When I was a kid, we'd speak of HAY-lee's comet. Then all of a sudden
broadcasters began to pronounce it HAA-lee's. Soviet premier Kruschev
was first called CRUCE-cheff, but later CRUCE-choff. Then there's the
PEW-lit-zer prize, later and now pronounced PUL-it-zer. "Short lived"
(short i) is now "short lIved" (long i). What causes such changes in
pronunciation?

---

Clarification of Question by nautico-ga on 22 Aug 2004 05:05 PDT

Hi, Pink!

But why would broadcasters not first research family name
pronunciations? Surely they had access to sources early on that would
have provided them with the correct versions? Are you suggesting they
simply guessed wrong and that the incorrect versions were inevitably
perpetuated?

Re the pronunciation of "short lived," and with particular reference
to the article you cited, word maven Bill Safire once wrote, "when
enough of us are wrong, we're right."

I enjoyed your listing of the Libyan dictator's name variants. Hey,
maybe they're all different guys!

---

Request for Question Clarification by pinkfreud-ga on 22 Aug 2004 10:44 PDT

>> But why would broadcasters not first research family name
>> pronunciations? Surely they had access to sources early on that 
>> would have provided them with the correct versions? Are you 
>> suggesting they simply guessed wrong and that the incorrect 
>> versions were inevitably perpetuated?

Again, this is just speculation. I can't prove any of it. That's why I
haven't posted an answer to your question.

I'm sure that broadcasters in times past had access to sources that
would have enabled them to give more accurate pronunciations. But, in
the early years of TV news, I don't think they cared as much about
such accuracy as they do today. Proper names were more likely to be
pronounced capriciously. In the 1950s, my town's leading news anchor
pronounced the first syllable of FDR's surname ("Roosevelt") in a
manner that rhymed with "moose."

If you look at the word "Halley's," it would not normally be
pronounced with a long 'a' by the rules of English pronunciation. I
can't think of any English word in which the letter sequence 'all'
would have a long 'a'. I wonder if the persistent mispronunciation of
"Halley's comet" may be traced to the popularity of the rock 'n' roll
group "Bill Haley and His Comets," whose name was an obvious pun.

While I was noodling around trying to find some backup for my
theories, I came across this amusing essay:

http://www.ronaldbrucemeyer.com/archive/sloucher.htm

---

Request for Question Clarification by pinkfreud-ga on 22 Aug 2004 11:05 PDT

I've found some online backup for my conjecture about Bill Haley:

"Comet Halley...
Note: The most standard pronunciation of 'Halley' is /hæli/, to rhyme
with 'valley'. The pronunciation /hejli/ (to rhyme with 'Bailey') is
thought to have originated by association with the rock group Bill
Haley & His Comets."

Wikipedia: Comet Halley
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halley's_Comet

---

Clarification of Question by nautico-ga on 22 Aug 2004 11:47 PDT

Pink,

Go ahead and make it your answer, as I don't think we're going to get
any further with this.

I suspect you and others are right about the Bill Haley thingie, Makes sense.

I, too, have heard Roosevelt pronounced RUSE-a-velt. Wonder if that
might not be a regional thing.

Speaking of "shibboleth," I'd once heard that the reason the Thames
River isn't pronounced with the "th" sound is that one of the English
kings of German ancestry had difficulty with it and ordered all his
subjects to pronounce it as it still is today.

One final question/comment. Why do you suppose broadcasters will break
their tongues on neek-a-RAWG-wah, but wouldn't be caught dead saying
either MEH-hi-co or pa-REE? Then there are the debates over the proper
pronunciation of the Anglicized "Copenhagen": co-pen-HAY-gen vs.
co-pen-HAH-gen. Since the Danes spell it Kobnhavn and pronounce it
KUH-ben-hahven, what the heck's the diff?!

OK, enough already. I think I have way too much time on my hands.

Thank you for accepting my speculations as your answer. I've reposted
my remarks below.

======================================================================

I grew up hearing Halley's comet pronounced as haa-lee's (rhyming with
"alleys"), and I was taught to pronounce short-lived with a long i.
But I certainly remember having heard Khrushchev and Pulitzer
pronounced in the way you describe.

In the case of Halley, Khrushchev, and Pulitzer, I think the variant
pronunciations that you've given are closer to the way the surnames
were pronounced by those who bore those famous names. In recent times,
there seems to be more sensitivity to such things. I cannot prove it,
but I suspect that network news anchors were, at some point, directed
to use pronunciations that are similar to the way these people (Edmond
Halley, Nikita Khrushchev, and Joseph Pulitzer) pronounced their own
names. Similarly, network news folks now use modernized versions of
the names of other nations. When did you last hear a TV newscaster
refer to the Ivory Coast?

The pronunciations used on television are highly influential. I
imagine that if Tom Brokaw, Dan Rather, and Peter Jennings began to
pronounce Vice President Dick Cheney's surname as CHEE-nee, the new
pronunciation would spread like wildfire, and most people wouldn't be
able to pinpoint the origin of the change.

Here's something interesting about the name Khrushchev:

"There's also the distinction between e and ë: these are actually two
distinct Cyrillic letters with different sounds (written the same way
in both alphabets), but just to make life interesting for us the
Russians often omit the umlaut, thus causing it to be omitted in the
transliteration as well. This is why familiar names like Gorbachev and
Khrushchev sound like they have different vowels in their last
syllables than they appear to: in fact they should be spelled
Gorbachëv and Khrushchëv."

http://www.math.nyu.edu/~wendlc/pronunciation/Russian.html

And an article about "short lived":

http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19960717

Thinking about these things reminds me: I sure wish everybody could
agree on how to spell and pronounce the name of a certain Libyan
leader...

Muammar Qaddafi 
Mo'ammar Gadhafi 
Muammar Kaddafi 
Muammar Qadhafi 
Moammar El Kadhafi 
Muammar Gadafi 
Mu'ammar al-Qadafi 
Moamer El Kazzafi 
Moamar al-Gaddafi 
Mu'ammar Al Qathafi 
Muammar Al Qathafi 
Mo'ammar el-Gadhafi 
Moamar El Kadhafi 
Muammar al-Qadhafi 
Mu'ammar al-Qadhdhafi 
Mu'ammar Qadafi 
Muamer Gadafi 
Moamar Gaddafi 
Mu'ammar Qadhdhafi 
Muammar Khaddafi 
Muammar al-Khaddafi 
Mu'amar al-Kadafi 
Muammar Ghaddafy 
Muammar Ghadafi 
Muammar Ghaddafi 
Muamar Kaddafi 
Muammar Quathafi 
Muammar Gheddafi 
Muamar Al-Kaddafi 
Moammar Khadafy 
Moammar Qudhafi 
Mu'ammar al-Qaddafi 
Mulazim Awwal Mu'ammar Muhammad Abu Minyar al-Qadhafi 

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Moammar_Al_Qadhafi

I'm sure that broadcasters in times past had access to sources that
would have enabled them to give more accurate pronunciations. But, in
the early years of TV news, I don't think they cared as much about
such accuracy as they do today. Proper names were more likely to be
pronounced capriciously. In the 1950s, my town's leading news anchor
pronounced the first syllable of FDR's surname ("Roosevelt") in a
manner that rhymed with "moose."

If you look at the word "Halley's," it would not normally be
pronounced with a long 'a' by the rules of English pronunciation. I
can't think of any English word in which the letter sequence 'all'
would have a long 'a'. I wonder if the persistent mispronunciation of
"Halley's comet" may be traced to the popularity of the rock 'n' roll
group "Bill Haley and His Comets," whose name was an obvious pun.

"Comet Halley...
Note: The most standard pronunciation of 'Halley' is /hæli/, to rhyme
with 'valley". The pronunciation /hejli/ (to rhyme with 'Bailey') is
thought to have originated by relation with the rock group Bill Haley
& His Comets."

WordIQ: Comet Halley
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Comet_Halley

======================================================================

>> One final question/comment. Why do you suppose broadcasters will 
>> break their tongues on neek-a-RAWG-wah, but wouldn't be caught
>> dead saying either MEH-hi-co or pa-REE? Then there are the 
>> debates over the proper pronunciation of the Anglicized 
>> "Copenhagen": co-pen-HAY-gen vs. co-pen-HAH-gen. Since the Danes 
>> spell it Kobnhavn and pronounce it KUH-ben-hahven, what the 
>> heck's the diff?!

I hope this is a rhetorical question/comment, since it isn't easily
answered. The old Gershwin song "Let's Call the Whole Thing Off" is
flitting through my head: "You like to-may-to and I like to-mah-to..."

I've found two excellent (and amusing) discussions of the
pronunciation of place names. Normally I chop excerpts from
full-length articles and post the snippets, but these are goodies that
are well worth reading in their entirety:

National Review: "Gutter" Politics
http://www.nationalreview.com/nordlinger/nordlinger112002.asp

Dean's World: Pronouncing Names 
http://www.deanesmay.com/archives/001079.html

Best,
Pink

Great job, Pink, and I loved the articles you cited at the end.

Howdy-hi, Nautico!

I grew up hearing Halley's comet pronounced as haa-lee's (rhyming with
"alleys"), and I was taught to pronounce short-lived with a long i.
But I certainly remember having heard Khrushchev and Pulitzer
pronounced in the way you describe.

In the case of Halley, Khrushchev, and Pulitzer, I think the variant
pronunciations that you've given are closer to the way the surnames
were pronounced by those who bore those famous names. In recent times,
there seems to be more sensitivity to such things. I cannot prove it,
but I suspect that network news anchors were, at some point, directed
to use pronunciations that are similar to the way these people (Edmond
Halley, Nikita Khrushchev, and Joseph Pulitzer) pronounced their own
names. Similarly, network news folks now use modernized versions of
the names of other nations. When did you last hear a TV newscaster
refer to the Ivory Coast?

The pronunciations used on television are highly influential. I
imagine that if Tom Brokaw, Dan Rather, and Peter Jennings began to
pronounce Vice President Dick Cheney's surname as CHEE-nee, the new
pronunciation would spread like wildfire, and most people wouldn't be
able to pinpoint the origin of the change.

Here's something interesting about the name Khrushchev:

"There's also the distinction between e and ë: these are actually two
distinct Cyrillic letters with different sounds (written the same way
in both alphabets), but just to make life interesting for us the
Russians often omit the umlaut, thus causing it to be omitted in the
transliteration as well. This is why familiar names like Gorbachev and
Khrushchev sound like they have different vowels in their last
syllables than they appear to: in fact they should be spelled
Gorbachëv and Khrushchëv."

http://www.math.nyu.edu/~wendlc/pronunciation/Russian.html

And an article about "short lived":

http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19960717

Thinking about these things reminds me: I sure wish everybody could
agree on how to spell and pronounce the name of a certain Libyan
leader...

Muammar Qaddafi 
Mo'ammar Gadhafi 
Muammar Kaddafi 
Muammar Qadhafi 
Moammar El Kadhafi 
Muammar Gadafi 
Mu'ammar al-Qadafi 
Moamer El Kazzafi 
Moamar al-Gaddafi 
Mu'ammar Al Qathafi 
Muammar Al Qathafi 
Mo'ammar el-Gadhafi 
Moamar El Kadhafi 
Muammar al-Qadhafi 
Mu'ammar al-Qadhdhafi 
Mu'ammar Qadafi 
Muamer Gadafi 
Moamar Gaddafi 
Mu'ammar Qadhdhafi 
Muammar Khaddafi 
Muammar al-Khaddafi 
Mu'amar al-Kadafi 
Muammar Ghaddafy 
Muammar Ghadafi 
Muammar Ghaddafi 
Muamar Kaddafi 
Muammar Quathafi 
Muammar Gheddafi 
Muamar Al-Kaddafi 
Moammar Khadafy 
Moammar Qudhafi 
Mu'ammar al-Qaddafi 
Mulazim Awwal Mu'ammar Muhammad Abu Minyar al-Qadhafi 

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Moammar_Al_Qadhafi

Many thanks for the five stars and the generous tip! This was a very
enjoyable project. I'm glad I was able to 'Kabul' together an answer
that was satisfactory.

~Pink

Pink's Gershwin moment has reminded me of an hilarous karaoke
moment... I was out with some mates, belting out showtunes in our
local karaoke bar, having a ball, when a bloke previously unknown to
us gets up, choosing the aforementioned "Let's Call the Whole Thing
Off" from the songlist.  He vaguely knew the tune, but his rendition
followed the lyrics on the screen faithfully:
"You say toMAHto, I say toMAHto, 
You say poTAYto, I say poTAYto, 
ToMAHto, toMAHto, poTAYto, poTAYto..."

AND, his female friend got up to sing Ado Annie's "I Cain't Say No"
very prettily... However her terribly proper English pronunciation of
"I'm just a girl who caaahn't say no" kinda spoilt the premise...!

Nice answer, Pinkie.

A.

I forgot to mention Geoffrey Nunberg's latest book, "Going Nucular."
In it he attributes Dubya's mispronunciation of "nuclear" to what he
calls "faux bubba," which in turn he defines as a semi-conscious
desire to appear non-elitist. Funny.

I seem to recall Eisenhower, LBJ, Carter, and Clinton saying 'nucular'
instead of 'nuclear.'

I think this is a southern thing.

These boys were all from the south (Ike was born in Texas!)

Hope y'all will excuse me. When, in my comment above, I said "this is
a southern thing," I should have said "this is a southern thang."

~pankfreud

Now, Pink, y'all just git yersef in your pickup and come on down to
St. Augustine. I'll tell you all you need to know about Southern
vernakular. No need to bring a dog, beer, or a shotgun. I got those
here.

Actually, I find it hard to believe Carter would say "nucular." After
all, that was his field!

Here's something amusing on the subject of 'nucular':

http://www.borowitzreport.com/archive_rpt.asp?rec=497

Pink, that IS funny! Hey, here's another word that either gets
mispronounced or avoided because people are unsure of its
pronunciation:

AWRY.

I've heard it pronounced AW-ree!

My first wife once came inside after working in the yard and proudly
announced that she had just wed the garden. I had neither the heart
nor the courage to correct her!

I think most of us have hidden pockets of mispronunciation in our
brains. Even very well-read people sometimes emit howlers. More than
once, I have heard educated speakers pronounce the word "misled"
(meaning "led astray") in a way that would rhyme with "whistled." At
such times I am always torn between the options of politely offering a
correction (at the risk of offending the speaker) and keeping my mouth
shut in order to avoid the appearance of being a holier-than-thou Ms.
Language Person. I usually keep my mouth shut, since this uses fewer
muscles and doesn't cause wrinkles.

My own secret shame: for many decades, I saw the word "painstaking" as
"pain staking" rather than as "pains taking," and I pronounced it
accordingly. A subtle difference, but still an embarrassing one, once
I caught on.

And for years I said MASH-in-a-tions until someone told me it was
MACK-in-a-tions. Given the pronunciation of ma-SHEEN, the former had
seemed perfectly logical to me.

Pink,
I am from Georgia.  Jimmy Carter definitely pronounces nuclear as
"new-key-er"  This pronunciation is not shared by anyone else I know,
in Georgia OR Alabama.