why I require somebody that KNOWS FOR SURE what
the term "four pound" means.  If by chance it is not referring to a
.45 cal handgun... then I want to know what (if anything) makes a
handgun a "four pound".

The only resource that I would accept as a for sure answer is a quote
by someone in hip hop explaining what four pound means.

Also I forgot to mention, I researched the trigger pull point that
skermit was trying to make.  I found that there are only 31 guns (out
of ~8700 in the database) that come with a 4 pound trigger pull
(single action).  Most handguns have a trigger pull of 5 pounds and
above... so I guess I would say that this quote by skermit is false:

"It has nothing to do with the caliber of bullet used, instead,
"four pound" is a reference to an industry standard of setting handgun
triggers at a "pull level" of about 4lbs. of force."

It's the weight of the gun. See Street Dreams by Nas:
"I'm seven inches, 4 pounds, etc"
http://www.ohhla.com/anonymous/nas/written/power.nas.txt
Then he mentions the Desert Eagle which weights 67 ounces (~= 4*16)
http://www.mcw.edu/fic/eagle_body.html
I seriously doubt rappers think about trigger pull weights, FWIW
(excluding the "hair trigger" modification).

To add to my first comment...
The word was coined due to a certain gun -- Desert Eagle -- weighing
four pounds.
But now, the word refers to any gun. rapdict.org is wrong if that's
how you "know" four pound=.45. Jay-Z even shortens it to "fours" to
refer to any guns; see Ride or Die.
http://www.ohhla.com/anonymous/jayzee/vol2hard/ride_die.jyz.txt

This is an interesting question and an interesting debate.  Everyone
here has brought up valid points on the subject.

skermit-ga answered the question, however, I do not believe that he
really answered the question that merc2112-ga was asking.  skermit-ga
obviously showed us that he has some knowledge about firearms with his
elaboration on four-pound trigger pulls.  In skermit-ga's answer
clarification he did make some mistakes, some of which merc2112-ga
pointed out.  My only concern is that skermit-ga may be trying to
answer a question that is outside of his expertise.

I want to clear something up about the Eric Sermon thing.  Eric Sermon
DID rap that line about being the "four pound toter", but he DID NOT
do it with the Beastie Boys.  Also, it wasn't Cypress Hill's lyrics. 
Rather, it was Eric Sermon's lyrics on a Cypress Hill song
(http://www.lyricscafe.com/c/cypress_hill/cypresshill64.htm).

Bladder-ga arrives on the scene and backs up skermit-ga's answer. 
Skermit-ga answered A QUESTION, but I don't think he answered the
question that is actually being asked.

cjs2u-ga pointed out that the Desert Eagle handgun (I happen to own
one of these) weighs slightly more than 4 lbs.  The exact weight
ranges between 1766g-2050g or 62.4 oz-72.4 oz. depending on which
model you have (http://www.magnumresearch.com/old/techdata.html).

cjs2u-ga said something that I DO agree with:

   "I seriously doubt rappers think about trigger pull weights..."

cjs2u-ga also said something that I DONT agree with:

   "But now, the word refers to any gun. rapdict.org is wrong if
that's
how you "know" four pound=.45. Jay-Z even shortens it to "fours" to
refer to any guns; see Ride or Die."

First of all, I use the term "four pound" to refer to a semi-automatic
pistol that is chambered to fire the .45ACP round (A Colt 1911-A1
comes to mind AKA "The Colt 45").  However, there is something to
consider when I say this.  The subject of the question refers to
lingo, or rather "slang" in hiphop dialect.  Many terms that are used
by rappers are universal, but there are also differences in dialect
that can be attributed to the cultures in different regions.  I have a
few friends who are rappers from inner-city Philadelphia who also say
that a "four pound" is a "forty-five".  Clearly in certain areas "four
pound" DOES refer to a .45 caliber handgun, but that doesn't disregard
other areas who may refer to a "four pound" as any handgun.  Being the
"Hip-Hop Junkie" that I am, I not only listen to many rap artists, but
I write my own lyrics as well so I have a good, working knowledge base
of hip-hop culture.

cjs2u-ga's second comment stated that rappers, such as Jay-Z, use the
term "fours" to refer to handguns.  I can only partially agree with
this statement.  From what I listen to I have noticed that rappers
have used different numbers to refer to different calibers of
handguns.  For example, the numer "four" has been used to refer to a
.40 caliber pistol.  A "Seven" refers to a pistol that fires the
powerful .357 Magnum round.  "An "Eight" refers to a .38 Special
pistol.  A "Nine" refers to a 9mm Parabellum pistol.  And a "six"
doesn't refer to any caliber, rather it refers to a revolver since
most revolvers are "six-shooters".

That's how it is.

Dear merc2112,

I found reading this thread very interesting...

I understand you are looking for a definitive source... however
dictionaries are descriptive rather than prescriptive... Since a
number of lyrics can be cited that use 4 pound to mean (i).45 caliber
or (ii) gun, it seems quite reasonable to me that, in the former case
any direct meaning of pound has been lost: there has been no support
found for the meaning ".05".

Also since 4 pound is an above median weight for a gangster handgun -
this adds weight to the weight origin :-)

However, I don't think that it is so totally unreasonable for
skermit's trigger pull theory to have contributed... perhaps a misuse
of an already coined term relating to guns. It is easy to see how a
gun enthusiast would discount the weight attribution.

In either case your answer would be that pound has lost any direct
meaning, as is often the case in word meanings.

Regards,

Method Man and Redman definitely use it as a .45 ["Brown"ing in one
case]
http://www.ohhla.com/anonymous/method/t2/elements.mth.txt
http://www.ohhla.com/anonymous/drunken/style/redman.dme.txt
Since I don't listen to either one of those two I didn't realize it
could mean only .45 for some people or regions; the way Jay-Z and Nas
use it is any gun.