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Q: Can someone do an analysis on my site and tell me why Iconocast was manually rem ( Answered 5 out of 5 stars,   2 Comments )
Question  
Subject: Can someone do an analysis on my site and tell me why Iconocast was manually rem
Category: Miscellaneous
Asked by: kamkat-ga
List Price: $200.00
Posted: 19 Sep 2004 06:07 PDT
Expires: 19 Oct 2004 06:07 PDT
Question ID: 403215
Can you refer me to someone who can do an analysis on my site at
www.iconocast.com and tell me why it was manually removed from Google
index.  Please!

Request for Question Clarification by jbf777-ga on 20 Sep 2004 10:02 PDT
No one other than Google could tell you precisely why your site was
removed.  And Google doesn't do that sort of thing.  The best that can
be had is an analysis yielding red flags that could lead to your
site's removal.  Would a referral to a service that could help you
with this be an answer to your question?

jbf777

Clarification of Question by kamkat-ga on 20 Sep 2004 10:32 PDT
What are the chances that this referral will eventually resolve the problem.

Does Google accept their analysis and their judgement?

Corey

Request for Question Clarification by jbf777-ga on 20 Sep 2004 13:24 PDT
Are you positive that the site was manually removed from the service?  

Also, have you looked at this page: ://www.google.com/webmasters/2.html
"Your page was manually removed from our index, because it did not
conform with the quality standards necessary to assign accurate
PageRank. We will not comment on the individual reasons a page was
removed and we do not offer an exhaustive list of practices that can
cause removal. However, certain actions such as cloaking, writing text
that can be seen by search engines but not by users, or setting up
pages/links with the sole purpose of fooling search engines may result
in permanent removal from our index. If you think your site may fall
into this category, you might try 'cleaning up' the page and sending a
re-inclusion request to help@google.com. We do not make any guarantees
about if or when we will re-include your site."

With regard to an outside evaluation service, Google doesn't have an
opinion either way.  In terms of the chances as to whether a service
can point to the exact cause, I do not know.  Perhaps we could find
one or more services with a money back guarantee.  Is this of
interest?

jbf777

Clarification of Question by kamkat-ga on 20 Sep 2004 16:05 PDT
How long do you think it will take them to consider or examin for re-inclusion?

Request for Question Clarification by jbf777-ga on 20 Sep 2004 16:17 PDT
I would think no more than a week, but I can't know for sure, because
it depends upon how complex your situation is.

Clarification of Question by kamkat-ga on 20 Sep 2004 17:41 PDT
Yes,  I like to know if there is an SEO that can guarantee inclusion
in Google after he/she analyze the site.

I also like to know if you can analyze both sites yourself and then
give your honest oppinion on this site.

If you find no objections based on Google Guide, I would appreciate it
if you comment that: I have examined all the pages at both
Iconocast.com and homeboundmortgage.com and I find no error that
Google should object to.  These sites are not too large.  If it helps
you, I can give you the user name and pass so you can examine the code
with Macromedia or another software.  If you can do that for me, then
we can close the question and you can get paid.

Corey

Clarification of Question by kamkat-ga on 20 Sep 2004 17:45 PDT
one more thing,
What do you think of this : http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum3/25638.htm

Does it make sense?  Sometimes I get paranoid and I think Google is
setting these guys up so put the blame on competition.

I have read the guide.  The reason I think I was manually removed is
because it was not the time for Google update.  It was Tuesday night
last week at 5, or 6 PM exactly.

I appreciat your help vcery much.

Clarification of Question by kamkat-ga on 20 Sep 2004 17:54 PDT
One more thing,

I do understand that your comment does not mean that Google will include.

I understand that.  I know you don't wok for Google.

Clarification of Question by kamkat-ga on 20 Sep 2004 22:07 PDT
Please ask the editor not to close this question.

Request for Question Clarification by jbf777-ga on 21 Sep 2004 07:30 PDT
Unfortunately, I wouldn't be the researcher who could examine the code
-- that's really not my area.  There are a few researchers here who
probably could, however.

Clarification of Question by kamkat-ga on 21 Sep 2004 08:12 PDT
Can you refer me to one?  Please

Request for Question Clarification by larre-ga on 21 Sep 2004 08:33 PDT
Hello Corey,

I've seen a few of your questions here, but I haven't been following
all the details closely. In this clarification exchange, you note that
your site was manually removed. Have you received confirmation of this
from a support department?

---l

Clarification of Question by kamkat-ga on 21 Sep 2004 13:11 PDT
Dear Sir/Madam,

I have not heard anything.  My site was removed at about 5 or 6 pm
last Tuesadt exactly.  Google was not updating at that time.  So I
believe that is the case.  Can you get confirmation from support
yourself?

I am willing to pay you as consultant outside this Google answer
session if it is OK with Google.

Corey

Request for Question Clarification by larre-ga on 21 Sep 2004 13:24 PDT
I have no special "in" at Google to find out about proprietary
information, which is what a manual deletion would be, if that's the
case.

I think it's likely an algorithm shift. I'll be happy to explain in
detail, based on my knowledge of the SE's, observations, and
discussions with other web site owners. I can look closely at your
site, including code, and tell you how site features match up to the
Guidelines. I can look over archived copies of the site, and see if
there are techniques used in the past that are considered out of
bounds. I can map out a strategy to help overcome the current
problems, and establish a good reputation with the SEs.

Google Answers TOS does not permit Researchers outside communication
with clients. I'll have to work with you on the Google Answers site,
within the restrictions imposed by my contract. I should be able to
post an initial analysis of the financial site by this evening (PDT).
Sit tight.

---l

Clarification of Question by kamkat-ga on 21 Sep 2004 13:58 PDT
Hi,

Thank you.  Do you think 200 is enough for both sites?  I am willing
to pay more if it is going take more effort to close the problem.

Let me know please.

Clarification of Question by kamkat-ga on 21 Sep 2004 15:47 PDT
I also need to clarify that I have already removed any page or links
that  could have been Google's objection.  If you look at the saved
cashes, and you also noticed these, I do not mind if you could
specifically mention them to me.

I like to thank you again for all your help.  I believe, if everything
work out, I should compensate you more. Thank you.
Answer  
Subject: Re: Can someone do an analysis on my site and tell me why Iconocast was manually
Answered By: larre-ga on 22 Sep 2004 00:46 PDT
Rated:5 out of 5 stars
 
Thanks for asking.

I've examined the pages of homeboundmortgage.com. It's difficult to
make a guesstimate about whether the site was manually removed, or
caught by a tightening of search engine algorithms, because either
way, based upon the practices used on the website, this would not be
unexpected.

The search engines are not terribly specific about the practices that
are considered to be SE spam, however, Google offers a short list:

-- Avoid hidden text or hidden links. 
-- Don't employ cloaking or sneaky redirects. 
-- Don't send automated queries to Google. 
-- Don't load pages with irrelevant words. 
-- Don't create multiple pages, subdomains, or domains with 
   substantially duplicate content. 
-- Avoid "doorway" pages created just for search engines, or other 
   "cookie cutter" approaches such as affiliate programs with little 
   or no original content

Most of "the rest" is covered by:

"Avoid tricks intended to improve search engine rankings. A good rule
of thumb is whether you'd feel comfortable explaining what you've done
to a website that competes with you. Another useful test is to ask,
"Does this help my users? Would I do this if search engines didn't
exist?""

"Don't participate in link schemes designed to increase your site's
ranking or PageRank. In particular, avoid links to web spammers or
"bad neighborhoods" on the web as your own ranking may be affected
adversely by those links."

"Google may respond negatively to other misleading practices not
listed here, (e.g. tricking users by registering misspellings of
well-known web sites). It's not safe to assume that just because a
specific deceptive technique isn't included on this page, Google
approves of it."

Webmaster Guidelines | Quality
://www.google.com/webmasters/guidelines.html


Yahoo Search is even more restrictive in their definitions of spam and
undesirables, however, concentration on detection and removal has not
been receiving quite as much focus. It would be an excellent idea to
be aware of and conform to Y's restrictions, since Yahoo has no
reacceptance policy. Banishment has been, in every case I've heard of,
permanent. [http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/ysearch/deletions/deletions-05.html]


Crosslinking / Interlinking
----------------------------------------------------------------------

The latest practice apparently added to the list of undesirables is
crosslinking or interlinking. Made for the SE sites are linked
together in an attempt to artificially inflate PageRank. Using Yahoo,
Google's "homeboundmortgage +com" search, and the Wayback machine,
I've located many such interlinks. Approximately 250 sites are
responsible for thousands of links. If I'm able to figure this out by
only a dozen backlink searches, the SE's can do so much more easily,
using the index itself.

"Cross-linking - If your entire site is sitting at PR0, one
possibility is a cross-linking penalty. Sometimes a webmaster who
controls two or more websites will place links from every page of one
website to every page of the other sites to increase the PageRank of
all the sites. If detected, this will quickly incur a penalty if not
an outright ban from the Google index."

Why's My Sites PageRank Now Zero
http://www.rlrouse.com/pagerank-penalty.html


Among other indicators, factors which might prompt discovery of
crosslinkage could be:

Same content verbatim
Same cookie structure
Javascript function names
Linked CSS and JS files
CSS class names
Same contact information posted on websites
Common name servers
Same/similar images and/or graphics theme
Site hosted on same IP/block
Whois information matching
Alexa contact information matching
Interlinking of domains
Common backlinks (indirect crosslinking)
Same credit card used for anything 
Login from same IP to separate accounts
Residual cookies from past logins
Similar file names or linking/directory structures
Code Comments


It used to be considered relatively safe to have as many inbound links
as possible. Regardless of source. Over the course of this year, that 
assumption has spawned link purchase, and hidden crosslinking. Now
sites must also be very careful about inbound links. The crosslinked
and purchased links networks have been devalued. Sites linking to
those types of networks have reported decreasing traffic, and finally,
over the past month or so, a number of such sites have been completely
dropped from the index.

The traffic trend for homeboundmortgage.com shows a similar pattern:

http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?&range=2y&size=medium&compare_sites=&url=http%3A//www.homeboundmortgage.com#top


Whether this was a manual removal or an algorithm shift can't be
determined without proprietary information from inside Google, which
we already know isn't possible. Remember Google's SE spam fighting
philosophy: "Google prefers developing scalable and automated
solutions to problems, so we attempt to minimize hand-to-hand spam
fighting. The spam reports we receive are used to create scalable
algorithms that recognize and block future spam attempts."

I'm not saying that homeboundmortgage.com has been reported as spam.
However, the crosslinking tactics alone used are consistent with those
of other sites that -are- considered spam and may have been reported
as such. If Google should target those characteristics based on spam
reports for other sites, then it is not surprising that
homeboundmortgage would be caught by the same adjustments to the
algorithm or filters, and be dropped from the index as well.


Over Optimization Penalty
----------------------------------------------------------------------

This summer, a new term has emerged, Over Optimization Penalty, which
refers to the tweaks most SEO make to pages to "fine tune" them to the
top of their keyword categories. Page length, Keyword Density, bold,
underline, italic, H1 formulas, link text, and various other small
elements are manipulated until the perfect balance is struck, and the
SEO'd site contains just a small bit more than the other sites in the
top 10. It can be a full time job keeping a site at that level with
these small changes. Google has lowered the bar, now effectively
saying that high keyword densities, and many of the other SEO tweaks
are evidence of too much SEO. Filters are created, and such sites drop
in the rankings. Sites that have been playing too close to the edge
are penalized.

Homeboundmortgage.com uses a number of these tactics. Keyword density
in particular has been manipulated. ASCII characters are used to break
up recognizable words in the source code, further enhancing specific
keyword density and page content focus. This is considered "hidden
text" and needs to be cleaned up completely. No text manipulation.
Natural language intended for users.


ALT Text
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Much of the bottom navigation on all site pages is accomplished via
text images, utilizing keywords in ALT text. Especially "©2004
homebound Mortgage, Inc. 800-420-7434 Fax: 802-264-9275". Not only
does this contribute to ideal word count, it shows keyword stuffing in
the ALT tags. To clean up, switch to clear text navigation.


Old Link Exchanges
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Pages stored in the Internet Archive indicate the site was once
involved in some questionable link exchanges, for example, files like
Family_Links.htm.


Duplicate Content
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I found just a couple of pages of duplicate content. The About Us and
Sitemap, for instance. All duplicate pages should be eliminated. Link
just one page consistently.


Licenses Page
----------------------------------------------------------------------

The state licenses page is gravely out of date. License numbers need
to be updated. 8 out of the 9 states I checked were outdated.


Now, once all these changes have been made, what to do. You can, of
course, try writing help@google.com. "We do not make any guarantees
about if or when we will re-include your site."

Webmaster Guidelines | Not Listed
://www.google.com/webmasters/2.html

I personally know of only two sites that have been re-included after
manual removal. In each case, the site was crawled regularly, but was
not included in the index for over six months. I don't know the
specific reason for this, of course, but I would imagine it might be
some sort of a testing period. How strong is a webmaster's resolve to
walk the straight and narrow, despite lack of indexing.

So, assuming best case, you might be looking at six months or more
before your sites are re-included in the index. Once delisted, I also
imagine such sites must stay squeaky clean. An SE might forgive once,
but seldom twice.


Looking Ahead
----------------------------------------------------------------------

VERY worst case, permanent exclusion from organic results on Google.
Recovery basically means starting over, nearly from scratch.

Plan a 12-18 month Overture or AdWords campaign, originally targeting
the current website. Pick more specifically targeted keyword phrase
initially, to keep costs down. I realize this is a high priced keyword
neighborhood. You may need to create new, perfectly targeted landing
pages to lower acquisition costs.

Select a new domain name. Without reinclusion within a short period of
time, the current name will continue to lose value daily.

Build a new, clean site under the new domain name. Text must be fresh,
not a duplicate of the current domain. Do not duplicate site
structure, filenames, or other elements that could link it to the
banned name.

Gradually add organic links. Expect it to take 6-12 months in order to
acquire 1,000 related links. Continue to link to related sites over
the next 18 months. Grow the site adding one new page (250-500 words)
each day.

As the new site rises in the SERPs gradually switch the PPC traffic to
the new site, and retire the current site completely. At any point in
the process, if the current (old) site should reappear, it shouldn't
be an undue amount of work to gradually retarget the newly acquired
links to the older site. Encourage natural link text by those linking
to the site.

I'm afraid that the days of SEO are far away for both the current
HomeboundMortgage.com and any replacement. If you're going to optimize
at all, test first in a safely isolated site. You're not going to be
able to push the optimization envelope for quite some time. The key to
long-term survival and growth will need to be the "content is king"
model.


The only bright news in the picture is that the site isn't being
meta-hijacked, at least not under any of the keywords I've tried (your
homepage META keywords list.) Google itself wouldn't encourage such a
practice, and in fact will likely be glad to deal with any such
offenders under the DMCA.

Sources:

Crosslink Detection
http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum3/25568.htm

Crosslinking Penalty
http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum3/23890-2-10.htm

Sandbox Effect
http://www.promodo.com/web-site-promotion-articles-en/about-google-search-engine-promotion-tips_page1_seo60.html

Innocent Interlinking of Sites
http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum3/25564.htm

A Statistical and Experimental Analysis of Google's Florida Update
http://www.linksecrets.com/pub/florida-report.html

Speculation About August Changes
http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum3/25251.htm


I hope you find this material useful. If you have questions about any
of the information or links, please, feel free to ask for
clarification.

I will take a close look at iconocast.com tomorrow, and let you know
of any additional changes.

---larre



Answer Strategy
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I prepared this answer from examination of homeboundmortgage.com, from
personal bookmarks, and well known SEO expert sites. The information
provided is based upon personal and professional experience as a web
developer, working in tandem with search engine optimization
specialists.

Request for Answer Clarification by kamkat-ga on 22 Sep 2004 05:51 PDT
Dear Larre,

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

Will you please prepare the same for www.iconocast.com?  Please!
I reallty appreciate your help. 

Thank you.

Request for Answer Clarification by kamkat-ga on 22 Sep 2004 05:55 PDT
One more thing,


Will the sites regain their rank, if the problem is resolved?

Clarification of Answer by larre-ga on 22 Sep 2004 09:20 PDT
I'm working on iconocast.com now.

>Will the sites regain their rank, if the problem is resolved?

I don't have an exact answer. If the sites were manually removed, the
only recourse is through help@google.com. There's certainly no
guarantee, and no certainty that Google will reconsider. I can't
possibly know.

If the sites were dropped due to algorithm changes, then its possible
that they'd come back after cleanup. However, their supporting network
of links has, at the very least, been devalued. That alone will cause
a change in PR, even if cleanup makes them eligible for reinclusion.
Site owners report that in these cases, cleaned up sites have come
back into the results in 2-3, to six months. Getting back to the top
would take additional time, and new, unblemished linking.

Two schools of thought. After clean-up, resubmit the site, or allow it
to be found via linkage. Though Google states that there's no
oversubmission penalty, most webmasters tend to be leary of such
submission, allowing robots to find the site via linkages. I've never
had a problem with resubmitting URLs that have dropped out for
whatever reason. I take Google at their word that it's harmless, as
long as its a manual resubmission for good reason (for example, page
down when the crawler came through), not submission through a service
or promotion program. One submission is enough. Either way, watch the
site logs. If robots don't show up, it could well be a case of manual
deletion and permanent ban.

---l

Request for Answer Clarification by kamkat-ga on 22 Sep 2004 10:20 PDT
You are correct.  The same thing happened to me for ww.actonvision.com
and www.starmonitor.com.  They were both on first page of Google for
their respected keywords.  After they came back, their ranking were
reduced to 2 and then it got to 3.  The sadest day of my life was
Christmas day 2003 when this happened.
I wonder why on christmas day !

Request for Answer Clarification by kamkat-ga on 22 Sep 2004 10:52 PDT
Hi,

I have a feeling if it was done manually, it can regain its full PR
standing.  Don't you agree?

Clarification of Answer by larre-ga on 22 Sep 2004 11:41 PDT
Iconocast.com


Text Optimization and Keyword Stuffing
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Iconocast offers eMarketing, Internet Advertising, Internet Marketing,
Search Engine Optimization, Search Engine Marketing, Online Branding,
and eMarketing News Services. Some of our sites are represented by
Iconocast logos below:

These links should be more properly labeled simply: Home  Natural is in. 

Thoughout the text, you might want to cut back on the bolding of
keywords. This sort of option used to be just fine. Now, to a small
extent, it can contribute to what is being called Over Optimization.

This term and phenomenon aren't endorsed  by the SE's, in fact it is
refuted by the Google Guy. It's been named by SEOs who've noticed that
sites riding edge of the envelope have still lost traffic and
position. It's a description of what has been observed, with a
somewhat erroneous underlying assumption. Unable to identify a single
item cause for drops in ranking, it was assumed that a threshold value
of a combination of elements might be in play.

In actuality, GoogleGuy said: 

"Has Google applied some sort of OOP or filter to the algorithm since
the Florida update or was the drastic change in SERPs purely the
result of new ranking criteria?"

It's the second one. People post around here about filters, blocking,
penalties, etc. etc. A far better explanation is "things which used to
work before don't receive the same amount of credit now." It's natural
for people who are way out there with their linking strategies or
their page-building strategies to think of a drop as an
over-optimization penalty, but it's more realistic to conclude that
Google is weighting criteria differently so that over-optimized sites
just aren't doing as well now."

http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum3/21994.htm

Definitely a better way to think of it: "Google is weighting criteria
differently, so that over-optimized sites just aren't doing as well
now." The "rules" have changed to favor less optimization, more
natural language, less keyword density, fewer highlights of keywords,
more valid (by W3C standards) use of <Hx> tags. Validation is in.


Duplicate Content
----------------------------------------------------------------------

The first section of most of your pages is identical (Why this
Website? section). You might consider iFraming this content to avoid
any suggestion of impropriety.


Interlinking/Crosslinking
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Iconocast appears to have about 750 sources generating over 15K links.
An average of 20 links per site linked would be considered unusual. As
is, it's likely hundreds of links from several sites, and just one or
two from the rest.  As noted in the analysis above, interlinking is
one of the targeted behaviors receiving negative attention. The
"refinance - mortgage" networks of links is likely suspect. If that
network has been identified and banned, then sites linking to it would
also be in trouble. You should try remove have links removed from
suspect networks.



Beyond these items, it seems that "clean up" has already taken place.
It appears that the difficulties started with the 2004 version of the
site. Changed hands at that point, or earlier in 2003, pre-Florida.
Unfortunately, the years of good rankings and reputation were not
enough to offset what turned out to be a "targeted" linking strategy.


Recovery
---------------------------------------------------------------------

The recovery options are somewhat the same as for homeboundmortgage.
The site needs to be squeaky clean for the near term. The days of easy
SEO are on hiatus. The old-fashioned methods (content for users,
natural linking) are back. Iconocast has quite a backlog of goodwill
links left. Those must be preserved and strengthened, while getting
rid of harmful inbound linking.

Again, there's no guarantee or certainty of getting back into the
Google index. Same procedures, same wait and see.


Sources: 

The August Chronicles
http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum3/25553.htm

Denial of Google Over Optimization Penalty
http://www.markcarey.com/googleguy-says/archives/discuss-denial-of-google-over-optimization-penalty.html

Future of SEO
http://list.audettemedia.com/SCRIPTS/WA.EXE?A2=ind0408&L=led&D=1&T=0&H=1&O=D&F=&S=&P=266

Again, if you have questions, please, feel free to ask.

---larre


---------------------------------------------------------------------

> I have a feeling if it was done manually, it can regain its full
  PR standing.  Don't you agree?


I don't know. I suppose it will depend on how much effort is put into
rescuing the site's reputation. I have no idea of a time frame. Unless
it's "just" an algo change, you're probably in for a minimum of a
rough six months or more.

I have every hope that correction and repentence will prove to be
effective, but I don't know how forgiving Google will be. They tend to
be fair and ethical. That may well work in your favor.

---l

Request for Answer Clarification by kamkat-ga on 22 Sep 2004 12:36 PDT
Mr. Larre,

I know Google might not like this, but you are very good at what you
do.  I like to have contact with you in case another site might
benefit from your useful analysis.  I posted at least 10 questions on
Google until I found you or your friens refer you.  Do you really
think it would be unethical if you contacted me outside Google answer?

Clarification of Answer by larre-ga on 22 Sep 2004 12:52 PDT
I'm glad you're finding the analysis useful. 

You may direct questions to a specific researcher by including their
researcher handle in the title or body of a question. Such requests
are honored by other researchers, and the requested researcher is
notified quickly that a question has been directed to their attention.
I will be glad to assist as needed.

---l

Request for Answer Clarification by kamkat-ga on 22 Sep 2004 13:11 PDT
There is no way we can contact outside Google then?  What if you left this job.

Anyways.  I appreciate the help.  :)

I will close the question if you like.

Clarification of Answer by larre-ga on 22 Sep 2004 13:51 PDT
I enjoy my affiliation with Google Answers, and have no plans to leave
at present. I don't wish to place this part of my income at risk. My
contract restricts outside communication -- I play by the rules. I'll
be glad to assist you onsite, whenever possible.

Its very flattering to know my services are useful to you. 

---l

Request for Answer Clarification by kamkat-ga on 22 Sep 2004 14:33 PDT
I like to thank you again.  You have been great help and I really appreciate it.

On behalf of HomeBoundMortgage, I also like to thank you.  They are very pleased.

Corey

Clarification of Answer by larre-ga on 26 Sep 2004 09:27 PDT
I have seen your latest question, and will begin assessing the sites
you've listed. As soon as the question becomes Researcher accessable,
I'll post clarification there.

---l
kamkat-ga rated this answer:5 out of 5 stars and gave an additional tip of: $100.00
This member is very knowledgable.  Keep him.

Comments  
Subject: Re: Can someone do an analysis on my site and tell me why Iconocast was manually
From: larre-ga on 22 Sep 2004 15:42 PDT
 
Thank you very much!
Subject: Re: Can someone do an analysis on my site and tell me why Iconocast was manually rem
From: kamkat-ga on 22 Sep 2004 20:39 PDT
 
You are most welcome.  I appreciate all your efforts and I wish you
the best and most success in your future and also practices.

Corey

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