my client's website [london-hotels-direct.com] does not come up at all
in Google for search term "london hotels", even though the site has
unique content and is pretty okay built. My feeling is that the site
is penalised for something, and i need you to help me understand what
to do to push this site up in the search results. many thanks

Thanks for asking. 

Please note that Google Answers Researchers are not Google employees,
and we don't speak officially for the company. Those of us who answer
this type of question on Google Answers are generally knowledgeable
about the search engines, and search engine optimization. We offer
insight about search placement, based on outside observation and
experience, and familiarity with search engine guidelines.


That said, and fine print out of the way, first, look at "My Site is
not included in the Google Index" page, especially Section B. Google
explains:

-- Changes from one index to the next
-- Multiple indices
-- Other reasons

Possible explanations:

"Your site may not have been reachable when we tried to crawl it
because of network or hosting problems....If it was a transient
problem, your site will likely show up in the next index, which will
be completed in a few weeks."

or

"A technical glitch on our side may have caused us to 'miss' your site."

Google Webmasters | Site Not Included
://www.google.com/webmasters/2.html


If these reasons can be excluded, then it's possible that "Your page
was manually removed from our index, because it did not conform with
the quality standards necessary to assign accurate PageRank. We will
not comment on the individual reasons a page was removed and we do not
offer an exhaustive list of practices that can cause removal. However,
certain actions such as cloaking, writing text that can be seen by
search engines but not by users, or setting up pages/links with the
sole purpose of fooling search engines may result in permanent removal
from our index."

Google Webmasters | Site Not Included
://www.google.com/webmasters/2.html


After examination of the website and its linking practices, I can say
yes, it's likely that the website has been penalized by both Google
and Yahoo. Yahoo search results are fed to MSN. Yahoo-penalized sites
will also be penalized on MSN Search [ See Search Engine Relationship
Chart:  http://www.bruceclay.com/searchenginerelationshipchart.htm ].


The linking practice that has likely led to a penalty is the
interlinking of one's own sites, which is seen as an attempt to
artificially raise PageRank (Google) or Search Engine Ranking (Yahoo).

The interlinked sites include "hotels-direct.com" in a number of
cities. I find over 3,000 cross links in Google. Yahoo tells me there
are over 14,000 cross-links.

Yahoo Search
link:http://www.london-hotels-direct.com +inurl:hotels-direct
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=link%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.london-hotels-direct.com+%2Binurl%3Ahotels-direct

Google Search
"london-hotels-direct.+com"
://www.google.com/search?q=%22london-hotels-direct.%2Bcom%22


What Yahoo! Considers Unwanted
----------------------------------------------------------------------

-- Pages using methods to artificially inflate search engine ranking 
-- Excessively cross-linking sites to inflate a site's apparent 
   popularity 

Yahoo Search Guidelines
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/ysearch/deletions/deletions-05.html


Google Webmaster Guidelines
----------------------------------------------------------------------

"Don't participate in link schemes designed to increase your site's
ranking or PageRank."

Quality Guidelines | Basic Principles
://www.google.com/webmasters/guidelines.html


Recent Trends
----------------------------------------------------------------------

In recent months, there have been a number of updates of Google Search
Engine Results. In the second August update, a number of sites in the
travel sector reported lower rankings or being dropped from the index
(top 1000 results per keyword, or keyword phrase) entirely. It appears
that there is some experimentation with filters that are able to
"catch" sites that use extensive cross linking, since many of the
sites that have been penalized use this practice. Some sites return
briefly, then disappear again the next month. As search engines become
more sophisticated so do their methods of enforcing their search
quality standards.

Yahoo reportedly penalizes cross-linkage even more heavily than Google. 

I recommend you register at Webmaster World in order read a recent
discussion thread in the Google News forum on "Factors for Identifying
Commonly Operated Websites -- How can Google and Other Crawler-based
SE's Tie My Sites Together?"

Crosslink Detection (Requires (free) Registration)
http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum3/25568.htm


Once a site has been penalized for undesirable practices, getting back
into the index is sometimes difficult. Google describes what it
considers necessary for re-inclusion: "If you think your site may fall
into this category, you might try 'cleaning up' the page and sending a
re-inclusion request to help@google.com. We do not make any guarantees
about if or when we will re-include your site."

Google Webmasters | Site Not Included
://www.google.com/webmasters/2.html


Yahoo does not offer any specific instructions for reversing
penalties. Possible methods briefly discussed, and some refuted here:

Back into Yahoo Search?
http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum35/2611.htm
http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum35/2695.htm


I hope you find this information useful. I'm sorry I don't have better
news. I think it will take some extensive changes to the current
linkage combined with a vigorous, organic (natural) linking campaign
to get the site back into the listings and out of danger of penalties.

Should you have questions about the information or links provided,
please, feel free to ask for clarification.

---larre





Additional SEO Resources
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Google Rankings
http://www.googlerankings.com

Yahoo Rankings
http://www.yahoorankings.com

Search Engine Watch (THE source for Search Engine News)
http://www.searchenginewatch.com

Webmaster World
http://www.webmasterworld.com

Search Engine Online Search Engine Tools
http://www.searchengineworld.com/misc/tools.htm

HighRankings Advisor (free Newsletter, plus extensive Archives)
http://www.highrankings.com/advisor.htm

SEO Chat Forums
http://www.seochat.com/


Answer Strategy
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I prepared this answer from personal bookmarks, and well known SEO
expert sites. The information provided is based upon personal and
professional experience as a web designer, working in tandem with
search engine optimization specialists.

Search Terms (Google, Yahoo)

crosslinking OR interlinking penalties Yahoo OR Google

---

Request for Answer Clarification by ck_be-ga on 11 Sep 2004 14:35 PDT

i went through your answer in detail, thank you again.

there's only section that needs clarification:
Google Search
"london-hotels-direct.+com"
://www.google.com/search?q=%22london-hotels-direct.%2Bcom%22

how are you able to tell that these sites are interlinked and what
does the ".+" bit do?
i did a similar search for londonnights.com *that's the number one in results
://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=%22londonnights.%2Bcom%22
and the results are 1,600 pages

thanks very much C.K.

---

Clarification of Answer by larre-ga on 11 Sep 2004 18:17 PDT

The "london-hotels-direct.+com" is simply the way to locate sites that
use the url, whether catalogued as an official backlink or not.
Google's Backlink feature has been notoriously un-useful for
determining backlinking. I often search on other SEs to locate
additional backlinks not found with the official Google links:
command.

How could I tell sites were interlinked? 

-- domain names (hotels-direct)
-- similar look and feel 
-- similar: image names, filenames, content structure
-- only 60-some links shown out of 14K, the rest all from 
   those same sites


---l

the researcher provided one small crucial tip that i overlooked before.
i didn't give it a 5* rating because the SE chart is outdated.
otherwise, worth the money.

Thank you for that, expect more questions soon :)