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Q: new computer hardware assistance ( Answered 5 out of 5 stars,   1 Comment )
Question  
Subject: new computer hardware assistance
Category: Computers > Hardware
Asked by: kewerkheis-ga
List Price: $55.00
Posted: 02 Oct 2004 12:24 PDT
Expires: 01 Nov 2004 11:24 PST
Question ID: 409386
I am in need of a hardware guru who is up to date with computer hardware parts.

I've decided to build a very limited yet functional "barebone"
computer that will strictly be used for heavy business work, no
gaming.
The problem is, that I am very limited when it comes to hardware. I do
understand how to parts together to make the whole, but when it comes
to knowing what Serial ATA is and how each motherboard relates to what
RAM and so on, that is where Im lost.

Therefore I need someone's very educated opinion that can give me very
specific hints on which parts to buy (types and actual model names
would be very nice)
I am not looking to spend anywhere more than a $400-600 at most. This
is a barebone system (as you will see below) and parts like Hard
Drive, CD/DVD Drives, floppy drives and so on and so forth will be
purchased separately by me.

CASE
- Regular case with alot of space for upgrades, good airflow and the
possibility of installing multiple fans and perhaps a small cooling
system.
* 400W+ power supply is a must, since I believe in the future I'll
slowly upgrade the computer which will require sufficient power
* Must already include fans or atleast have a fair-to-setup scheme
where I can attach one or two regular fans, one HD fan for each HD,
and so on

MOTHERBOARD
- I would say this is where I am completely lost. I dont see the
difference between my current motherboard and the motherboard in my
old 486.
* Must be very flexible and upgradeable. Must comply with somewhat
current technology. AGP is a must and ..dont know if im saying this
right SATA port.
* 4 PCI slots minimum
* Not too many extras. I dont need onboard LAN for example, but an
onboard Sound would be OK.
* Very well known manufacturer is a must, I need a bios that has alot
of functions (such as booting from a USB device as an example) No
no-name brands
* Must be compatible with the RAM and the CPU below

MEMORY
I also dont understand much about memory. I know the difference
between sizes, and how they fit the board. But what DDR is silences me
without an answer.
* Must be the "fastest" available. Yet within a limit. I know
something like DDR 133Mhz (dont laugh) is the fastest out there, but
if there's a $500 Super Memory chip that came out a couple of months
ago thats 30% faster, I DO NOT NEED THAT, remember money is an issue.

GRAPHICS CARD
I have a PCI card, hopefully its compatible

SOUND CARD
Onboard is ok, as long as it can play music at a fair quality, I dont mind.
"Offboard" that wont give me any driver issues (ie brand name) yet
cheap. Nothing like SuperBlaster 1053MXP Duple-Surround Sound 4D Alien
Technology $250 cards.

CPU
I am aware this is the essential part. And once again, I know little
about them. I know that there are two main ones, Intel and AMD. There
are others like Celeron.
I need a one thats in the range of 80-90% of being the fastest on the
market, yet somewhat cheap. I just need a system that will able to
function well with multiple applications open at once. I am not a
gamer nor do I run a server.

An example: If there's a 2.8Ghz AMD that goes for $100 (I dont know
the prices yet, just estimating), and a 2.8Ghz Intel that goes for
$120, and a 3.5Ghz Whatever going for $250, I'd rather get the Intel
(if there's a reason why its $20 more)
* With heatsink/fan

SPEAKERS
Got them already.

KEYBOARD/MOUSE
Got them or will purchase separately

MONITOR
Got a couple

OTHER
Network card, floppy, HD, DVD/CD/CD-RW will be bought separately. I
can read reviews on those. So we can assume that I have those already.

What about wires? Any connectors or whatever else I need? Please advise.

COOLING
Fans - Any suggestions on good $10-30 range fans that work well, are
quiet and without any extras (like flashes or lights)
Cooling system - how do these work? Anything in $40-60 range?
HD Fans - I must stress this, I CANNOT afford to have the HDs fail.
Even with a backup HD I still wish to cool my HDs well enough that
they dont burn out.



Any suggestions? Any comments?

Lets start a conversation if there's anything missing or if something is not clear.

I need a system that is compatible with itself. In another words I
dont want to buy a 1997 motherboard and not have it compatible with
the CPU or the "new" type RAM.

Summary:

Total Price Range : $400-600 ($700 at most if something is a MUST) for
a CASE, CPU, MEMORY, MOTHERBOARD, MEMORY, COOLING and any needed
accessories
The actual names & average prices for each. I dont know where I'll be
buying the parts, but www.pricewatch.com is a good start.
Make sure everything is compatible.

Thank you.
Answer  
Subject: Re: new computer hardware assistance
Answered By: denco-ga on 02 Oct 2004 23:32 PDT
Rated:5 out of 5 stars
 
Howdy kewerkheis-ga ,

As I have been doing lots of research on just this as of late as I am putting
together a new barebones system for myself, I modified things to make a system
in the price range you designated.

The prices and URLs that are shown below are from Newegg.com, but I also list
some additional web sites that are well considered.

CPU
Intel Pentium 4 3.2E GHz 800MHz FSB - Model BX80546PG3200E
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=19-116-172
$ 229.00

The above is the fastest CPU you can get without getting into some real price
hikes.  A very nice Intel processor that includes a fan and heatsink.

Motherboard
Intel D865PERLL i865PE Chipset Motherboard - Model BOXD865PERLL
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=13-121-184
$ 103.00

Maybe a bit overkill, but Intel, comes with AGP, 5 PCI slots, Firewire, RAID
and SATA (Serial ATA) support, LAN, audio and more for future expansion.

Memory
2x Kingmax 184 Pin 512MB DDR PC-3200 - Model MPXC22D-38
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=20-156-006
$ 150.00

1G of RAM.  PC3200 might not be the fastest but it is the generally accepted
speed to get the job done without a cost penalty.

Case
AsiaPro ASYS Blue Mid Tower Case, 450W PS - Model 7650 4JA
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=11-199-001
$ 26.00

450W power supply.  2 fan spots in the rear.  2 fan spots right in front of
the hard drive mounts.  No need to spend more.

Cooling
5x KINGWIN 80mm Ball Bearing Case Fan, Model# F-01B-3PIN
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=11-999-963
$ 10.00

5 (you get a price break at that quantity) 25 dBA (quiet) case fans.

Total cost for everything is $518.00 plus shipping.

Shouldn't really need any other cables, etc.

Some suggestions for web sites to buy the main items, such as the CPU and
motherboard.  The memory, case and fans are sort of generic items, but you
will want to use the above specifications as guidelines.

Newegg.com
http://www.newegg.com/

TigerDirect.com
http://www.tigerdirect.com/

ZipZoomFly
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/

Some price comparison sites other than pricewatch, which you know about.

PriceGrabber
http://www.pricegrabber.com/

NexTag
http://www.nextag.com/

If you need any clarification, feel free to ask.


Search strategy:

I have been building personal computers (PCs) and servers for over 10 years,
and I am working on yet another computer for myself.

Looking Forward, denco-ga - Google Answers Researcher

Request for Answer Clarification by kewerkheis-ga on 03 Oct 2004 09:15 PDT
Hello denco-ga,

Thank you so much for answering my question.

I still have a few questions:


1) 
CPU
Intel Pentium 4 3.2E GHz 800MHz FSB - Model BX80546PG3200E
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=19-116-172
$ 229.00

Although this is a bit "expensive" CPU, I'd say investing a bit more
into CPU would pay back with the fact that the PC will not become
obsolete for quite awhile.

But then again, prices for any parts rise and drop not gradually but
exponentially, aka in 6 months its 1/2 fraction, then its not 1/3 but
1/4 and so on.

Would you be so kind as to provide me with some extra CPUs that I can
choose from? Im not building a powerhouse, yet I dont want the
computer to become "obsolete" within a year or two.

2) Motherboard

The motherboard is pretty good. Yet again I have to dig a bit, dont take me wrong.

Does the price get affected by LAN that much? I have various cards
already and am planning to use a wireless setup instead. Is there a
cheaper card thats also compatible with this setup?

This motherboard has only 2 slots for RAM, it would be nice if it had
4 (for a total 2GB RAM), but once again Im probably pushing it and the
motherboard price would jump up?

Any extra suggestions for a Motherboard with 4 RAM slots but no
"extras" that would bring the cost up too much.

3) MEMORY

I've heard DDR is pretty fast, so there are no "complaints" (hehe) about this part.

One question, in order to fit 2GB on a system, I'd have to have 4
slots for RAM right? Or is there some other "hacks" that can be used
without creating a bottleneck.

Thank you

Clarification of Answer by denco-ga on 03 Oct 2004 12:03 PDT
My pleasure to address your concerns, kewerkheis-ga.

1) CPU

Here are some options, but when you look at "bang for the buck," the small
amount of money spent to get you closer to the speed "ceiling" is worth it.
I am sticking to the relatively more expensive Intel chips because I am
biased (as it appears you are as well) towards them.  I have never had
problems with any Intel CPU that I have used.

- Intel Pentium 4 2.8E GHz 800MHz FSB - Model BX80546PG2800E
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=19-116-170
$ 179.00

- Intel Pentium 4 3.0E GHz 800MHz FSB - Model BX80546PG3000E
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=19-116-171
$ 193.00

Again, I think the "bump" you get between the 2.8 GHz and even the 3.0 GHz
and the 3.2 GHz, for the respective $50 and $36, to stay away "obsolescence"
is worth it.  This is one of those parts that money up front pays for itself
in the long run.  Get the 3.2 GHz.

2) Motherboard

In reverse order of concern.  The Intel D865PERLL does have the four slots
for RAM that you (and I would as well) desire.
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=13-121-184

"RAM: 4x DIMM for DDR400/333/266 Max 4GB"

You have to look at the close up image to see that Intel DIMM slots are
spaced in 2 sets of 2 (close to each other) slots on this motherboard.

The LAN portion doesn't really add that much to the cost.  I really like
the onboard RAID support for future expansion, but you could get a PCI
RAID board later on if you want.  Less cost is easy though, and I am, as
with the CPU, sticking with Intel.

- Intel D865PERL i865PE Chipset Motherboard - Model BOXD865PERL
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=13-121-186
$ 76.00

- Intel D865GBF i865G Chipset Motherboard - Model BOXD865GBF
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=13-121-192
$ 83.00

- Intel D865PERLX i865PE Chipset Motherboard - Model BOXD865PERLX
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=13-121-208
$ 87.00

- Intel D865GBFL i865G Chipset Motherboard - Model BOXD865GBFL
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=13-121-190
$ 92.00

All of the above have an AGP slot, 4 DIMM slots, at least 4 PCI slots, and
SATA support.  If you do not think you will need onboard RAID support in
the near future, the Intel D865PERL (note the one "L" versus the original
two "L" D865PERLL) will handle your needs nicely.  A $23.00 savings.

3) Memory

DDR is indeed fast.  There are faster, but current pricing is stiff.  You
are right in that it takes 4x 512MB RAM to get to 2G, and all of listed
motherboards have the 4 slots to support that.  The initially suggested 1G
of RAM should hold you for awhile.

New total cost for everything is $495.00 plus shipping.

If you need any further clarification, feel free to ask.

Looking Forward, denco-ga - Google Answers Researcher

Request for Answer Clarification by kewerkheis-ga on 03 Oct 2004 21:36 PDT
Thank you so much! You're really the wiz at these things.

Sorry about the motherboard, I just looked at the picture, and though
that the 2*2 memory slots were actually 2*1 = 2 slots. I will
definately be purchasing chips that are no less than 512MB (for future
upgradability)

Just a couple more questions and I will be off your back.

1) CPU

I got your point about the processor becoming "obsolete", yet again,
how much difference is there between a 3.0Ghz and a 3.2Ghz? Other than
the $36.00 difference (that can go into buying other parts like a
floppy drive)?

If you remember well, a jump from lets say a 200mhz to a 450mhz
computer was VERY noticeable, but what about from 3.0Ghz to 3.2Ghz? If
indeed its there and noticeable (and lets say with the upcoming
"resource hungry" OS versions) I will really need that 0.2Ghz upgrade
-- then your last word will be final.

2) Im worried about cooling. I've lost 3 HDs within 15 months, and I
found out its because of poor cooling. Now with an extra triple-fan HD
cooler, Im lucky to barely get any problems.

If I were to have 3-4 HDs, 1 CD-RW/DVD-RW, floppy, and a couple of PCI
cards (no major graphics card, nothing that generates a 550'C
temperature), would you think I be fine enough with the 4 fans (and
I'm thinking to have a HD fan blowing onto the HDs aswell) ? Or should
I just setup a small cooling system aswell? If you do, any
suggestions?

I will pay for this answer in addition to the total in form of a tip.

3) Also, one thing I am confused about.

All this talk about IDE, EIDE, SATA, SCSI is confusing me.

Im aware that 10000rpm is faster than 7200rpm, but when it comes to
knowing which expansion boards I need (even if any) or whats the
difference between ATA100/133 or SATA or even SCSI.. Im lost.

I'm aware that SCSI is the most expensive and "fastest" setup. The
73GB hard drives go into $400's in addition to buying expansion slots.
Thus this is out of the question.

What about SATA? Is it worth the money? In addition to the CPU upgrade
& the 2GB  ram (1GB for now ofcourse), will SATA be a big improvement
over the money?

Or then if I should just buy an IDE (or EIDE? Whats the difference)
drives, what ATA speed (is it speed or type?) should I get and are
there additional cards to buy (or a motherboard that will allow all
[except SCSI] be conected to it) ?

I will also pay for this extra in form of a tip.


----

Im sorry for bombarding you with all these questions.

Its just you're very experienced in this, and I tried to read about
SATA, and RAID, and SCSI and its just very confusing to me in general.

I will do my best to reward you for your time.

Thank you

Clarification of Answer by denco-ga on 04 Oct 2004 00:37 PDT
Not a problem kewerkheis-ga,

Even with my experience, I have been studying hard for my own system.

1) CPU

Even though you would not notice it at first, the .2 GHz will extend the
time before you start feeling that "ceiling" that always happens.  This
is where you start feeling the system performance is slowing down because
you start pushing its limits.  Over the years, I have found it worth the
little extra price to extend the life of the system.  It will be awhile
before the next generation of CPUs are out there and come down in price.

2) Cooling

The four fans will take care of it all quite nicely.  Sure, you could add
a dedicated hard drive fan as well, but if you look at the example case
layout, the two fans in front will be moving air at a nice clip right
through your hard drives.  As you point out, it is things like heavy duty
graphics cards that produce heat.  A cooling system would be overkill,
both budget and cooling-wise.

3) Drives

Don't worry above SCSI.  As you know, expensive.  You will not need any
expansion boards for what we are talking about as well.  RAID is way of
setting up multiple drives so that data is mirrored across them in a way
to help improve data security against drive failure.  Trade off is cost,
and probably something to avoid at first.

As the motherboards that I have picked out will "only" support ATA-100 and
not ATA-133, ATA-133 is not really a consideration.  The difference is
mostly in the transfer bandwidth, but at the speeds of everything else, you
would not notice the difference.  ATA-133 is backwards compatible, so if you
can get a better deal on an ATA-133 drive than an ATA-100 drive, go for it.

Between ATA-100 and SATA (Serial ATA) you aren't going to notice enough of
a boost to justify the current price difference.  As SATA prices go down,
you will have the option of going to SATA drives as you expand your system.

I would avoid the 10,000 RPM drives because of heat issues.  I would suggest
you go with 7200 RPM, 8MB buffer, ATA-100 (EIDE - Enhanced IDE) hard drives.
These are the most prevalent drives out there, so cost, performance and
reliability are in your favor.  Plenty fast as well.

If you need any further clarification, feel free to ask.

Looking Forward, denco-ga - Google Answers Researcher
kewerkheis-ga rated this answer:5 out of 5 stars and gave an additional tip of: $55.00
Thank you so much denco-ga!

With your support, I will be able to make the RIGHT choices, without
worrying about compatibility, cost, feature over price,
"obsoleteness", and be confident in buying the parts for a new setup.

You are a great researcher, and once again, thank you for all the help
you've given me.

God bless you and take care.

Comments  
Subject: Re: new computer hardware assistance
From: denco-ga on 04 Oct 2004 11:17 PDT
 
Howdy kewerkheis-ga,

Much thanks for the very kind comments, the 5 star rating and the extremely
generous tip.  It was my pleasure to do the research for someone who knows
what they are looking for and in turn asks the right questions.  Glad I was
able to be of some assistance.

Looking Forward, denco-ga - Google Answers Researcher

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