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Subject:
The folk in the Countries 'liberated' by Stalin from 1939 on ...
Category: Relationships and Society > Government Asked by: probonopublico-ga List Price: $15.00 |
Posted:
16 Sep 2004 05:38 PDT
Expires: 26 Sep 2004 22:19 PDT Question ID: 401962 |
Did they think it was their lucky day, or not? |
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There is no answer at this time. |
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Subject:
Re: The folk in the Countries 'liberated' by Stalin from 1939 on ...
From: scriptor-ga on 16 Sep 2004 06:24 PDT |
Hm, that's not an easy question. But let us see, what countries do we have in that list (in no particular order)? - Hungary. The Hungarians had experienced one year of German occupation with the terror regime of the Hungarian fascists. I could imagine that quite a few Hungarians were very happy to see the first tank with a red star on the turret. - Czechoslovakia. The Czech part of the country had been the Protektorat Böhmen und Mähren since 1939, which meant merciless direct rule from Berlin. Slovakia had a puppet regime under local fascists that were no better. It's hard to imagine that Czechs and Slovakians felt anything but joy when the Red Army arrived. - Poland. I could imagine that the Poles were rather disenchanted - after all, they were among the few peoples who had already made their experiences with Stalin's way of ruling, after their country had been divided up between the Soviet Union and Germany in 1939. And the Polish resistance fighters had surely not forgotten that the Red Army, on Stalin's orders, stood on the other side of the Vistula river, not moving a centimeter nor shooting a single bullet to support them during the Warsaw uprising of August/September 1944. - The three Baltic nations. They knew exactly what Soviet rule meant - after all, they had already been occupied from 1940 to 1941. Seeing the Germans leave and the Red Army return was certainly like exchanging the Devil for Satan to them. - Romania. A special case, since the Soviet army did not enter the country as liberator-conquerors, but as allies because Romania had switched sides after the anti-fascist royalist putsch of 23 August 1944. Yugoslavia was not really liberated by the Red Army; when the Soviets arrived, the Yugoslav partisan forces had already fulfilled most of this task themselves, resulting in a strong feeling of selfconfidence in the years to come. I don not have material about the internal situation of Bulgaria at hand, so I can't say anything about it and I pefer not to speculate whether authoritarian Czarist rule was popular with the Bugarians or not. As far as I know, Bulgaria, though a German ally, had never declared war on the USSR. Rather, the Soviets declared war on Bulgaria in 1944. This might have caused a certain bitter feeling, but I can't prove it at the moment. And Albania ... well, who can ever understand Albania? Regards, Scriptor |
Subject:
Re: The folk in the Countries 'liberated' by Stalin from 1939 on ...
From: probonopublico-ga on 16 Sep 2004 07:33 PDT |
Hi, Scriptor Well that is one great comment for starters. Would you like to expand into an Answer, or not? I lunched today and my waitress was a delightful young Russian woman. There are now so many here in Brighton and they all seem ever so nice. I've never been to Russia. Maybe I should. All the Best Bryan |
Subject:
Re: The folk in the Countries 'liberated' by Stalin from 1939 on ...
From: czh-ga on 16 Sep 2004 08:13 PDT |
My parents lived through the siege of Budapest. They watched the Russian soldiers shoot German prisoners of war on the banks of the Danube and dump their bodies in the river. My parents' apartment was looted by the Russians and my father was conscripted by them. My grandmother's house was bombed and the house where she took refuge with her daughters was appropriated by the Russians. They raped my 22 year old aunt but thought they were being kind because they brought a little black market sugar for her six year old sister. They terrorized everyone else in the home -- including my mother who had just given birth to me. No. Some Hungarians were not happy to see the Russians "liberate" them. ~ czh ~ |
Subject:
Re: The folk in the Countries 'liberated' by Stalin from 1939 on ...
From: pafalafa-ga on 16 Sep 2004 08:29 PDT |
Did the Iraqi's think it was their lucky day when the US arrived...? It's hard question to know the answer to, even in a very contemporary context. I'm not sure it's any easier to answer it historically. But if anyone can shed some light on it, I'm sure scriptor is the man for the job... paf |
Subject:
Re: The folk in the Countries 'liberated' by Stalin from 1939 on ...
From: scriptor-ga on 16 Sep 2004 08:57 PDT |
Hello Bryan! I'm not sure if I should try and expand my comment to an answer - after all, it only reflects the general impression I got from history books, and my colleague czh-ga's comment demonstrated how wrong I could be. I think that someone with better insight in Eastern European history than me should answer this question. I don't feel very well with providing such "fuzzy" information. If my comment was of any use for you, it has already fulfilled its purpose. Regards, Scriptor |
Subject:
Re: The folk in the Countries 'liberated' by Stalin from 1939 on ...
From: probonopublico-ga on 16 Sep 2004 10:18 PDT |
Hi, Again, Scriptor & Hi, czh ... What a horrific experience for your family. Such brutality is almost beyond belief. I believe that Stalin encouraged his troops to collect 'trophies'. As you say, Scriptor, only natives from the countries in question can possibly say ... The rest of us are just bewildered by the propaganda. I wonder if any other European readers have experiences that would be prepared to share? My warmest thanks to you both. All the Best Bryan |
Subject:
Re: The folk in the Countries 'liberated' by Stalin from 1939 on ...
From: valare-ga on 16 Sep 2004 17:10 PDT |
My Lithuanian grandparents left because of the Russians and during the war stayed in German transit camps as 'displaced' persons. I don't think they were looking to be liberated by the people they were basically running fun. It doesn't mean they had a fun time in Germany during those years, there were some things my Grandpa would never talk about. |
Subject:
Re: The folk in the Countries 'liberated' by Stalin from 1939 on ...
From: probonopublico-ga on 16 Sep 2004 23:33 PDT |
Thank you Valare for sharing your grandparents' experience. Sadly, there was no opportunity to ask such questions when they were alive but, as you say, there were some things that your Grandpa didn't want to talk about. Luckily, they evidently got away ... I understand that, after the war, millions were sent back to Russia, against their wishes. All the Best Bryan |
Subject:
Re: The folk in the Countries 'liberated' by Stalin from 1939 on ...
From: politicalguru-ga on 19 Sep 2004 02:22 PDT |
Your question is unanswerable, my dear Probono. If we talk about "people" in general, there aren't any real surveys that could be used to determine how people felt. If we talk about individuals, each has their own experience, and it is sometimes a mixed experience, of relief from the former regime and fear of the coming one. We tend to learn history, and to document, based on vast events, not on individual experiences. When we study a historical even such as the occupation of Eastern Europe by the Red Army, historians tend to look at the big picture - the alternative (Nazi or Nazi-puppet regimes), the war as a large-scale event, and to mark it as a "positive" event because of the downfall of these regimes and the end of the War. Individuals, on the other hand, might have different views, based on their own private experiences, that are very different from the big picture. Perhaps, an individual that wasn't Jewish or communist was not much bothered by the Nazi alternative. After all, antisemitism was prevalent in Eastern Europe at the time, and communism was viewed by many as a danger. A totalitarian regime such as the Nazi or the Nazi-sympthiser regimes, does not win its authority only by force - many people might have agreed with the inhilation of the Jews (who they hated in any case), the detention of Gypsies and the fight against communism. Many others would have cooperated with any regime, in order to survive. The lack of non-communist resistance against puppet-governments (that is, governments that were not preceived as occupying forces) demonstrates this point. Most of the non-communists (and non-Jews, of course) cooperated with the regime and might have even enjoyed (directly or indirectly) the confiscation of Jewish property. However, even if we follow this approach and claim that organisations and individuals usually legitimised the Fascist regimes, there were still people who resisted: the Church as an organisation might have cooperated with the Nazis, but individual priests and nuns did their best - under immense threat - to save as many Jews or communists as possible. These two groups could be hardly cosidered allies of the Church (though there was of course the hope of converting them). Not only the individual experiences during the Nazi (or collaborating Fascist) regimes was different, but of course also during the Red Army occupation. I disagree with Scriptor here, because as I demonstrated before, I think that most people just wanted to live their life, not to attract the Communists' negative attention, and therefore complied, just as they did with the Nazis. Some of them might have been happy - those who understood what kind of moral crimes have been committed or that have been themselves victims of the former regime. Some have been extremely unhappy - those who benefited directly or indirectly from the former regime, those who had been preceived as collaborators with the former regime. Most people had probably mixed feelings: - They weren't happy with a foreign army occupying their country; - There were some war crimes committed by the Soviets, against local population, especially where the population was viewed as a collaborator of the former regime; - On the other hand, the war was over, which probably made many happy; - And at least some were happy to get rid of the former regime. I was recently hospitalised, and a woman who was with me was about 70 and had experienced the occupation of Germany by the Red Army. The Soviets weren't very kind there: in Berlin, there are estimates of 50,000 rapes. She told me about the hunger by the last period of the war, about the constant life in the cellar (which was a shelter); she also remembered the chocolate and candies that the soldiers brought her, but also the fact that they took some family jewelry from the apartment. She said - but then again, this reflects her own very individual opinion, and she is a person who chose to stay in the Soviet Occupied Zone, in general, it wouldn't be acceptable for a German to say otherwise - that she felt immiense relief when the war was over and was generally happy, despite the difficulties. |
Subject:
Re: The folk in the Countries 'liberated' by Stalin from 1939 on ...
From: probonopublico-ga on 19 Sep 2004 04:00 PDT |
Hi, Politicalguru You are wrong! My question is answerable and your Comment would be very acceptable as such so please ask your butler to tickle the 'Answer' icon. You are absolutely right, I'm sure. I recall reading the autobiography of Norman Baillie-Stewart, one of the British renegades who broadcast Nazi propaganda. For some reason, he was in Austria when the Allied liberators arrived. The populace immediately switched their loyalties: their Swastikas were hidden and the Stars & Stripes (or whatever) suddenly appeared everywhere. I guess that our basic instinct is survival and our preferred mode is optimism. I was sorry to hear of your hospitalisation and I hope you are now back in harness. So send for the butler! All the Best Bryan |
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