I interviewed with an engineering firm in the Boulder Co area (Ball
Aerospace) last week.  Everything went fine with the engineering folks
however I ran into a problem with the HR person:

On the employment form I indicated they could contact all of my
previous managers, with the exception of my current manager.  I
thought this would not be a problem, since naturally I did not tell my
current boss I am interviewing.  However the Ball HR guy indicated
that they must speak with him before they could forward a written
offer.  I told him this is a problem, and he said that they can give
me a verbal offer, but the formal offer will be contingent on a
recommendation from my current manager (he would ask for an assessment
of my skills and contributions, not just name, rank, serial #)

My current boss is a pretty good guy, but under these circumstances I
am worried that he will give them little or no info (likely) or
possibly give me a very bad recommendation with the hope that the
offer would not materialize (less likely but possible).  I know if I
was the in his shoes, I would not be very cooperative..

I am on pretty good terms with the HR guy at BAll, but when I
mentioned the conflict of interest, he stood his ground and said it
was a requirement.   The company does a lot of government contracts
and they seem to be inflexible to change the rules, given my
situation.

Also, the job will likely require a secret security clearance, so the
references are considered a very important part of the application.

I dont't know how to tell my boss I am going to quit, and oh by the
way I need his immediate endorcement to secure a new position.  I feel
this is very awkward to say the least and may compromise our
relationship in the event that I do need his help later on in my
career.  Other than that, I was very impressed with Ball, so I hate to
miss out on what looks like a very good opportunity.

I would appreciate some help, especially from someone with some human
resources experience.
thanks.
Dave

---

Request for Question Clarification by czh-ga on 14 Sep 2004 11:48 PDT

Hello dgravina-ga,

I?ve found some articles that address this question from both sides,
that of the recruiter/HR person/employer and that of the candidate/job
seeker. Would this meet your needs? Thanks.

~ czh ~

---

Clarification of Question by dgravina-ga on 15 Sep 2004 20:52 PDT

Hello CZH,  yes it sounds like the articles are what I was really
looking for.  thanks.
Dave

Hello Dave,

Congratulations on your excellent job prospects. Getting reference
checking completed can be a tricky if you don?t want your current
employer to know that you?re thinking of leaving. You will want to be
sure that you?re getting an offer before you announce your imminent
departure. On the other hand, employers frequently have a policy that
employment offers cannot be made without getting a satisfactory
reference from the current employer. So how to get around this
dilemma?

You should tell your prospective employer that you want to inform your
current employer to expect a reference call and that you will not give
permission until you know that you?re a finalist for the job or have
been extended a conditional offer based on getting a satisfactory
reference from your current employer. Most employers understand your
situation and will be willing to accommodate your needs.

I?ve collected some articles that give you a perspective on this
reference check problem from both sides and suggest how to handle the
problem. If you are sympathetic to your prospective company?s needs
they will likely be understanding about your constraints.

Wishing you success for your job change.

~ czh ~


=======================================
REFERENCE CHECKS ? EMPLOYEE PERSPECTIVE
=======================================

http://www.hatchmagazine.com/story.phtml?id=185
Take 2: Reference Check
Choosing the right people to help you score a new job, and the right
time to tell your would-be employer about them

If you don?t want to use people at your current place of employment
because you are nervous they will find out you?re job hunting, you
have two choices during the interviewing process. First, I would
suggest telling the truth by saying, ?I would like to hold back
references from my current employer until after an offer is extended
because I don?t want them knowing I am interviewing.?

However, if a potential employer insists on having immediate
references, ask them not to contact your references without your
permission. If you are being asked to provide references from your
current employer on an application or in email, put in writing, ?DO
NOT CONTACT WITHOUT MY PERMISSION,? and potential employers should
comply and understand.

It is always a good sign when someone gets a reference from his
current place of employment. Not only does it lend credibility, it
more importantly shows that you are respected and liked in the
organization. If you cannot identify someone and feel that you might
be putting yourself at risk, you should communicate this to your
potential employer and make sure they understand that you will be able
to provide references to them as the process moves along or after an
offer is made. At the same time, make sure you offer up references
from previous employers -- a good company will be respectful and
understanding of this.

***** Be sure to read the whole article to get a complete
understanding of how to handle a request from your prospective
employer to contact your current employer.

-------------------------------------------------


http://jobspage.typepad.com/jobspage/2004/06/how_long_to_kee.html
How long to keep job reference confidential?

A: It is entirely appropriate for you to say that you do not want your
current employer contacted unless you are a finalist and that, in
fact, you would like to have the chance to let your employer know that
a call will be coming in. Any good employer checks references and
understands the delicacy with which current employers should be told
that their staffers are under consideration elsewhere. No decent
employer would make such a call unless the candidate had a
better-than-average chance.

***** This question describes a situation that?s similar to yours.

-------------------------------------------------


http://jobspress.com/jobcolumn/column022602.html
Get a Job

In response to your second issue, there are employers who for whatever
reason do not react well when one of their current employees looks for
opportunities elsewhere. Prospective employers will want to have your
present employer as a reference. When candidates are unwilling to
provide their current employer as a reference it sends up a red flag.

However, it is OK to indicate on your resume that references are
available upon request. When asked for your references explain that
you would prefer not to use your current employer unless you are
seriously being considered for the position you have applied for. This
is not uncommon. Potential employers understand that people explore
opportunities without their present employers being aware of the fact.

If you were the preferred candidate in a competition then I would
advise that at that stage you give permission to contact your present
employer. When it comes to this time you should speak to your employer
first so they are prepared for the call.

-------------------------------------------------


http://www.rileyguide.com/refer.html
References & Recommendations

***** This site offers a collection of articles on how to handle your references.


=======================================
REFERENCE CHECKS ? EMPLOYER PERSPECTIVE
=======================================

http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1073793840
Make a Job Offer and Pre-employment Checks

When should I obtain a reference?

You can take up references at any point in the recruitment process.
However, many applicants will not want you to contact their current
employer before a conditional offer is made. See our guide on
recruiting and interviewing.

If you make a conditional offer, you need to put in the offer letter
words such as "I am pleased to offer you the post of ?????, subject to
receiving satisfactory references". However, if you then withdraw the
offer, you risk a claim for breach of contract.

-------------------------------------------------


http://www.thechildrenshospital.org/share/employment/application.pdf
Application for Employment

Employment may be contingent on acceptable references from current or
former employers.

***** This is an example of a job application and contains the fairly
typical statement of requiring references from current employers. The
prospective employer may make an offer contingent on the getting a
satisfactory reference.

-------------------------------------------------


http://hr.unl.edu/employment/ccfaqs.cfm#17
An applicant has checked "no" on their application form pertaining to
checking references with their current employer. What should I do?

In most cases, the employee does not want the current employer to know
that he/she is looking for another job, which is understandable. Once
you are certain this person is your top candidate, you should contact
that person and tell him/her that a job offer is contingent upon
reference checks with previous employers and ask permission to contact
the current employer. Typically, a candidate will agree to this
knowing that a job offer has been made. If they still decline to allow
you to do reference checks, you may want to reconsider your decision
to hire the candidate.



===============
SEARCH STRATEGY
===============

references from current employer
employment references

A nasty situation - not if you get the job, but if you don't

If you get it, then your ex boss will be p*ssed off, but time is a healer

If you don't get it, then you could find yourself collecting welfare.

I am not sure whether Google rules allow it, but my recommendation is
that the HR guy should be reclassified as sub human, and used for
scientific research.

I would also question the sense of working for a company that allows
cretins like him to screw up their 'sieving system'.

The cretin is making the assumption that your current boss is working
for your benefit, not that of the company that employs /him/.

In my experience, most bosses and managers WANT you to do well.  While
they might hate to lose you as a valued team member, most people will
understand that you have to make the moves that are right for you and
your future.  But, I don't know your boss personally.  Go with your
gut.

My experience is that managers want you to do well _for them_ and are
loath to let you move on even inside the company you work for, much
less for external companies. They are generally accepting of you
moving on after it has been decided since they know that you need new
challanges etc., but if asked for help in getting you that new
position will turn surprisingly against you. That includes bosses that
never seemed like they would do that.

forge

I'm with frde. He's a cretin of the worst form. I too would be wary of
working for someone who made it contigent upon a job offer and,
frankly, almost feel like they're trying to rule you out by doing so.