Can anyone provide a logical argument, based on fact and hard
evidence, that God really exists?

The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints offers hard evidence,
which would likely pass muster in most court rooms if the topic was
other than God. On April 6, 1820 both God and Jesus appeared to a 15
year old boy named Joseph Smith near Palmyra, New York. Joseph asked
which Church he should join and Jesus told him to join none of them
and some other things. Over the next 26 years more than a dozen
persons were visited by heavenly messengers in groups as large as 8
persons as part of the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. None
 of these people ever denighed the visions, even though most of them
experienced a period of years when they were angry at Joseph Smith. 
My tentative conclusion is: Proof of the power of extra terestials,
Satan, or such like, if not God, as such a tight conspiracy is
impossible without supernatural power. Personally I believe Joseph
Smith and the other experiencers are telling God's truth. For more
details:   http://lds.org

I'm curious?  How come Father Christmas gets five bucks more than God...?

Beause God's much easier to prove. ;)

GOD forbid <Pun intended> -- A debate of god... You should get a lot
of opinions on this one.(opinions are like ....YEA)

Hard evidence... Yes there is but it is more than 20.00 for me to set
foot into this arena.

Food for thought... 

White man/woman, Black man/woman, Asian man/woman, ETC (you get the
picture) are all lined up in a row. NOW out of the bible (God created
man(also meaning women) in his own image. How can this be so?

Answer: They all are identical there is no difference (takes some
thought to move past the physical side(Physical not being skin))

Thanks

Can anyone provide a logical argument, based on fact and hard
evidence, that God really exists?

No.

Any such argument would be based entirely on anecdotal evidence, such
as the stories about Joseph Smith.

Plenty of hard, factual evidence can be found to support events in the
Bible, but that isn't the same thing.

Hey ... another $10!

Was that an Act of God?

If so, THAT proves that God exists.

Well, almost ... It could, of course, have been Father Christmas.

Sir Isaac Newton made a huge impact on theoretical astronomy. He
defined the laws of motion and universal gravitation which he used to
predict precisely the motions of stars, and the planets around the
sun.

Neither Newton nor we has seen the gravitational force. But every one
of us has seen the effect of it.

So, we as human beings can?t see certain things. But we need to believe in them. 
If we don?t believe in certain things, then we can?t describe the rest
of the things.

Thanks

We all know that there is no evidence that god exists, so she/he/it
does not, but one day she/he/it may. We will have to wait to find out

WITHOUT THE BIBLE, WE HAVE NOTHING
PSALM 19;1..THE HEAVENS ARE DECLARING THE GLORY OF GOD; AND OF THE
WORK OF HIS HANDS THE EXPANSE IS TELLING.
PSALM 104;24..HOW MANY YOUR WORKS ARE O JEHOVAH!, ALL OF THEM IN
WISDOM YOU HAVE MADE. THE EARTH IS FULL OF YOUR PRODUCTIONS. [
JEHOVAH=PSALM83;18, EXODUS 6;3]
ROMANS 1;20..HIS INVISIBLE QUALITIES ARE CLEARLY SEEN FROM THE WORLDS
CREATION ONWARD, BECAUSE THEY ARE PERCEIVED BY THE THINGS MADE.
HEBREWS 3;4..OF COURSE, EVERY HOUSE IS CONSTRUCTED BY SOMEONE, BUT HE
THAT CONSTRUCTED ALL THINGS IS GOD,
WE DO NOT HAVE ANY OTHER "TEXT BOOK" TO EXPLAIN WHAT WE SEE.

I seem to remember that Yuri Gargarin, the first man in space, tried
to make contact without success.

Of course, Yuri could only speak Russian and the Communists had
previously opted for atheism ... Factors that may have inhibited an
historic meeting.

I suggest that we now ask a reliable GA Researcher to go up and investigate.

Wow! Think of the publicity!

Please remember, I thought of this first.

Dntl --- Adding $$ will not answer your question.. Even the GOOGLE
GODS will not give you what you are looking for. Yes there is a god
and I will not debate this with anyone and there is not a religion who
has got this correct yet... BUT I am not knocking anyones religion.
Everyone must have their own belief and has the right to practice what
they choose. The answer is truly INSIDE you. To your real question you
have nothing to worry about your loved ones have and will be taken
care of and you will TOO.

DOGMA - Movie on DVD - This movie has nothing to do with what I speak
of however it takes the time to let you laugh at religion as a whole.
Great movie. Check it out if you have not seen it ... Ben Affleck,
Matt Damon, Salma Hayek, Chris Rock +++ More ... Too funny to pass
up....

Thanks again
Steve

dear Wifi. If the answer to all the worlds problems came from INSIDE
us, surely there have existed enough good men down the centuries to
have solved all our problems. But the last time I looked, we are still
in trouble up to our necks. The few good guys are completely swamped
by the not-so-good. Thats why the Bible says not to put your trust in
earthling man [ Psalm 146;3,4] because he, after 70 or 80 years,
simply dies, and his good intentions die with him. Just like sitting
for an exam, there can be only ONE correct answer. Respectfully, Pug.

Oh dear Pug

Where do you source your info?  

[QUOTE]
The Bible says not to put your trust in earthling man [ Psalm 146;3,4]
because he, after 70 or 80 years, simply dies, and his good intentions
die with him. Just like sitting for an exam, there can be only ONE
correct answer.
[QUOTE]

I have a neigbour who is 105 years old and she is LIVING PROOF that
earthlings do not die after 70 or 80 years.

Also, the Good Book itself names several earthlings including Adam,
Methuselah and Noah who provide FURTHER PROOF that earthlings do not
die after 70 or 80 years.

Am I right?

Or am I right?

Bryan Everright the Just

<Grin> See knew this one question would cause debate... When you
question ones religion or their beliefs it tends to hit close to home.

Now the bible .. The good book.. 1 of many that can differ from
religion to religion and can be interpreted by man in many different
ways. The bible however written by man in support from the words of
god. Is the bible correct in all instances? Now if you choose to
practice what you preach and use the bible it exact terms written then
you are sinning on a daily basis and if you have a wife she would
castrate you for how you speak to her and what she should be treated
as.

Aspects are true within, but do not just rely on a book for your faith
as I said the answer is inside you and when you are dead the answer is
not(or lying on a table with machines keeping you alive you are
gone)<-- For one of the questions at hand.

How do you believe you appear in "Heaven" ? What shape do you think
you take? Is there a shape involved? Bright light ? What do you think
that light is?

I never said the answer to the worlds problems are inside us. The
answer of "Is there a god" that is the answer that is there. I can
assure you the answer to the worlds problems is not in us as this
world will NOT be better from this point out.

I know many can say with that attitude the world will not get better.
Just do you part to make it right for those around you and thus
enhancing everyone you encounter ---- Here is the BUT as a whole the
world is in decline.

Thanks again
Steve

Hi Wifi/Steve. Your quote [ 2 Oct.`04 5.25 PDT] " the answer is truly
inside you". We both have the same desire to try and do what God
wants. He has already told us we are not capable of putting one foot
in front of another.
Hi Bryan, looking forward to the snow?. Have a look at Psalms
90;9,10..," For all our days have come to their decline in your fury,
We have finished our years just like a whisper. 10. In themselves the
days of our years are seventy years. And if because of special
mightiness they are eighty years. Yet their insistence is on trouble
and hurtful things. For it must quickly pass by, and away we fly".
Your friend, over 100, is really mighty.

PPS for Bryan.. The reason the early Patriarchs of the Bible lived so
much longer than we do today is that they were actually closer to the
perfection of Adam than we could ever hope to be. But these days we
are generally limited to what the Bible says at Psalms 90;9,10, [
already stated]. cheers. Pug.

Last comment (Well from me anyway)

Keeping it brief ... simple.

Look down at your hand, Good ---   Now move your finger.

Now how did you do that? What truly moved your finger? This can
scientifically be shown.
Was not a muscle nor was it your brain. 
Once what is the only thing that the shell(Body) lacks? brain and
muscles still there. You can say soul but that is not the answer that
I am looking for.

Might need to refer back to eariler comment posted.
Subject: Re: Existence of God 
From: wifi_jaxwireless_com-ga on 01 Oct 2004 10:30 PDT 

Steve

last comment ask
Once what is the only thing that the shell(Body) lacks?

should have been 
Once what is the only thing that the shell(Body)lacks at death?

There are supposed to be 4 logical arguments that prove the existence
of God.  I can only remember one of them, because it made me laught so
hard...

... and it goes a little something like this...

God, by definition, is perfect.  Perfection implies, among other
things, existence.  Therefore God, who is perfect, must exist.

This argument was first put forth by St. Anselm of Canterbury, who was
a medieval theologian.  If you're too stupid to shoot holes in this
logical argument, let me shoot some for you.

1. If being perfect includes existing, then does it not also include
not existing.  Something that both exists and does not exist is a
contradiction, and is therefore logically invalid.
2. If God has not experienced death, then God is not perfect.  If God
is perfect, then God must be dead.
3. Perfect is a subjective term like "good" or "bad".  A perfect human
has flaws, and therefore is not perfect.  However a flawless human is
not perfect because it lacks the flaws that make it human.  The
concept of perfect is therefore invalid, and can not be used in a
logical arguement.

I am an atheist, but the best reason to believe in God I've heard is as follows:

"Do you really want to risk being wrong?"

Hi, bigguy44-ga

Alice, my late Mother-in-Law was a devout churchgoer and she always
worked on the principle that 'she didn't want to take the risk' that
she might finish up in Purgatory, or worse.

Hence, every Sunday, she trudged along to church, sang a few dreary
hymns, enthused about the sermon, etc. etc.

Her husband and daughter never shared her enthusiasm but they were
happy that she found pleasure in such a simple pastime.

There were a lot of worse things that she could have done. (Play darts?)

There has never been any word from Alice since she went to meet her
Maker and as I'm sure that she would have found a way of coming back
just to say, 'I told you so' ... then she evidently drew a blank.

Alice always loved a good gossip and she particularly loved saying 'I told you so'.

Ergo, as Alice has never sent the message 'I told you so', there cannot be a God. 

I trust that everyone will now recognise The Silence of Alice as
rigorous scientific proof.

It is so gratifying that Modern Science has finally solved an issue
that has caused philosophers to ponder for thousands of years.

QED

A  reply for BIGGUY. I do believe in God, but not blindly. Commonsence
dictates that if anyone/thing/personage wants to teach you, they
supply to you all pertinent information you require to know that
personage and their purpose. The information about God and his
ultimate purpose for us is found in the Bible and when you match
scriptures the picture becomes clear. But some people will, due to ,
as the Bible puts it, being "Stiffnecked", never understand it. In
Matthew 13;13, Jesus said "This is why I speak to them by means of
illustrations, because, looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they
hear in vain, neither do they get the sense of it".
Isaiah 55;8,9 indicate how different God is to us and we cannot apply
the same rules to prove anything. Verse 8 says "For the thoughts of
you people are not my thoughts. And verse 9..So my ways are higher
than your ways.
Just as when I proceed to sea, I make sure I am fully equipped for a
safe passage with equipment that is very expensive and that I hope I
never have to use. Its the same for me with the future. The Bible
gives dire warnings of a coming "cleansing" of the earth and only a
small "meek" number of people will survive. And the Bible answers what
will become of the remainder and how their bodies will be disposed of.
Revelation 19;17,21. Your last comment was very good. I do not want to
risk being wrong. Only fools go to sea without a lifejacket.

St. Thomas Aquinas, the greatest theologian the world has even seen,
answered your questions years ago:

Whether the existence of God can be proven: 
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/100202.htm

Does God Exist:
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/100203.htm

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=305129

Here is some fairly sound reason to prove that God exists.

Everything in the world has been caused by some cause. And every cause
was caused. eg. You're mother was concieved therefore she is an effect
of your grandparents act (the cause). You were born from an act
between your parents, therefore you are an effect of a cause which was
caused by your grandparents, who in turn were caused by another cause.
Seeing this we can know that each cause was caused. if we keep going
back tracing all the causes and effects, who Caused the first cause?

The problem with "who caused the first cause" is that there is an
assumption that everything was caused by a person or being.

I think some people confuse atheism and agnosticism, and your question
may be answered with that in mind.  Atheism, the belief that there is
no god, really isn't logical.  Can one prove that there is no god?  Of
course not.  We can't KNOW that there is no god.  You can choose to
believe that, but it's kind of a simple-minded approach to the
question.

Agnosticism, on the other hand, accepts the notion that there may be a
god.  I am a "devout" agnostic.  I don't profess to know what god is,
or claim that god is listening to our prayers.  But... I do accept
that there must be some creative force in the universe that we do not
yet understand.  That doesn't mean that this creative force is
"conscious" in the sense that we are conscious--or that it even knows
we exist.  It's certainly plausible that whatever created the universe
has absolutely no idea that we are all here on this tiny planet.

So... if one accepts that notion that "god" is simply the "creative
force" in the universe, it's not too much of a stretch to believe in
"god."  There must be many things in the universe we do not
understand:  How the universe came to be is obviously one of them. 
But... you'd have to accept that the universe does seem to exist,
right?  If it exists, it must have been created, or must have "come
into existence" somehow.  There must be a reason or force behind that.

So... Perhaps this doesn't offer the "proof" or "facts" that you are
looking for.  On the other hand, this does provide a logical basis for
the belief in some creative force in the universe which we do not
understand (ie:  God).

DFS

The question "does god exist?" depends largely on your definition of
"god". I would say that in western tradition, hard evidence for the
existance of god would destroy the need for "faith" which is one of
the most important sacrament in both the Jewish and Christian
tradition. Therefore, the very proof that god exists could quite
possibly cause the demise of organized religion and our major
religions could never allow that to happen.

Dear All,

God exists and does not exists at the same time.  The proof of this is
beyond reason and our intellect. One can personally find out by
enhancing our intuition. Silence your mind, go deep in meditation, you
will find out.
String theory is approaching this.
Some websites which come to my mind are 
www.nilgiri.org   offers books culled from various religions/classes
on meditation,  etc.
www.vedanta.org   offers books, etc  from various eastern and western philosophies.
Also www.yogananda-srf.org offers classes etc on this.

hope this helps

I doubt you will find a researcher who will put forward an answer
because the question is unanswerable ... however I will put my '2
cents' in.

I believe in a higher power, but I would not call IT God, nor do I
take the Bible as anything more than a great work of fiction.  This
does not make me an atheist.  I give a silent word of thanks for
things such as the weather, life, death ... I sometimes give a prayer
once every 6 months or so as a way of saying thanks (never asking for
anything because I think the days of miracles without human
intervention are gone).

Back to the Bible, people say it is the word of God, written by his
messengers.  People also say the US manufactured the first landing on
the moon and that the CIA had something to do with JFK's death.  These
are all conjecture and conspiracy theories, some with 'factual'
evidence and some without.  Here is what I think, everyone needs to
believe in something.  If you don't, you don't believe that anything's
worth living for.  You may believe in a "God", you may believe in a
higher power - you may only believe in the power of your fellow man.

Everyone wants a scapegoat ... we need someone to blame for our
problems.  No-one wants to admit the truth that it was their fault or
something they did or maybe they got passed over for the job just
because there was a better applicant, not because they were unfit for
the position.  We all want someone to blame and give all our cares to.
 Not that there's anything wrong with that.  But if we're talking
about the 'factual' existence of "God" then it should be about more
than just a scapegoat.

The Bible - if you add up all the days in the Bible, from the
beginning of time (with God created this, that and the other through
the Garden of Eden and out the other end post-Jesus) you find that
*apparently* the Earth, or human civilization to be more precise is
only a few thousand years old ... not millions as has been proven by
scientists.

Also, NOWHERE in the Bible is mentioned the presence of Dinosaurs. 
Nowhere at all, not at the time of Adam and Eve and not at the time of
Jesus.  You'd think that would be 'bookworthy' and fossils HAVE been
found around the sites that are spoken about in the Bible (in case you
want to argue about it).  Now, we can forget about dinosaurs where
Jesus was concerned because BC and AD are 2 different times, and
depending on which form of religion you follow, the "Bible" will be
different (for instance the Quran).

If the "Bible" is the exact word of "GoD", why do people feel the need
to interpret it and give their own opinion about what they "think" GoD
meant by something that's in it.  This is why there have been so many
breakaway religions.  People argue about what GoD "meant" with
something he said!  If he is "God" then the Bible should be taken
EXACTLY WORD FOR WORD!  You can't say "what i think God meant by that
comment was..." because it's not what he SAID with that comment.  What
he SAID is in the Bible, word for word.

You want to have your own opinion, that's fine.  That's what free will
is for and freedom of speech.  But you cannot call yourself a believer
in the "one and only God" if you have a different version in your mind
about what he meant compared to someone else, even if you are in the
same religion!  It makes no sense, you either believe EVERYTHING in
the Bible word for word, or you cannot wholeheartedly believe that the
"majority" of it makes sense, sounds good so therefore must be true.

For all we know, it could have been a post-Nostradamus that wrote the
Bible, a prophet; a poet; a philosopher like Homer or Plato; a
homeless person trying to make some money.  The fact of the matter is
that we shouldn't be making a PROFIT out of it.  So take away the $$$
for this question since you have no intention of giving it anyway
because nobody will ever be satisfied unless they see it for
themselves and have witnesses and video footage and photos and
everything else.

There will always be cynics, critics and non-believers just because
there are so many flaws in everything that's been stated to date.  Was
there someone in the past named Jesus, quite possibly.  Did he have
visions, maybe; or maybe he had a split-personality disorder, or early
signs of schizophrenia.  Nobody can say for sure because nobody was
there and is still alive today!

After reading this, you may wonder how I can slander these religions
and still believe in a 'higher power'.  It's because I believe in what
I know, the facts that I have read and my own personal thoughts.  The
scientific proof is that Dinosaurs existed.  The scientific proof is
that there were past civilizations with a lot more knowledge of
certain things (such as the calendar, phases of the moon, etc) than we
knew up until a few hundred years ago.  The scientific proof is that
if any of the gases that make up our atmosphere was 1 or 2% in either
direction, human life would not be sustainable.

I believe in a 'higher power'; whether it was here to help us get
started or is still 'around' observing is another question and not one
I will enter in to today.  I could talk about this issue all
afternoon, however I think I've made my point so will bid you all
adieu and be on my merry way.

Cheers,
sKarnage

In all fairness, the question is asking for someone to provide a
logical argument that God exists, not to prove that God exists.  A
sufficiently logical argument (with proper supporting evidence) would
answer the question.

The only answer to:

'Can anyone provide a logical argument, based on fact and hard
evidence, that God really exists?'

Must be NO!

The fact that this question has been dangling unanswered for over
three weeks now provides a concrete, steel-hardened, completely
logical argument that God does not exist.

God was invented by Man for Man.

End of Story!

Bhagavad Gita 4.11  God states 
ye yath? m?m? prapadyante

t?m?s tathaiva bhaj?my aham

mama vartm?nuvartante

manus?y?h? p?rtha sarva?ah?

'As all surrender unto Me, I reward them accordingly. Everyone follows
My path in all respects, O son of Pr?th?'  In the Vedic religion Gos
is know as Adhoshaja: one who is not percieved by the blunt material
mind and sences.  If He were forced to be made a fact by the process
of logic the his supreme potency of being able to concile his
existence to those envious of him would be diminished.  Logic is a
tool and can be used either to prove of disprove the same thing.  I
can think of numerous arguments in favor of God's existence, but such
as the watch and the watchmaker, but one must ultimately understand
that God is not subject to be relealed by our tiny minds hare rkishna
http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/4/11/en

The question is centureis old question and gave rise to many
religions. In recent times it was answered and proved by a great saint
in India called Ramakrihsna Parmahamsa. The question was asked by a
man called Narendra later became Swami Vivekananda who gave a lecture
in the World Religions Summit and was appreciated by many. For further
information you may contact me.

Skarnage:
"*apparently* the Earth, or human civilization to be more precise is
only a few thousand years old ... not millions as has been proven by
scientists."

The dating methods that scientists use have changed many times over
the years and I am certain they will continue to change.  The reasons
they change vary, but the bulk of them are because they find instances
where they are contradictory or reasons why they simply aren't
correct.  Perhaps more research into dating techniques will lead you
to have less faith in science and their millions of years.

"Also, NOWHERE in the Bible is mentioned the presence of Dinosaurs. 
Nowhere at all, not at the time of Adam and Eve and not at the time of
Jesus."

"Behold now, Behemoth, F444 which I R1108 made as F445 well as you; He
eats grass like an ox. 16 "Behold now, his strength in his loins And
his power in the muscles of his belly. 17 "He bends his tail like a
cedar; The sinews of his thighs are knit together. 18 "His bones are
tubes of bronze; His limbs F446 are like bars of iron.  --Job 40:15-18

That doesn't sound like an elephant to me... perhaps much more like
a... heaven forbid... dinasour.  Could it be that humans and dinosaurs
lived together?
There is much evidence for a worldwide flood.  Whether or not the
story of Noah is true, this flood (changing the climate drastically)
could have wiped out many species including dinosaurs even if they
survived the flood itself.

I highly recomend http://answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp before
jumping on the "scientific" bandwagon that is so popular these days. 
See what some well educated scientific researchers have to say about
history and science.

It is interesting that people who seem to be coherent in their
thoughts and clear/error-free in their writing - are all humble and
conscious of their inability to definitely prove the existence of God.
 And vice-versa!

It is also interesting to read the comments from the "believers" who
put the discovery, proof and application of scientific findings on a
same footing as "religious belief/faith" etc.  Here's a suggestion -
how about jumping off a cliff to prove to yourself and everyone else
that the laws of Gravity are nothing but a commonly agreed
misconception by those believing in science.  And that might just give
you the definite proof of the type of God you are looking for.

Ok joking apart ... imo ..

God (at least as referred to in these "religious" discussions), is a
concept created by thinking humans to foster harmony, justice, peace
and well-being (not just for humans but for all earthly entities) on
this one and only planet that we have.  It is essentially a guiding
concept - one that deserves ongoing refinement based on our increasing
knowledge, maturity and circumstances.

Fighting over a version of this concept  ("mine is better than yours")
while forgetting the reason for it's being and losing sight of it's
goals is sadly evidence that we are still rather primitive beings. 
Interestingly, this phenomenon appears to be more common among those
who desire, need and fervently adopt a simplistic answer and who
refuse (or lack the ability) to expand their thinking powers.

Simply repeating/quoting assertions made by some individuals thousands
of years ago and documented in a "Book" does not make it a more
convincing or a more valid argument.  We can continue to challenge
Evolution and other findings that dispute our ancient notions
-(perhaps well-meant but dated) - but are we, in this day and age,
also challenging that the earth revolves around the sun?  Seen/enjoyed
an eclipse lately?!

We could go on - but I have to say that it appears that people who are
so convinced of an infinite, almighty God are the same ones who love
the idea of keeping our minds and understanding finite and limited and
stuck to a certain point in time.  Thus I would suggest that we use
our thinking powers to separate the underlying principles that
represent enduring wisdom (explicitly mentioned or hinted in these
books) from the tactical advice and surrounding details of the people,
places, customs, natural phenomena etc. (intriguing and entertaining
perhaps but ultimately irrelevant).

I write this sadly on a day when half of the "most advanced nation"
show their simplistic preference for proud certainty (without
supporting inquiry or facts) rather than the attitude of humility,
introspection and self-criticism which leads to better understanding,
growth and ultimately peaceful coexistence.

Cheers all.

P.S.  I particularly liked the cogent, thoughtful answer of dfs-ga.

For what it's worth, I answered this same question (and received a
5-star rating for it) in
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=94562

In following up such a wonderful question as this, and also commenting
on question 94562, one of the commenters queried the fact that Jesus
ever existed. He should read Josephus, the Roman historian, and his
record of the world he lived in. Josephus actually mentions Jesus in
one short paragraph, as being an influence during the fifteenth year
of the reign of the Roman Emperor Tiberias. From this fact it is
possible to date the year Jesus was executed, 33 C.E.

Hmmmmm

But did Josephus ever exist?

It makes one wonder ... Does it not?

http://www.400monkeys.com/God/index.html

THE OFFICIAL GOD FAQ

I've checked the site linked by Kyrcant ...

But how can we be sure it's not the work of The Devil?

Actually, I've since discovered that God does _not_ exist...because
the U.S. Legal system won't allow it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/americas/2318291.stm

Which is the Superior Court:

A Court of God?

or

A Court of Earthlings? 

And who decides?

i just want to say that the bible(book of god) was not made by god but
by man meaning it dosent mean that everything in it can be true and
from a mans memory. every quote used the in bible is qure its not
accurate

What about the Ten Commandments?  Weren't they carved in stone by God himself?

In the beginning?in the vast open nothingless that was, all existence
began.  How and why it came into being is the curiosity of the ages
but no one can honestly explain that seminal event without conceding,
however much people want to believe they themselves are in control,
that just as something cannot come from nothing, just as a product
inevitably must contain aspects of that which produced it, we too and
everything we know must have come from a something which contains more
than we not only are but more than we are aware of as well.  It is our
inescapable reality, an inescapable conclusion, no matter how much
people, in their willfulness, would have it be otherwise.  God.

The Source of everything must have qualities in common with that
everything which it produced.  Not only the hard or soft, light or
dark, but every single aspect of everything that is.  That must
therefore also include what we see as love and hate, good and evil,
imagination, and all of the aspects of all.  It must however be kept
in mind that our personal existence as we know it is limited.  Our
bodies are limited; our minds are limited and, therefore, our
understanding must be limited as well.  We are obviously less than
that which we can even see.  It is then an easy step to conclude that
we are also less than the Source of all that is.  The lesser cannot
encompass the greater.  That is simple.  What is not so simple is to
gain a glimpse of that which is beyond the grasp of humanity.

We tend to define everything by how it affects us personally.  If it
gives us pleasure or makes our lives easier in some way, we tend to
define that as ?good.?  If we derive displeasure or difficulty, we
call it ?bad? or even ?evil.?  People obviously have free will. 
Whether we are predictable or whether our understanding of space and
time is infantile do not change that.  We choose all the time.  At the
same time, whether as a result of the choices of others or by pure
chance, ?bad? things happen.  The frustrating thing is that we cannot
gain the perspective necessary to fully comprehend in the moment that
which we experience.  It may be emotionally comforting to deny the
existence of God in painful times.  People will apply to their
relationship with God the strategies they have learned to cope with
each other and the circumstances of their immediate existence. They
will bargain and threaten and pout in futile attempts to control and
because those actions have given them comfort under different
circumstances in their past.  However, while it is understandable, it
is as honestly rational as yelling at the wind to cease or change
direction.

For as long as people have looked around and wondered, they have
always come to some of the same conclusions.  We are limited:Existence
is not.  We are small:Existence is not.  Everything we are is but a
small part of what is.  It had to come from somewhere.

We can also know that our Creator loves us.  Just because life isn?t
one party after another, and even though bad things surely do occur,
it isn?t reasonable to infer indifference or hostility.  If our
creator was hostile or even just indifferent to us, we would never
know love or joy.  Love and joy were not invented by humanity and they
are not incidental.  Humanity may have from time to time taken what is
and manipulated it in pleasing ways but people have not created
anything.  The human condition, as deprived and bereft as it can be,
universally acknowledges the goodness of life.  With all that it is,
people love life.  We cannot understand everything but we can know
some of things with certainty.

There is a God.  God loves you and, at the same time, God is letting
you experience life?stark, uncensored, affected by the actions of
people and nature, and, through it all, you must choose what you do in
the face of an existence you can barely understand.  Most people will
try to ignore the mental distress necessary to even begin to think
about some of these monumental issues that, however weighty, will not
change one bit what they have for breakfast.  You have chosen to
abandon that luxury.  Good.

Your question unavoidably results in a lot of garbage answers from the
I-wish-I-was-god-atheists to the
I-refuse-to-believe-anything-I-can't-see-but-I'm-afraid-I-might-be-wrong-agnostics
as well as the I-believe-what-I-believe-because-that's-what-I-was-taught-and-I-don't-want-to-exercise-independent-thought-crowd.
 However, there is a basic logic none of them can honestly avoid.  I
recommend you read.  Try Packer and Sproul first, then C.S. Lewis and
Aquinas and keep reading.  This is the most important question which
can be asked and you deserve a thorough answer, not the small minded
drivel that appears to predominate.  Good luck.

Dr. William S. Hatcher has put forward a logical proof of God's
existance. You can find it in his book "Love, Power and Justice: the
Dynamics of Authentic Morality", as well as in several earlier works.

http://www.onecountry.org/e102/e10214as.htm

://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozclient&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&q=hatcher+god

http://www.columbiaspectator.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/02/17/4031d9166ab57

I believe that there is a link or doorway that can be opened between
the conscious and unconscious mind. Maybe you could say that "God" is
the unconscious mind? The way to open this doorway can only be found
from within but needs to be inspired by something external.

Many amazing things happen everyday but most of us are blind to them.
If we all looked within ourselves for the answers maybe things could
get better.

The God of the Bible requires faith.  There are MANY logical arguments
for God and MANY logical arguments against God.  You will spend a
lifetime researching the different arguments, trying to make a logical
argument for God and will never succeed without a equal contridicting
argument.  However, if God is real, then nothing should be able to
'prove' His existence and nothing should be able to 'disprove' His
existence.  If you can prove God's existence that would eliminate the
need for faith.  My own journey leads me to believe that if God is
real all the evidence for Him will be weighed equal to the evidence
against him thus requiring FAITH.  Definition of faith:   Belief that
does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

The only TRUE way to prove or disprove God's existence is by trying it
His way.   Living the way He wants you to live, doing the things He
requires you, etc.  If He is real then why would he allow any way
except His own.  We as humans want proof, logical arguments, etc.  God
wants faith.  Why?  Who knows, it's not for us to know yet.

I believe that the earth and all in it is the works of creation.  I
personally have eliminated the idea of evolution, I find it absolutely
ridiculous.  There has to be an Ultimate Force that orchestrates the
harmony in which we exist.  Think of the thousands of functions each
creature has.  every organ, every cell, every sense, works together in
harmony.  Then think how every creature works together on an even
larger scale to perfect things as the food chain. 
evolution.....lol......no

The answer to your question: Yes, there are many logical arguments for
God.  But they will always have a equal weighing counterargument(if
God is real).

Assuming that you also find evolution ridiculous, The real question
you have to ask yourself is "If a Creator does exist, then why would
he/she/it/whatever hide from the common knowledge of the superior
creatures(humans) that dominate the only planet known to have life?"

Since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities?his eternal
power and divine nature?have been clearly seen, being understood from
what has been made, so that men are without excuse ~ Bible - Romans
1:20.

Study the absolutely incomprehensible intriciacies of nature, the
human body, the vast array of species of plants, animals, terra,
molecules, atoms, planets, stars, space, the universe and there can be
only one conclusion - this could not have happened by chance given all
the time of history.  All created things point to an organized - and
creative - creator.  Science has come up with no better or more easily
provable or believable theory.  Sometimes the hardest facts are right
in front of your face, but we refuse to see them as such.

You are asking for scientific fact.  Not to discredit science
completely, it is very valid and useful in most all situations, but Is
it a correct assumption that science is the ultimate authority?  Can
something prove or disprove the existence of something greater?  I'm
not sure you are using the correct measuring stick.

The existence or non-existence of God cannot be proven or disproven
because "logic," "proof" and "evidence" involve acceptance of cause
and effect and the forward flow of time. Logic excludes, for example,
future causes of present effects, but if God exists, "all things are
present to him/her." That is to say, if time (forward-flowing or
otherwise) is part of "creation," it does not bind the "creator." So
if God exists, he/she is beyond causation and therefore beyond logic,
which rests on causation.

Another way of looking at it would be to say that if God is "defined"
(problem there: how "de-fine" the "in-fin-ite") as the prime mover,
i.e., the uncaused cause, you have already stepped outside of logic by
allowing an exception to causation.

Our brains seem to be hard-wired to accept causation and reject
uncaused causes, even one (God). And if we accept one, why stop there?
If there can be one uncaused causer, why not billions, or an infinite
number?

Implicit in the notion of God is the rejection of logic and proof and
evidence as the last word in reality. ("Credo quia absurdum" -- I
believe because it is absurd -- means that it wouldn't be "belief"
(faith) if logic could serve it up.) The notion of God may even
involve, so to speak, the rejection of reality as the last word in
reality. For if God is truly omnipotent, he/she must be the master of
existence, not its minion. To say that God is free to pass in and out
of existence at will, or to exist and not exist "at the same time," is
to affirm his/her omnipotence and embrace nonsense as at least part
and maybe all of the plenum.

Anyone for a good stiff drink?

Sad news ... earlier I advised ...

I have a neigbour who is 105 years old and she is LIVING PROOF that
earthlings do not die after 70 or 80 years.

Alas, she has now died.

But she certainly lived long enough to disprove Pug's contentious remark.

As did Artie Shaw R.I.P.

You have no idea the question you're askiong.  Half of the problem of
proving it is defining God.  There is a handful of religions that
consider God to be the physical sum of things, the sum of human
behvaior, or the sum of the behavior of the universe.  Going by that
definition of God, you're blind to the proof right in front of you.

If that's not the answer you were looking for, why not clarify the
question, such as, can anyone prove the existance of God as the
Christian bible describes it?

uua.org

To say that God does not exsist because all the evidence you have is "
from a book" or "because there no physical evidence" then you have to
say that all the history in the world that has come from a book is not
true. Also what i can say is you need to to your research..... oh but
wait how do we know that the book is factual. I mean its just a book
right? like all the history books in schools today. Well was George
Washington really the first presedent then? what, do we have books to
confirm? If the Bible is not proof enough on God or Jesus then you
have to exclude all history books as well, because if you do your
research, many historians use the Bible for reference to many
different things. I mean come on, we have seperated time( A.D and B.C
) off of God or Jesus. Why, if he is not true, would that have
happened? If there was no record of him whatsoever? Thats just what I
believe. I think if you dont say there is any evidence, you havent
done enough research. There is infact records of a man named Jesus
that lived. No, i'm not going to tell you where i found it, if you
look hard enough you will find it for yourself.

god is harder to prove than aliens.
.....
wait do aliens not exist according to the bible?

if so it'll suck for us when aliens finally allow themselves to be known.

Some observations on the issue.
1. It probably is not possible to prove the existance of god
2. I sometimes reflect on our conceit as human beings. We live our
lives as if our own insignificant lives are at the centre of the
universe whereas in truth in the context of the universe we are no
more than a minute speck on a grain of sand (this earth) within a an
endless sand beach (this universe). We look down what may be almost an
infinite downward progression of life - a cow, a flea, a microbe of
some sort on the flee, atoms making up the flea, electrons, neutrons
and whatever conventional wisdom says is beyond that, but seem to be
incapable for now of being unable to look up the line. Those who say
there is no god are probably the most vain of the vain saying that we
the human race sitting on this grain of sand within a possibly
infinite universe are as far as it goes up the chain. The god
believers are perhaps a bit less conceited suggesting that there is
perhaps one level over us - the divine creator. For my part I can only
say who knows?
3. Having said this, I have experienced things in my life which cause
me to feel that there is at least one layer above us up there
somewhere even though we cannot prove it. I am a person who all his
life has valued intelligence/intellect above all but as I have aged I
have come to the conclusion that the answer to the god question rests
not with the most intelligent people on our little grain of sand but
with those people who have experienced god in their lives, people who
at the risk of causing some mirth amongst the readers might be called
holy men/women.
4. Lastly, if there are two people one of whom believe in a just
loving god and perhaps has created their own vision of that god and
that belief enriches their live and another person who believes that
"this is all there is" so lets eat drink and be merry as we are here
for a good time not a long time and that persons lives his/ker life in
a mist of "I wish there was more to it than this", irrespective of
what the jury may decide in 1000 years, who's life is more fulfilled?
Isn't that the aim of the game?

adamsimon-ga's Scientific Theory of the Existence of God.

You can't use the Bible to prove the existence of God.  That's like
getting the health risks of smoking from a tobacco executive.

God can't be proven in the same vein that scientific theories can't be
proven.  They can be believed by a majority of the world and that is
as far as it can go.  That's why there's Einstein's Theory of
Relativity, not his Law of Relativity.

That said, an overwhelming percentage of the world (far more than the
percentage that believes the average scientific theory) believes in
the existence of heavenly, omnipotent powers.  Of that percentage, an
overwhelming percentage follows the doctrum of a monotheistic religion
or believe in a monotheistic-like force.

While this monotheistic, heavenly, omnipotent power can not be seen,
heard, or touched, it's forces interacting with an enviroment are
visible and tactile.  Many of the interactions may have occured long
ago or are currently occuring, but Newton's First Law of Motion (a
scientific law, more proven than just theory) tells us that at some
point, when there was nothing but inertia, nothing moved.  No wind
blew, no planets rotated, and no force existed.  Scientists claim that
a Big Bang at the beginning of the universe started motion, but failed
to explain how the gaseous particles existed prior to the Big Bang. 
Additionally, a spontaneous explosion of movement with no outside
force, violates Newton's First Law.

Therefore, whether at the beginning of the universe, or as a constant
force throughout time, there has been a consciousness (existing prior
to the creation of the universe) able to start, or start and maintain,
force and will upon the universe.

And we call him Galactus... no wait...

There is enough scientific circumstancial evidence to provide the
basis for a scientific theory on the existence of a pre-creation
initial force which does not conform to the scientific laws and
theories set forth by our most modern scientists.  As an overwhelming
percentage of the world conceive this force to be a single, omnipotent
entity, this force fits the definition of most dictionaries
definitions of "god".

God - A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient
originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith
and worship in monotheistic religions. (American Heritage dictionary)

While the idea of "God" is more of a Christian idea than a worldwide
idea, most religions worship "a god" by whatever name they choose.

He asked for a logical arguement, there is it.

God exists to those who have faith and believe in god?s existence
whole-heartedly and god doesn?t exist for those who don?t believe in
god.  Everything is in the mind and faith.  Priests, bishops popes
devote their lives to god because they believe in god and to them god
exists. (You would have to have complete faith in order to give up
sex).  As for myself, I don?t believe in god because I don?t, simple
as that.  Clergymen whole heartedly devote their life and give up many
things because of faith, that same faith holds true to me, but only in
faith of god not-existing.  I would have to have real faith in god?s
non-existence to give up the possibility of eternity in heaven, would
I not?  So in that case god exists to them and not for me.
   For instance, the visions of being chased by monsters or the walls
coming alive are as real to people who are on LSD or other
hallucinogens as the computer in front of you right now is real to
you.  I read stories of these people cutting their limbs to escape
death or scratching their skin off because they believe ants or
spiders are all over them.  To them those things must have been real,
because if they had the slightest inclination that it wasn?t, they
wouldn?t have done what they did.  Someone witnessing these events
would wonder what?s going on because the ants and spiders don?t exist
to them. Reality is perception.
   It seems to me that "most" people who ask this question are not
really concerned about the existence of god directly, but are actually
concerned about death and the possibility of going to heaven or hell. 
This is in fact the main marketing tool in faith in god and religion. 
(I?ve been in a few religions)  There really is no other reason to ask
if god exists.
  Then again if god doesn?t exist, what happens after death?  If no
god exists and there is no "after life", what happens?  Essentially a
whole universe, galaxy, virtually the existence of everything would
have never existed.  The person who has died would have virtually
never existed because, regardless or their contribution to society,
the individual to whom all this existed, is dead.  Can you imagine
nothingness and never having existed?  I sure can?t, and I will never
have to either, because when (and as many people like to say in their
wills, "If", haha) I die, nothing would have ever existed.
  Well, I know I ended up completely anwering a different question,
but at least the first paragraph gave my humble opinion on the matter.
 I also know that there are many (roughly 99.99% of the population)
people who are much brighter and able to tear my thoughts many
different assholes, but these are just my opinions and I just thought
I'd share them.

Haidesu,
  "Reality is perception" has the fundamental flaw that reality is
reality.  Let's look at your LSD case where the walls are monsters. 
The reality of the walls is that they are walls.  That is reality and
there is no avoiding the fact that reality is truth.  The fact that 1
person thinks (due to an altered state of mind) that they are monsters
does not in fact make them monsters.  The person will not be eater by
a monster, he will not be beaten up by the monsters... however he
might run from a "monster" and run into a real wall causing harm to
himself.  But even in this case, the reality is that he ran into a
wall.

  "I would have to have real faith in god?s non-existence to give up
the possibility of eternity in heaven, would I not?"  In a world where
"reality is perception" that could be the case, but that is not our
world.  You mentioned the priests, bishops, and popes... so I take it
you know something about the Catholic bible:
"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one
comes to the Father except through me.'"
--John 14:6
  Clearly if this is reality (it is obviously perceived by certain
people), then Jesus is the only way to come to God (not only for the
one who perceives it, but for everyone since you said this is
"reality" and the statement says "no one comes" [as opposed to "you
may not come"]).  So either you are incorrect in asserting that
perception is reality, or Jesus is the only way to God and therefore
if you perceive something else then you are wrong... Thus your logic
creates a paradox and cannot be correct.

Like I said, many people will be able to rip my view many assholes. 
To some reality is having to live in a ghetto, and to others, reality
is having everything a person could ever dream of.  But to add to your
statement that the only way to god is jesus.  This is clearly a
christian point of view and it would make sense that all  true
christians have complete faith in this and that this is their reality,
that they can only get to  god through jesus.  But what about other
religions, such as judaism or islam.  Islam acknowledges jesus as an
apostle of god, but they dont believe he is the way to god. They
believe that mohamed is the true apostle and that the only way to god
is him and other requirements.  And then ofcourse there is judaism,
the jewish people jesus was trying to save but they didnt believe in
him.  Again, to them jesus is not the way to god, and if they have
faith in judaism, then that is their reality.  Trying to convince a
jewish person that jesus is the only way to god would be like
convincing them santa clause (the fat, bearded one that rides a flying
sled) really exists.  Their reality is driven by the fact they believe
in judaism and this is evident by them not eating pork, or if they
live in israel they go to the wall, and various other rituals.  This
is the same for any people of various religions, they all have
somthing they believe in and rituals to accompany it.  Now the
question is that who is right, they cant all be right, but they can
all be wrong.  You say the ONLY way to god is jesus, and islam says
the only way to god is through a personal relationship with god and
muhamed and the seven pillars, so what is the case?  All three
religions praise the same god, but they go about it in three different
manners and each says their way is the ONLY way to god.  And then
there is the question of all those people who have been
fortunate/unfortunate enough to never have heard of god.  what about
them?  can they still get to god even if they dont have the slightest
notion of god?  As someone posted earlier on, something cant exist to
a person is they dont have the slightest notion of what that thing is.
  Once again, the point im trying to make is that to christians, god
exists because they believe, same goes for judaism, islam and other
religions.  This is evident because they shape their lives around
their beliefs.  They wouldnt do all those things if they didnt believe
god existed.  But to me and others, god simply doesnt exist because we
dont believe.  There is absolutly nothing wrong with believing in god,
its all preference, like coca-cola or pepsi.  In this case most people
choose god because well, they get to have eternal life, that is one
really good lure.  Well, i hope ive made my thoughts somewhat coherent
so that people will only have to read it 10x to understand my babble.

See, I have to disagree.  I'm not into existential reality is
perception, yada yada, stuff.  That stuff is saved for ethics class
and other social sciences.  Now the study of religions in particular
are fine for that, but to me, the existence of God (by any name) is a
different study than the study of religion.  I don't believe in faith
having real world results and I don't believe in one religion being
more right than another.  I'm personally an agnostic, meaning I'm not
so full of myself I pretend to comprehend something as gigantic as
God's true identity or form or anything :D

"So either you are incorrect in asserting that perception is reality,
or Jesus is the only way to God and therefore if you perceive
something else then you are wrong... Thus your logic creates a paradox
and cannot be correct."

You quote the book of John, I'll quote the book of Webster.  "Never
use a five-dollar word, when a fifty cent word will do."  A paradox IS
correct, despite not seeming to be correct.  So why not think about
this?  You don't know what the word paradox means, but you do know the
true form, identity, and existence of an omnipotent creator of the
universe, granter of eternal life, and lord of the afterlife?  Doesn't
that seem a BIT farfetched?

Now he's right, but he didn't say his whole thought I think. 
Perception is reality, but it's only personal reality.  Yeah, the LSD
runs into a wall, but in his reality, he ran into a monster.  Since
all our experiences, history, and culture form our perception, we each
have a different view.  One person may say that lightning striking a
murderer was divine wrath, another person would say it was lucky,
another karmic retribution, and so on.  It's easier to understand the
valid claim of perception being personal reality than with your
example, although your example still supports his claim.

I make NO claim to know anything about the afterlife.  All afterlife
religions I've studied smell like it is clinging to an unsubstantiated
hope of eternal life.  After all, who wants to die?  Now the First Law
of Thermodynamics states that matter can't be created or destroyed
under natural circumstances.  I have no more reason to believe the
universe has existed for eternity than to believe it was created
through supernatural means, but there's no possible that the universe
was created through natural means.  Along the same vein, the First Law
of Thermodynamics has expanded to say that matter or its energy
equivalent can't be created or destroyed.  While bodies decompose,
degenerated into atoms and molecules and are recycled through plant
life, energy in our body too unaccountable for my tastes, suggesting
that since it can not be destroyed, it is moved (MAYBE, POSSIBLY to an
extraterrestrial location created in addition to our own universe,
i.e. Heaven, Valhalla, Hades, etc.) or is recycled (reincarnation).

A nod in favor of reincarnation is that energy can not be created, it
has to come from somewhere.  If we have a soul, and that soul is
energy, then new borns have to receive that energy from somewhere. 
The energy of one soul could be transferred to another through a
pregnant mother eating food containing it (or a collection of bits of
souls), which would support reincarnation, or the energy could be
collected from other types of energy and molded into a new soul. 
This, if true, would support the theory that we do indeed have a soul,
but it doesn't go to an afterlife.  Rather, it's dissolved and
rearranged into other types of energy in the earth.

And again, you can't quote the Bible to prove the existence of God. 
It's like quoting Einstein to prove relativity.

Haidesu,
Did you not read why I quoted Catholic scriptures?  I quoted them
because you mentioned priests, bishops and popes.  I didn't make any
statement saying that the scriptures are true, I simply used it as one
example of how you cannot possibly be right (if the scripture is
perceived by someone then you claim it's reality... yet you perceive
something contradictory to reality... therefore you are wrong).  That
was my point.  And yes, your logic was ripped apart easily just as you
said it could be, but why does that make me an "asshole" by proving
you wrong?  Don't you want to know truth from fiction?


Adamsimon,
Paradox:  1. "A seemingly contradictory statement that MAY nonetheless be true"
          2. "One exibiting contradictory or inexplicable aspects or qualities"
--Webster's II New Riverside University Dictionary
Are you sure I used the word wrong?
Secondly, to not know the lesser does not imply not knowing the
greater.  Is it possible for a 1st grader to grasp multiplication
before addition?  Is it possible for me to know a senator personally
yet not know how to read?  Your point has no logic to it.
Thirdly, I never claimed in my posts in this discussion that I know
the Creator personally, and I gave no arguement on those basis.  If
you read my post you would see that I used 1 verse in the bible (the
bible that priests, bishops, and popes use [since those are the people
that were mentioned]) and Haidesu's own logic to show that Haidesu's
point was invalid.

lol, you are misinterpreting my asshole statement.  you know the term,
Im going to rip you a new asshole?  thats how i was using it.  i would
never call someone an asshole for having a different view than my own.
 Im simply saying you will be able to rip my views apart, ie, ripping
them new assholes.  its suppose to be a joke of some sort.  Im a bit
retarded, really, so i dont really understand your logic, you may have
to explain it in much simpler terms.  All im saying is that god can
exist to those who believe enough, and not exist to those who dont. 
Like i said before, this is evident because faith in somthing alters
people and they design their lives based on beliefs.
Taking another look at your statement makes it seem you are being
defensive when you shouldnt be.  I am not attacking you point of view
because it is your own and i respect that.  If something i said made
it seem that way i apologize, but that was not my intent.  i was
simply trying to state the realities of different religions, because
they are all different.
As for the thermo-thingy statement that energy cannot be created or
destroyed.  well, im not a scientist, i dont know about that.  but a
baby is made because the energy of the mother, ie, nutrients from the
food she eats, is transfered to the baby.  If the mother wouldnt eat
during the pregnancy the child would die and so  would she because
there are no nutrients or energy being transfered to the baby.  so if
the re-incarnation theory were correct that the souls provide energy,
the baby would still live and be born even if the mother didnt provide
the baby with nutrients.  Just as a disclaimer, im just pointing my
views, they are mine whether they are right or wrong and i am
certainly not saying someone else is wrong because their views differ.
And yeah, can you explain how i made my own point invalid?  i havent
studied logic, so you have to be patient with me.   thanks

I'm certainly glad you were being more civil than I took you to be :) 
It's always good to discuss things in good fun, and sometimes even
gain a new perspective from the discussion.

As for you invalidating your point, I believe you made a different
point earlier than you just now made.  The point you made earlier was
"Reality is perception."  However that point is wrong... as I stated,
reality is reality, then I gave 2 examples of how perception is
clearly wrong when judged against perception (1 example was the
statement in the bible: if 1 person perceives it, then according to
"reality is perception" that statement in the bible is reality... yet
if someone else perceives something else that contradicts it then that
contradictory statement is also reality, yet there is no way that both
statements can be true... the other example was the LSD monster, where
I stated that the monster is still a wall in reality no matter what
that person perceives it to be).
But now you're claiming something slightly different (I think); that a
person's beliefs will change what they see as reality.  That is a very
true statement.  Many people live and die based completely on their
beliefs (whether buddhist, christian, muslim, wiccan...).
However it's important to notice that their beliefs in no way create
reality.  Their actions based on their beliefs may change the world,
but just because they believe something (for instance, let's say I
honestly believe that the keyboard I'm typing on is God and that God
loves me because I type on it... and therefore I will spend eternity
in heaven) that doesn't make that belief reality at all... however
real it may be to me.

I think that God is not any absolute entity; it is an ever changing
idea or a relative entity. To satisfy the hunger of inquisitiveness to
explain the phenomenon of the universe that presently didn?t come into
the intellect of ancient man (e.g. the rising and setting of sun) he
had to create imaginary beings into his subconscious-ness and held
them responsible for all those happenings (e.g. a god or goddess or
anything is responsible for setting and rising of sun or say the flood
or volcano eruption, etc). Social and economical conditions have also
been responsible. A poor man whose family was massacred by some cruel
King or an enemy or a beast, anything and he couldn't do anything
against that King or enemy, he learnt to satisfy his anger by
inventing some more powerful being (more powerful than that King or
his enemy or that beast) and putting the matter of revenge to them.
Therefore, this attitude of imagining the assistance of a supreme
being has rather come thru adaptations of feeble man in the
environments of social, economical injustice and natural catastrophes.
Thru successive generations, this supreme creature has been modified
into rather systematic and organized way and the concept of which is
fed into our mind as we grow and develop in our society.
Regarding the spiritual nirvana and enlightenment that we get from
prayers (different in different religions) it is infact due do
conditioning and reconditioning as we grow in our society and learn
moralities (moralities have been associated with religion), I want to
say that it is a "learnt behavior" rather than innate.

Albert Einstein writes in one of his essays on religion:

"What are the feelings and needs that have led men to religious
thought? A little consideration will suffice to show us that the most
varying emotions preside over the birth of religious thought and
experience. With primitive man it is above all fear that evokes
religious notions - fear of hunger, wild beasts, sickness and death.
Since at this stage of existence understanding of causal connections
is usually poorly developed, the human mind creates illusory beings
more or less analogous to itself on whose wills and actions these
fearful happenings depend. Thus one tries to secure the favor of these
beings by carrying out actions and offering sacrifices which,
according to the tradition handed down from generation to
generation."(1)

References: 

(1) http://condor.stcloudstate.edu/~lesikar/einstein/index.html

The book "the Problem of Pain" by C.S Lewis is a great book, which
tells of the futility of arguing for agnosticism among other issues
and questions of God.  (I'm a born again christian, who once was an
agnostic-) C.S Lewis is brilliant, but very readable, as evidenced by
his allegorical Narnia Chronicles.  Ravi Zacharias at rzim.org is a
christian apologist that has many arguments for the existence of God. 
He is sometimes so smart though, that I fear he loses most of his
audience. You must check him out though, if you are seriously pursuing
this. Also, Go to CRI.org for all types of answers.  Reasons by Josh
McDowell also goes into some numerical proofs that the world is not
designed by chance.  (He wrote "More Than a Carpenter", which asks,
among other things- Do you believe Jesus was a liar, a lunitic or
Lord- you must choose.  I have an extensive apologetic library and I
know from experience, you can research for years, but you must ask
Jesus into your heart, not your head.

Here's my quite logical syllogism for why god CANNOT exist, at least
in the way all major religions portray Him.  I am personaly an
agnostic and do not deny that there may be an all-powerful being, but
I do deny that there is a God in the way most religions define it.

1) There are many religions claiming that their god is "the" god, and
you must believe in Him to be saved, or you will be damned (to some
extent, somehow....)

2) Because they all have different practices regarding their God, they
cannot ALL be right.  Additionally, God by definition is benevolent;
he could not allow one group to ACTUALLY be "right" and have "their"
God be the true God, because that would necessitate a large majority
of people, those of all otehr faiths, to be damned (good people too,
by the definitions of their personal religions).

3) Therefore, there cannot exist a God that mandates certain things
(meaning all the practices that constitute almost all religions) in
retturn for some form of salvation.

Does that make sense?  I think so, but check me on that.

-Andrew

Andrew,

Your thoughts are a start to the debate, but I see several flaws in
your logic.  I'll point out 1 unless you want more:

You claim that there might be a God but he is not the God of major
religions.  Yet you say "God by definition is benevolent".  What
definition are you using for God?  How can you use any definition or
know any charactoristic of God if you deny that any religion knows
him?

God could be an angry and hateful God (I don't believe that by the
way, but it could be the case with all you claim to accept about God).

HEY dtnl42-ga
I can make you prove yourself that god really exists.
In the coming days try being a good human being,i mean the gooddest.
How can u be one?
Do not talk ill of others in any way possible.
Have infinite forbearance in all circumstances.Be patient
everywhere.Try,no u have to learn from each and every experience at
the deepest detail possible.(u will have to spend a lot of time
thinking-i did only 20 years i'm 22 now).relate everything that u come
to notice, know etc with god,god's approval.(if u love somebody really
good like a girl friend for a boy and love her very
deeply,eternally,purely then this becomes easy)Do not follow any
scriptures,books,or religious practices unless u are fully satisfied
with their efficiency rate.Just ask god himself occasionally to
provide u with valuable info,if u are sensitive enuf you will notice
it.
At all time u need to ask this thing, am i happy,how can i be
happier,how can i prolong this joy, how can i do this by not
interfering in anyone  else's business badly at even the slightest
detail- (called Self Rejection),who can i depend ,believe will be with
me in helping me making my important decisions,whom to trust whom not
to heed.
Overtime your mind will become strong in belief(and in all other respects) and
it will also be sensitive to record the games God plays,the help he renders,the 
service he does for u etc.
In all these the most important thing to give attention to is your
habits,do not indulge in anything indulging.do not eat meat or
fish.keep your mind,interests
ambitions fixed towards a higher goal ,a higher well being.
remember money is nothing,God is every thing.

Let go EGO to get to GOD

I think we need to know what you would consider hard evidence? 
You have obviously suppressed the evidence already available, and for
anyone here to state that evidence would be useless because you would
reject. So what is it that you would consider hard evidence?