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Q: For Leli only ... ( Answered 5 out of 5 stars,   2 Comments )
Subject: For Leli only ...
Category: Miscellaneous
Asked by: probonopublico-ga
List Price: $10.00
Posted: 08 Oct 2004 08:27 PDT
Expires: 07 Nov 2004 07:27 PST
Question ID: 412029
Hi, Again, Leli

The castle that sparked my interest was Kellie Castle, the one in
Arbroath, Angus - not the other one.

This was one of the homes owned by Captain Archibald Henry Maule
Ramsay the MP for Peebles and South Midlothian from 1931 to 1944.

Known as 'Jock' to his pals, he married the daughter of the 14th
Viscount Gormanston (the premier Irish Viscount). They were both
devout Catholics and she was the war widow of Lord Ninian
Crichton-Stuart the MP for Cardiff who was killed in action in 1915.

Jock's claim to fame (as I am sure you know) was to be interned from
May 1940 to September 1944 for a variety of very interesting reasons

I have quite a lot of stuff on Jock already, including his book 'The
Nameless War' and 'Patriotism Perverted', a more recent offering from
Richard Griffiths. Also the MI5 files on Jock and many of his

I would like to know more about Kellie Castle and also how he came to
be appointed as HM Bodyguard for Scotland, and what his duties were.

I've ploughed the usual fields and I am looking for the stuff that's a
wee bit exotic, the sort of stuff that only you can find.

All the Best


Did you notice the use of the word 'wee'? It was rather a clever use of the
vernacular, was it not?

Request for Question Clarification by leli-ga on 08 Oct 2004 13:05 PDT
Hi Bryan

My first reaction is to ask whether he was part of HM's "Body Guard in
Scotland"? If so, he would have been a member of the rather exclusive
outfit known as the Royal Company of Archers, who elect new members
themselves. I think everyone in it is fairly upper-crust. They have to
be able to use a bow and arrow, and turn up to guard the Queen on
ceremonial occasions.

Can you say any more about what sort of things you'd like to know
about the castle? There may not be much on the web, apart from some of
the names associated with it over the years. I might find out more at
a library, if you can wait a few days.

Yours vernacularly - Leli

Clarification of Question by probonopublico-ga on 08 Oct 2004 15:17 PDT
Och aye, Leli

Jock had been a Member of HM Bodyguard for Scotland since 1920 and he
was decidely upper-crust.

You have already given me a great link with the bow-and-arrow stuff
and the uniforms. Many thanks!

As regards his castle, whatever you can find would be great and I
would appreciate your doing your stuff at the library or wherever.
There's absolutely no hurry but perhaps you could include a progress
meter here ...

> =============================== <

With an ETA ... You know the sort of thing ...

Over to you!

All the Best


(Just got back from the theatre!)

Request for Question Clarification by leli-ga on 09 Oct 2004 01:56 PDT
Good morning, Bryan

I'll report initial findings (if any) later today, but it will
probably be Wednesday before I can get to a library with a "Scottish


Clarification of Question by probonopublico-ga on 09 Oct 2004 02:23 PDT
Good Morning, Leli

Many thanks for advising your plan of action and good luck with your
proposed excursion to the library.

There's absolutely no rush.

All the Best

Bryan MacJoseph

YES I am the son of Joseph. Rather prophetic don't you think?

I wonder ... Is there a MacJoseph Tartan? Or at least a MacJoseph Distillery?

Request for Question Clarification by leli-ga on 09 Oct 2004 09:57 PDT
Hi Bryan

Not a great deal to be found on the net, as I feared.

Three pictures of Kelly or Kellie Castle near Arbroath

A map from the 1920s shows the castle in wooded grounds beside a
river. A path leads into the nearby village of Arbirlot and there's a
railway line nearby. Not too far away is the estate farm, Mains of
(Lots of Scottish farms are called Mains of Something.)
Sheet 58

I started trying to find out how and when the castle passed to AHM
Ramsay, but this is far from clear. In the late 17th century Kelly
Castle came to belong to the Earl of Panmure, who was a Maule. The
Maule family history is all tangled up with the Ramsay family history,
first by marriage, then later by a grandson changing his name from
Ramsay to Maule and taking the title Baron Panmure.

So, I found nothing about who passed the castle to AHMR, what it was
like when he was there, or who got it after him.

In the 1990s it was owned by a Canadian who was restoring the place,
but in 2001 a private buyer bought it for £550,000. I guess it needed
a lot of work.

I'll see what I can find in the library. If I have any choice of
sources, are you more interested in specifically castle-related stuff,
or general family history? I've already run across a bit of
genealogical info but quite a few inconsistencies, as usual in
internet sources. Was Ramsay born in Scotland? Or India? Seems as if
his father and grandfather both had military careers in India. They
weren't called Maule, so did the name "go with" the castle?

I probably won't be around again today, but will check in tomorrow.


PS As for your MacJoseph query, there is a tartan for *every* name. If
you go to the right shop, they will guide you in these matters, and
help you select a few choice items in your very own tartan.

Clarification of Question by probonopublico-ga on 09 Oct 2004 10:46 PDT
Hi, Leli

Many thanks for the stuff so far.

My main interest is Jock and my interest in the Castle is just a
possible way of finding out more about the hon and gallant gentleman

I am vastly encouraged by your news of the MacJoseph Clan, if you can
also rustle up some ancient entitlement to my own castle or whatever
then that's a bonus.

I would even learn to play the bagpipes, if required.

Have a great weekend!

All the Best

Bryan MacJoseph (heir presumptive to Edinburgh Castle, etc.)
Subject: Re: For Leli only ...
Answered By: leli-ga on 13 Oct 2004 12:20 PDT
Rated:5 out of 5 stars
Hi again, Bryan

Well, I had my day at the library and, in between doing other things,
I found a few snippets to add to the bits of Ramsay history floating
round the net. No-one seems to have written much about AHMR, apart
from discussing his political activities, though I think there would
be interesting questions for a biographer to explore.

AHMR was a great-nephew of the 12th Earl of Dalhousie and much of his
heritage is Scottish upper-class: Kellie Castle, aristocratic cousins
nearby at Brechin Castle, the Royal Company of Archers, and English
boarding schools. Sometimes he is described as related to the royal
family; his second cousin married one of Queen Victoria's

He also had family roots in British India. His grandfather, General
Sir Henry Ramsay, Commissioner of Kumaon, was so settled there that he
bought 25 acres of the Himalayas for his retirement home. Lt-Col Henry
Lushington Ramsay, AHMR's father, was in the Indian Political
Department and published a book on the languages and customs of
Ladakh. Then, at the age of 39, in 1893, he married Anna Maria Sophia
Thomas in London. Next year, back in India, AHMR was born, and a year
later his sister Maud arrived.

After Eton and Sandhurst, 19-year-old AHMR joined the Coldstream
Guards. Wounded in 1916, he was given a job at the War Office. The
next year he married Ismay Crichton-Stuart (née Preston), 12 years
older than him, and already mother of three. In 1918 he was posted to
Paris, but was soon invalided out.

While AHMR was growing up, the Earls of Dalhousie had disposed of the
family seat, Dalhousie Castle in Midlothian, and, interestingly, they
had also sold Kellie Castle. Indian-born Jock bought Kellie "back" in
1924, raising questions in my mind about when he acquired the
Kellie-linked Maule name. His father and grandfather weren't called
Maule, though some of his grand cousins were.

AHMR and Ismay had four sons. The internment crisis in May 1940 was
followed the very next month by more distress when their eldest son
Alexander, a young captain in the Scots Guards, was seriously wounded
on active service. He died in a military hospital in Johannesburg in
1943. AHMR died in March 1955; his widow lived for another 20 years.

I wonder when he became a Catholic? Ismay's Anglo-Irish
Gormanston/Preston family were Catholic, as was her first husband, but
the Ramsays seem to have been Protestant since the 18th century. After
an ancestor had to go into exile for his Catholic/Jacobite sympathies,
the family only got their land back by signing up for the other side.
AHMR's grandfather encouraged Protestant mission work in India.

The 20th century Maule Ramsays would have known that Kellie Castle had
once had a private chapel. It seems that in AHMR's days private
services were again held at the castle, since one writer tells us that
the last Christmas midnight mass there was celebrated in 1959, with
the permission of the Bishop of Dunkeld.

In the 1930s excavations at the castle uncovered an underground
smugglers'(?) passage leading to the coast. The excavations may be
another sign of an active interest in family history. In 1920 AHMR had
written a biography of an adventurous ancestor whose life ended
tragically: "A Short Life of Sir Alexander Ramsay of Dalwolsey".

A few years after AHMR's death the family sold the castle. At that
time it had "modest but ample accommodation": three reception rooms,
seven bedrooms, a nursery, and a self-contained five-bedroom flat.

I do have more info about Ramsay/Maule history and a few titbits about
General Sir Henry, probably not relevant, but please just ask if you
want the family tree laid out befor you.

There's not much to add to the webpage I already suggested about the
Royal Archers, but this has a few different details:

So far, no luck with finding a really atmospheric MacJoseph fastness
for you, but will keep an eye out.

Hope this helps - Leli

Main sources:

Gazetteer for Scotland

Kellie Castle, Angus : historic seat of the Maule family, Earls of
Panmure and their successors the Maule Ramsays, now the home of the
Kerr Boyle family
by Jean Dundas
Pilgrim Press (1975)

plus google searches with people and placenames

Request for Answer Clarification by probonopublico-ga on 13 Oct 2004 12:33 PDT
Hi, Leli

Just a big thank you!

I have skimmed your answer and it looks great but will read more
closely tomorrow. and then do the necessary.

As always, you have done a great job!

Jock and 'Mosh' were married in a Catholic Church and although their
eldest son did die while on active service, I'm pretty sure it was
from pneumonia rather than from wounds.

Mosh's first husband left a ton of money (I'm still awaiting a copy of
his will) and I suspect that Mosh may have funded the castle.

Altogether an interesting family.

All the Best


Clarification of Answer by leli-ga on 14 Oct 2004 01:26 PDT
Thank you very much!

I may have jumped to conclusions about Capt. Alexander Ramsay after
seeing a military death notices section of The Times which mentioned
his 1940 wound in the same breath as his death in 1943.

Your comment on inherited dosh made me realise I once visited the
extraordinary Scottish home of Ismay's first father-in-law, a man of
esoteric interests, and rich enough to have an architect renovate his
houses accordingly. If you are ever in Glasgow, don't miss a day trip
to Mount Stuart. 

If you're investigating family money, have you looked in the National
Archives for Scotland?

NAS catalogue

All best wishes - Leli
probonopublico-ga rated this answer:5 out of 5 stars and gave an additional tip of: $10.00
Hi, Again, Leli


What more can I say?

All the Best


Subject: Re: For Leli only ...
From: steph53-ga on 09 Oct 2004 14:06 PDT
Hmmmm, Bryan MacJoseph eh???

Subject: Re: For Leli only ...
From: probonopublico-ga on 10 Oct 2004 11:56 PDT
Hi, Leli

This is his family ....


Hi, Steph

Aye, I am trying to establish my rightful entitlement to wear a kilt.

Bryan the Big Mac

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