What breed or breeds is our dog?

More pictures, video clips, or behavior descriptions available on
request.  He is about 80# and chases rabbits, trees squirrels, and
will repeatedly pin down an angry alley cat.  He is a rescue from the
Wisconsin Dells area.

Pictures:
http://www.thejavahouse.com/denzel/

Many qualified individuals (trainer, vet, dog park users, breeders)
speculate widely but none of them can substansiate a claim.

Thanks, Erik

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Clarification of Question by brakatak-ga on 07 Oct 2004 15:09 PDT

I agree it is impossible to know the breed for sure.  Perhaps someone
could comment on his features, instead.

What about him would imply he is a terrier?
What is a sight-hound and do they exhibit characteristcs similar to
terriers? (Could he be a sight-hound (like Ridgeback) instead of
terrier)
What makes a Kemmer cur a subset of Mountain Curs, a terrier breed?
What breeds could create the gay tail?  His sister had a docked tail. 
I assume she was born with it.
What breed(s) does his head, face, and ear shape imply? (Pit bull terrier?)
What breed(s) does his short, red coat imply? (Ridgeback, for one)

Thanks
Erik

He's a lovely dog, for sure.

But I bet only his mother could say who his father was and she may be only guessing.

<Possibly a Rhodesian Ridgeback also known as the African Lion Hound.
It was originally bred to hunt lions. Judging by the curly tail, it is
possibly crossed with another breed. The following links have photos
of the breed.
American kennel club.
http://www.akc.org/breeds/recbreeds/rhodrdge.cfm
Rhodesian Ridgeback Club of Ireland.
http://indigo.ie/~dboyd/>

<Hope this helps.>

His girlfriends are Rhodesian Ridgebacks.  This is guessed often
probably because of his short coat and reddish color.  His coat is not
as short and velvety as the RRs.  The head shape is a bit different:
ours has more of a dome and lacks the furrowed brow of the RRs.  Our
dog is much stockier and yet a faster runner.  He is broader in the
chest and bulkier in the neck; small ears with more control.  Less
graceful than the RRs but also less... opinionated.

I have wondered if he is a Kemmer Stock Mountain Cur or "Kemmer Cur"? 
Many similar, unique characteristics.  Breeders say 'could be.'  There
are dogs at the dog park that look extremely similar to our dog, minus
the curled tail, so I don't think he is too diverse.

I would be content with a couple substansiated guesses.  I have heard
many guesses, including:

Ridgeback, Pit Bull, Pinscher, Lab, Retriever, Chow, Shar Pei, Akita,
Cur, Staffordshire, Redbone, etc..... the curled tail gets people
guessing.  A couple terriers on the list -- how terrier does he look?

Beautiful dog for sure. I'm guessing that he is a mutt though....
As previously said, only his mother knows for sure :)

Steph53

I concur he very well could be a plain-old mutt, but I'm of the
opinion that his reddish coat is a recessive trait.  Hence, I believe
he is not more than a generation or two away from a purebred
SOMETHING.  Is this totally unfounded?

I guess that there is no scientific way of determining a dog's
credentials when it's been abandoned by its parents.

This leaves you to decide.

So, shall we agree that it's a curly-tailed RR?

This is very rare.

Hi brakatak,

First of all, he's a handsome dog!  

Some breeds have what is called a "Gay Tail" - A tail carried above
the horizontal level of the back.  And some of those dogs have a curly
gay tail.

For ex., Basenji, Akita, and Cannan's have gay tails.
http://www.itb.it/canaan/icdca/Standard/Tail.html

I do see a bit of Shar Pei and Rhodesian Ridgeback in his looks, and
from your description on chasing he probably does have a bit of
terrier in him.

Whatever he is, he's beautiful and you are to be commended for taking
him in as a rescue.  :)


Best regards,
tlspiegel

Substantiating a claim is, I think, not possible. 

My husband and I are volunteers with an animal adoption organization.
Often there is speculation about the possible ancestry of dogs that
are offered for adoption. I was told by a veterinarian that
determining a dog's breed (or mixture of breeds) with any certainty is
not possible by scientific means. It's educated guesswork at best. I
have seen many mixed-breed puppies whose origins were disputed by
experts.

Erik-
It seems that your dog?s behavior mimics a terrier?s behavior in terms
of his prey drive but I disagree with that statement (unless he is
American Staffordshire Terrier or a Pitbull) due to what you stated
about his less-opinionated temperament then his Rhodesian dog friends.
Terriers are often exhibit obstinate behaviors and are independent
thinkers. I do believe that he is too pure looking to be more than one
generation from either one or two pure breeds. My guess would
definitely be a Rhodesian for one of the two breeds mixed to create
him. One question that I have is about your dog?s coloring. From the
pictures, it is clear that he is red, but is he wheaten? Meaning, does
he have the agouti patterning of different color bands throughout his
coat or is it a pure red? Does he have any purple pigmentation in his
mouth? Without it, I doubt he is a Shar Pei but judging from his depth
of chest and prey behaviors, I definitely think that he is definitely
part sight-hound.

In terms of him being a Kemmer Cur or any other Mountain Cur, which is
doubtful. First of all, a Kemmer Cur is just a line (family) of dogs
that were selected and bred by a man named Robert Cur. He brought
together specially selected curs that represented the best in his
opinion and line bred them together to create a consistent type or
look to his dogs. This is actually what all purebred show breeders are
doing within their breeds, selectively breeding dogs toward their goal
of the ?perfect? dog, be it Pugs, or Chihuahuas, or Great Danes. The
different types are just not renamed after each breeder, rather, they
are identified by their given kennel names such as ?Rocky Mountain?s
Gold Rush.? ?Rocky Mountain? being the kennel name (Rocky Mountain
Kennel) or prefix, then ?Gold Rush? as the individual dog?s name. This
being said, it is really a rare breed (if you want to call it that)
and not very likely to be part of your dog?s ancestry.

Gay tails, as well as naturally short or docked tails, can be seen in
a number of breeds including the Pit bull and the Staffordshire
Terriers (which are separate breeds). They are considered faults by
people in conformation showing but are seen in many of the thousands
of pet dogs that come from backyard breeders. Since the Pit bull is
not an AKC recognized breed, there is very little consistency in breed
type or what it looks like.

With all of that being taken into consideration, I believe your dog to
be a mix of a Rhodesian Ridgeback and a Pit bull Terrier. Since there
is a wide variety in what many claim to be Pit bulls, it explains his
narrower face, pricked ears, and gay tail. Also both Staffies and Pit
bulls have shorter, harsher coats than Rhodesians and since the red
coat is dominant in the RR, it explains why your dog is the color that
he is.



No matter what, you have a very beautiful dog and I think it is
wonderful that you rescued him.

Chilys

Wonderful dog... does it really matter what his breed is? 
He looks like a pit Bull Cross... I've had Pit Bull's for 23 years and
they are great dogs. Some photos on my site of my dogs... Have a look.
http://www.preservation-publishing.com