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Subject:
Draining Efficiency of a Whirlpool
Category: Science > Physics Asked by: nickgall-ga List Price: $20.00 |
Posted:
16 Aug 2004 02:26 PDT
Expires: 15 Sep 2004 02:26 PDT Question ID: 388429 |
When a whirlpool forms above a tub drain as the tub empties, does the whirlpool speed up the rate at which the tub drains? (or slow it down?) (or not affect the rate at all?) I am looking for a web page that explains the physics behind the answer. I know that a whirlpool (or vortex, e.g., tornado, waterspout, whirlpool) is a "dissipative structure", I just haven't seen any discussion of how much (or whether or not) it increases the rate of dissipation. An answer which generalized to this overall perspective would be especially useful. |
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There is no answer at this time. |
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Subject:
Re: Draining Efficiency of a Whirlpool
From: saem_aero-ga on 16 Aug 2004 15:18 PDT |
Is your fluid a liquid flowing through a hole which is initiallied filled w/ air or the same fluid? An interesting experiment for you! If you have two of those two litre pop (or soda) bottles. Empty them both. Then fill one with a fluid, such as Water. Keep the other one empty. Next take the empty one and turn it upside down and line up the two openings of the bottles. Next use tap or some other method to SEAL the two lips together. So now you should have two bottles, one empty and one full with the lips sealed so that no fluid may escape. Now turn it over so that the fluid flows from one bottle to the other (kinda like an hour glass). You will see that bubbles are rising through the fluid. This is the first scenario. Record the time it takes for the fluid to completely leave the bottle from which it is flowing. Now for the next run - start swirling the fluid by spinning it with your hands very quickly to make a sort of whirlpool. Then quickly flip over the bottles into the hour glass fashion once more. You will then see that the fluid is flowing down through the sealed lips in a whirlpool fashion. get the time to complete. You will notice that the fluid moves from the top bottle to the bottom in a much shorter time. Just a friendly comment. =) |
Subject:
Re: Draining Efficiency of a Whirlpool
From: nickgall-ga on 17 Aug 2004 01:43 PDT |
Thanks for the helpful comment. It helps confirms my belief that a whirlpool does increase draining efficiency. I'll give it a try when I can find two 2 liter bottles. (I don't drink softdrinks much anymore.) I still need to know WHY a whirlpool increases draining efficiency. A friend and I are discussing dissipative structures (DS's) and I pointed to a vortex as a great example of a self-organizing DS (SODS?) because it accelerates the dissipation of energy (temperature) gradients. Then he pointed out that vortices are often associated with turbulence (e.g., on the tips of wings), NOT more efficient flow. He claimed that laminar flow is the most efficient flow, not votical flow. I tentatively agreed, but claimed that vortical flow was still more efficient that random flow (e.g., water draining from a tub w/o laminar or vortical flow). He wasn't sure he believed this. Hence the question. |
Subject:
Re: Draining Efficiency of a Whirlpool
From: saem_aero-ga on 17 Aug 2004 06:38 PDT |
Laminar Flow is nice most of the time. But there are many instances to even CREATE transition or turbulent flow which are highly beneficial. To prove my point please see the following journal articles (which are simply two examples) - (I am not the author of any of these papers) - Enhancement of passive mixing tabs by the addition of secondary tabs AIAA Paper 96-0545 (AIAA Accession number 18505) D. G. Bohl and J. F. Foss (Michigan State Univ., East Lansing) AIAA, Aerospace Sciences Meeting and Exhibit, 34th, Reno, NV, Jan. 15-18, 1996 The Design and Testing of a Winglet Airfoil for Low Speed Aircraft AIAA 2001-2478 Mark D. Maughmer, Timothy S. Swan, Steven M. Willits (Penn. State Univ., Univ. Park) I'm not sure if TECHNICALLY a vortice is a turbulent structure. Some people in industry might refer to it as one and some strict academics might not. I'm not sure. But let me reference Kovasznay when he decomposed the fluctuations into... the VORTICITY, acoustic, and entropy modes. So I believe it can be classified as one. For the winglets on the plane, which amplifies the trailing vortices from the wingtip - Yes the drag coefficient is reduced at the correct conditions. That is why at airports the past years you have seen them being added to older planes. Also if you look at some birds they have them! A great example of man copying nature... of course I believe that this discovery was refined and implimented with CFD methods. Let me ask around today and I'll post a comment later on the subject. I don't think I'm going to find an answer in papers but by an explanation from a professional. I'm guessing it can best be described by some kind of math juggling with the navier-stokes equations and not a turbulent explanation. Best Steve. |
Subject:
Re: Draining Efficiency of a Whirlpool
From: saem_aero-ga on 17 Aug 2004 11:23 PDT |
For the more complex case of a single phase flow (not two phase flow as my example in my first comment/experiment) The rate will stay the same. According to the Reynold's Transport Theorem and the conservation of mass: material derivative*(integral(density w/ volume))=partial derivative w/ time of the integral(density,volume) + integral of (density*velocity dot Unit normal) over the area. for simplicity lets reduce this to: 0 = integral of (density*velocity dot Unit normal) over the area (inlet and outlet). Since the density is constant (water) we can take that out of the equation... 0 = integral of (velocity dot Unit normal) over the area (inlet and outlet). since the velocity is dotted with the unit normal of the exit (drain) you can see that any component in the direction normal to the outlet will remain and any component of hte velocity flush with the outlet (eg the swirl/whirlpool) will be thrown out. Therefore the flow rate out of the drain will remain constant. This was for the viscous case. For the invicid case we can just use the principle of bournoulli to show that it will flow at the same rate. You can look up RTT in any basic fluid mechanics or dynamics text book. Steve. |
Subject:
Re: Draining Efficiency of a Whirlpool
From: dmrmv-ga on 24 Aug 2004 11:18 PDT |
Any bartender who has filled wine carafes from bottles could tell you observing the speed improvement from creating a vortex doesn't require taping two bottles together. When emptying a bottle, there is no air pressure pushing down from the top of the bottle so liquid leaving the bottle must be replaced by air from outside the bottle. In the case of no vortex, air must bubble up through the liquid, creating a great deal of turbulence at the neck which reduces flow. When a strong vortex is created in a properly shaped bottle, the the vortex extends through the neck and air can pass directly through the vortex into the top of the bottle. The pouring speed increase when this vortex is created is dramatic, and can actually seem like the liquid is pressurized when the hole is formed. However, the shape of the bottle is significant: if the vortex doesn't extend through the neck, then the speed increase will solely be due to a more streamlined flow and air must still bubble up through the liquid. It would be interesting to take two identical bottles and cut the bottom off one bottle, then empty them with and without vortex twirling to see what the speed differences were - although the open bottom one would probably drain so quickly it would be impossible to create a vortex. In the case of the bathtub, of course, air pressure is already forcing the water down the drain so this bottle effect wouldn't be of any significance. Assuming a properly functioning drain, any speed difference should be attributable to more efficient flow. |
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