I watch British TV shows here of course ( e.g The Bill)  and have
always been intrigued by the word Governor or just "Guv" when
addressing higher ranking  officers in same organisation. Particularly
so as I have worked in  an organsiation of many  supervisory/
management layers  and gone a reasonable  distance up the ladder
myself. Never however  would I or anyone hear the term Govenor or Guv
when addressing a supervisor or mangager. I  actually quite like the
term as a simple and polite generic means by which one could address a
manager one does not know well or deal with very often; without any
embarrassment or uneasiness about approaching a higher ranking
individual, which often happens here. However here its usuallly first
names for everyone except the absolute most senior managers( and then
only some of those) even for new recruits from Day One.   Just what is
the  broad history of the term Governor in England. Dose it relate to
an outdated class system that may have made the term Governor
appropriate when class distinction was more of a force
( and accepted as the norm) many years ago?? Is it just simply a
convenient term that is considered polite  and convenient for everyone
to use with no class conatations about it at all???  Is every new
recruit introduced to new supervisor as Governor or does one have to
earn the right to get to even that stage of familiarity with a new
boss?? Should I  more correctly address Bryan as Governor from this
point on??   Any other interesting insights on term would be most
welcome.

 Thanking you,

 John From Melbourne

---

Clarification of Question by johnfrommelbourne-ga on 02 Oct 2004 04:49 PDT

If I may be so impertinent perhaps answerer could also enlighten me on
how the British seem to get away with calling each other by last names
only. On TV at least it appears quite the norm( and almost a term of
endearement) and not the gross insult it would be considered back here
in Australia. Admittedly I notice that use of last names to address
each other seems mainly to come through on older TV shows and old
movies so perhaps this  means of adressing people has gone out of
style as well,yes??

 JOHN

---

Clarification of Question by johnfrommelbourne-ga on 05 Oct 2004 01:10 PDT

Thanks once more everyone; most enlightning and very interesting.  
Answerfinder please feel free to cut & paste your comments section
into the  paid answer section and thereby claiming the fee. You
supplied a comprehensinve answer not just from researched info but
also from first hand experience so only fair that you collect the fee.

 John From Melbourne

Dear John,
Thank you for taking my comment as an answer.
 
I joined the London Police Force in the early 1970s and it was
certainly the accepted way to address a senior officer as ?Guv? or
?Guv?ner?, but this was only in the CID, or the Criminal Investigation
Department to give its full title. By senior officer, I mean Detective
Inspector and above. If you were a Detective Constable, Detective
Sergeant or Detective Inspector, ranks above Detective Superintendent
would be referred to as ?Sir?. The slang was definitely influenced by
the Cockney accent.

Uniform Officers would never, never, use this term. They would use
Sir, or the of the rank the person.  This has changed over the years
and they may use it now.

I have no idea how long this had been standard use, but I speculate
that it may have been that way for many years. It may have arisen in
the CID as a convenient way when in public, say in a pub or café, of
acknowledging a senior CID officer without making it sound stilted in
public setting, or make it obvious that you were policemen, or with
some class connotation if you used ?Sir?.

The local publican was referred to as the governor of the pub, the
owner of the local firm was called the governor. I cannot say how
common the phrase was outside of the police as I was part of that
culture and did not have an outsiders? view of its general usage. I
still occasionally address someone as ?guv?.

As to its history, it derived from latin -
"The English word "governor" derives from the Latin word "gubern?tor"
(from which the adjective "gubernatorial" is taken). In ancient Rome,
a governor was an official charged with the administration of a Roman
province."

The source provides a further definition - 
"A governor is an official who heads the government of a colony, state
or other sub-national state unit. Most countries in the world have
some sort of official known as a governor, though in some countries,
the heads of the states, provinces and regions may have a different
title. This is particularly common in Europe, e.g. President of the
Regional council in France, and minister-president in Germany. There
are also different titles in Spain, Italy, Switzerland and Belgium.

There can also be non-political governors, such as the governor of a
bank or corporation. In the United Kingdom and other Commonwealth
countries, the official in charge of a prison (the warden in the
United States) is called the governor."

Source
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governor


A look at the wonderful resource of the Old Bailey trail transcripts,
1674 to 1799, shows there were many institutions and companies with
governors in London and the surrounding area ?
http://hri.shef.ac.uk/luceneweb/bailey/results.jsp?words=governor&format=and&type=&range=&year=

"..the Governor and Company of the Bank of England.."
"..the Governor and Company of the New-River-Water.."
"..President and Governor of the Poor of the London Work-house.."
"..the Governor of the Grey Coat Hospital in Westminster.."
"..Governor and Company of the York-Buildings.."
"..the Governor and Company of the Chelsea Water-Works.."
"..The Governor and Company of the Copper Miners of England.."
"..the governor of the workhouse.."


I cannot say what happened in the language between then and 1970, but
it seems to me that if a trading company would have a Governor, then
it is quite natural that it was used in the everyday life as meaning
the man in charge; this would naturally be shortened in slang to
guv?ner or guv ? especially in London. I cannot say what happened in
the rest of the UK.


?could also enlighten me on how the British seem to get away with
calling each other by last names only. On TV at least it appears quite
the norm( and almost a term of endearment)?

Funny, when I watch a US programmes I say exactly the same thing.  I
think its all to do with scriptwriting and making the narrative of the
plot work. Perhaps they don?t want to have too many first names as
well or the audience will get confused if both first and/or last names
are used depending on the scene.

answerfinder-ga

Thanks very much AF; very well handled indeed and inclusive of first
hand experience as well. I now understand I had some misconceptions in
my mind that you have now put to rest. I think I should go to England
one day but sadly for Australians it is so far away that most of us
will never see it at all, other than through " The Bill" and shows
like that. Can I also assume that you would have worn one of those
large solid hats, ( I just forget what they are called now), and been
referred to as a "Bobby". Well thats what they used to tell us in
school that a policeman in England was called

"Governor" seems archaic to my American ears.  I watch a lot of BBC
America on TV and many British films.  As for just last names, this
seems to be just among equals, or a superior addressing an inferior.
Vice versa would be Mr. Soandso or Ms. Thang.

Also, I believe "governor" is usually spoken by those with a Cockney
accent.  I could be entirely wrong about all this.

?Governor? is a term employed in the police force for someone higher
in rank, but not when the difference in rank is extremely large. For
example, a constable might address an inspector as ?governor? but not
the commissioner. The use of last names (without the ?Mr?) as a
familiar form of address is very old and dates back to public schools
and the universities. It is now largely superceded by the use of first
names. (Interestingly, a similar situation also exists in France).

Writing as a Brit, the use of "Guv" or "Governor" outside the police
force is now rare, and nelson is quite right - it was mainly a London
working-class expression, not just for a superior at work, but for any
"gent". As for the use of "Governor" in the police force, I wonder if
this was traditional; or whether perhaps it was devised for TV police
programmes (such as "The Bill"), and then adopted in the milieu
concerned - which has certainly been the case with much "Sarf" [South]
London dialect in recent years. (The deservedly highly popular comedy
programmes "Minder" and "Only Fools & Horses" have been particularly
influential in this regard.) As for calling people by their second
names, boyo62 is correct in saying it is very outdated. I've only
experienced it being used by teachers at school; and by a few older
men when I started work in the late 1950s. But, as nelson says, the
surname was used in two rather distinct ways - by upper class men to
each other; and by upper class men to inferiors (especially servants,
of both sexes). Middle and working class people used Mister or first
name, depending on how well they knew each other.

And why to British footballers call their manager "the gaffer"?

Dear John,
I?ll supply this as a comment as I cannot answer all of your question with sources.
 
I joined the London Police Force in the early 1970s and it was
certainly the accepted way to address a senior officer as ?Guv? or
?Guv?ner?, but this was only in the CID, or the Criminal Investigation
Department to give its full title. By senior officer, I mean Detective
Inspector and above. If you were a Detective Constable, Detective
Sergeant or Detective Inspector, ranks above Detective Superintendent
would be referred to as ?Sir?. The slang was definitely influenced by
the Cockney accent.

Uniform Officers would never, never, use this term. They would use
Sir, or the of the rank the person.  This has changed over the years
and they may use it now.

I have no idea how long this had been standard use, but I speculate
that it may have been that way for many years. It may have arisen in
the CID as a convenient way when in public, say in a pub or café, of
acknowledging a senior CID officer without making it sound stilted in
public setting, or make it obvious that you were policemen, or with
some class connotation if you used ?Sir?.

The local publican was referred to as the governor of the pub, the
owner of the local firm was called the governor. I cannot say how
common the phrase was outside of the police as I was part of that
culture and did not have an outsiders? view of its general usage. I
still occasionally address someone as ?guv?.

As to its history, it derived from latin -
"The English word "governor" derives from the Latin word "gubern?tor"
(from which the adjective "gubernatorial" is taken). In ancient Rome,
a governor was an official charged with the administration of a Roman
province."

The source provides a further definition - 
"A governor is an official who heads the government of a colony, state
or other sub-national state unit. Most countries in the world have
some sort of official known as a governor, though in some countries,
the heads of the states, provinces and regions may have a different
title. This is particularly common in Europe, e.g. President of the
Regional council in France, and minister-president in Germany. There
are also different titles in Spain, Italy, Switzerland and Belgium.

There can also be non-political governors, such as the governor of a
bank or corporation. In the United Kingdom and other Commonwealth
countries, the official in charge of a prison (the warden in the
United States) is called the governor."

Source
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governor


A look at the wonderful resource of the Old Bailey trail transcripts,
1674 to 1799, shows there were many institutions and companies with
governors in London and the surrounding area ?
http://hri.shef.ac.uk/luceneweb/bailey/results.jsp?words=governor&format=and&type=&range=&year=

"..the Governor and Company of the Bank of England.."
"..the Governor and Company of the New-River-Water.."
"..President and Governor of the Poor of the London Work-house.."
"..the Governor of the Grey Coat Hospital in Westminster.."
"..Governor and Company of the York-Buildings.."
"..the Governor and Company of the Chelsea Water-Works.."
"..The Governor and Company of the Copper Miners of England.."
"..the governor of the workhouse.."


I cannot say what happened in the language between then and 1970, but
it seems to me that if a trading company would have a Governor, then
it is quite natural that it was used in the everyday life as meaning
the man in charge; this would naturally be shortened in slang to
guv?ner or guv ? especially in London. I cannot say what happened in
the rest of the UK.


?could also enlighten me on how the British seem to get away with
calling each other by last names only. On TV at least it appears quite
the norm( and almost a term of endearment)?

Funny, when I watch a US programmes I say exactly the same thing.  I
think its all to do with scriptwriting and making the narrative of the
plot work. Perhaps they don?t want to have too many first names as
well or the audience will get confused if both first and/or last names
are used depending on the scene.

answerfinder-ga