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Q: ultralight flying ( No Answer,   5 Comments )
Question  
Subject: ultralight flying
Category: Sports and Recreation
Asked by: irkent-ga
List Price: $10.00
Posted: 18 Jul 2002 08:56 PDT
Expires: 20 Jul 2002 08:59 PDT
Question ID: 42503
I am looking for a detailed comparison of ultralight trike flying
versus powered parasailing in terms of safety, adaptability to 
various weather conditions, i.e. performance of each in certain wind
conditons, landing with cross wind etc., ease of landing, etc.

Clarification of Question by irkent-ga on 18 Jul 2002 10:01 PDT
Actually, instead of powered "parasail" , I am looking for comparison
between ultralight trikes and "powered parachutes"

Request for Question Clarification by huntsman-ga on 18 Jul 2002 10:38 PDT
irkent,

It may be difficult to find such a comparison within a single source.

Are you willing to accept information and details from multiple
sources that would discuss the overall pros and cons?

What sources have you explored thus far?

Thanks,
huntsman

Clarification of Question by irkent-ga on 19 Jul 2002 06:55 PDT
Huntsman:

I would indeed accept comparisons from different sources. I have
visited various web-sites  that promote either Trikes or Powered
Parachutes but have not found a side by side comparison.
Answer  
There is no answer at this time.

Comments  
Subject: Re: ultralight flying
From: curepi-ga on 18 Jul 2002 11:17 PDT
 
I hope you value this comment a little more than USD 10.-

I lost a friend flying trike.
I lost my brother, paragliding.

Both my brother and me flew paragliders and motorized paragliders for
seven years. Were certified national instructors in paragliders and
established the first motorized paragliding school in our country,
Argentina. And made the first motorized flighs in Uruguay, and
Paraguay.
My brother was also a skydiver.
We imported and sold over 1000 units in a 3.5 year period, doubling
the rate of USA .

I can give you tons of data on paragliders w and w/o motor, but very
little on trikes, including critical data you didn't even ask as stall
speed, recovering manouvers minimal height, etc.

Nevertheless the REAL info is :

both activities are high risk inherent.

We are Not talking about highway driving risk.
Taking about 1/1000 per year death risk, plus all the horrible
injuries you can't possible imagine.
I've seen, driven into hospital, participated in memorials all kind of
hangglider and paraglider accidents.

People around me suffered from:
death
quadriplegia
hemiplegia
deafness
broken bones repaired with metal which hurts every single rainy day

At that time we tried to make a catalog of reasons for the accidents.
Now in perspective, I can tell you the main reason was DENIAL OF RISK,
which permitted us to fly.

We were looking for adrenaline and found tears.

Still looking for the data ?

I hope the people at Google Answers could let me reply as a
Researcher, in order to share with you my knowledge accordingly.

Yours friendly,

a. curepi
Subject: Re: ultralight flying
From: curepi-ga on 18 Jul 2002 15:37 PDT
 
Dear irkent-ga :

I'll try to give you some data on your question, because I think my
point was made very clear.

First some conventions:

parasail : a round parachute towed by car or boat (
http://www.pointpleasantbeach.com/parasail.gif )

motorized paragliders ( mp ) : a paraglider + harness + motor (
http://www.marbella-parapente.com )

trike : a hangglider with motor and wheels ( sometimes floats!) (
http://poweredchutes.tripod.com/images/FeaturePhotos/trike.jpg )

In the comparison you've asked, safety should be your first issue.

The stall speed in mp is substantially lower than in any other flying
device except for ballooning. Usually around 20 Km/H ( although
advertised 16 Km/H the real speed is a little bit higher ).
As the turning radius is very small, this means mp pilots do not land
with cross winds on purpose ( only accidentally ) even in narrow
corridors : you can always turn towards the wind in 20 m and land
safely at a very low relative-to-ground speed .
I've landed with crosswinds , backwinds ( on my second free-flight )
and had no problems, except that it is impossible to run at more than
20 Km/H with a 18 Kg paramotor on your back!!!!! )
Stall speed is crucial also for lifting off : a low stall speed means
you can lift off even with no wind in a few meters ( less than 20 ) .

These figures are impossible with trikes.

No runway ( was that the title of Nevil Shute's novel ?) : the terrain
requirements are very different for a trike and a mp .

Under turbulent conditions, both of them present problems:
on perfectly clear days you can have +8m/s thermals surrunded by -8m/s
downburst ( I've been there... ) diving your paraglider 45 degres
below the horizontal, and with a motor in your back !
And trikes are not meant for acrobatic manouvering either ! (  my
friend's simply broke in an accidental stall while recovering, causing
his death )

Max speed: 50 Km/H for mp but a little less if mantaining altitude
Twice as much for trikes.

Emergency parachutes ?
http://www.eaglequest.co.uk/Client156/ParaglidingContent.nsf/77ddc3fdf1cf2a1d80256771003e4e4a/204a114e1eada4db8025677c00545e00?OpenDocument
I've thrown mine during a practice : 40 m lost ( my brother killed
himself in only 10 m ) . Second-Chantz ballistic ( pneumatic ) were
big, expensive, dangerous and finally not used.

Performance:
no doubt a hangglider glides more than a paraglider.
And a swift is better ( http://www.ping.be/%7Eping4026/swift.htm )
And a sailplane even better.
But that's not the issue : with paragliders and mp you can climb
thermals by turning inside the bubble. And take it with in the
smallest compact car's trunk.
Assembly in 5 minutes as compared to maybe 1/2 hour.

My choice ?
www.hobiecat.com.ar 
Wind, adrenaline, power, fun. Silence.
Sounds familiar ?
It is more environmental friendly, and allows both soloing and group
fun.

Hope to have answered your question.
Still waiting Google people to invite me as a researcher.

a. Curepi
Subject: Re: ultralight flying
From: huntsman-ga on 18 Jul 2002 18:58 PDT
 
curepi,

As a minor footnote to your valuable comments, Nevil Shute's 1948
aviation novel, which presaged the British De Havilland Comet airliner
accidents in the 1950's, was entitled "No Highway"
(http://www.nevilshute.org/Reviews/highway.html).

The 1951 movie was also known by the same title, but is perhaps better
known as "No Highway in the Sky". It starred James Stewart, Marlene
Dietrich, and Glynnis Johns (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0043859).

huntsman
Subject: Re: ultralight flying
From: irkent-ga on 19 Jul 2002 07:06 PDT
 
Curepi:

Thanks for your comments and the time you put in to help me out. Also,
thanks to Google for posting them. Your insight certainly gives me
pause. I took my first trike ride off a beach in Mexico and it was
such a thrilling event, that I wanted to do more. I am 58 and got  my
first motorcycle  three years ago. ( I now have a Honda VTX)...it is
such a joy. And yet I know there are risks...as with mountain climbing
or any number of activities that pique the senses in ways not
available in less risky ventures. I guess in posing my question I am
trying to find the overall safest way to get in the air by power.
Thanks again.
Subject: Re: ultralight flying
From: curepi-ga on 19 Jul 2002 15:44 PDT
 
http://www.fai.org/hang_gliding/documents/parapro.asp is a good place
to start about safety in paragliders.

For hanggliders http://www.fai.org/hang_gliding/documents/safepro.asp

http://www.bhpa.co.uk/skywings/old_website/latest/accidentvi/accidentvi.htm
and the 6 previous reports include an accident comparison in both free
flight sports. ( "flight accident statistics" through Google.)

http://www.parapente.com.ar/libros/libros.php is my former pupil
Alejandro Spitznagel's page, including several books . There's one
completely devoted to mp ISBN 84-87695-08-6 and a version in english.

I've read all of them (except this last one) and be careful : there
are some errors printed on them. For example there are mathematical
demonstrations which we daily proved wrong.
Which takes us to the question : "when theory and reality differ,
which one should be changed ?"

Powered Paragliding Pilot Training Manual
by Andre S.Rossin-Arthiat, A.S Rossin-Arthiat at www.amazon.com

Paramotoring From the Ground Up
by Noel Whittall also at www.amazon.com 

"motorized hangglider" search at www.metacrawler.com gave me some
interesting results, including one stating "Leave your inhibitions at
home, live your dreams and let them come true". No comment.

Same search at www.google.com included interesting sites like
http://www.all-about-hang-gliding.com/faq.htm .

You posted "And yet I know there are risks...as with mountain climbing
or any number of activities that pique the senses in ways not
available in less risky ventures."
I agree with you that adrenaline makes us feel alive. But you have to
know in these high risk sports that risk is not only statistical. It
is only a matter of time, before it happens to you.
I feel the adrenaline flow every time I sail at 25 Km/H with a 18 Km/H
wind, but if I make a mistake ( meteorological conditions,
manouvering, etc) the worst case scenario does not put my life into
risk.

Finally, to reply your last comment, I have no doubt safest way to get
in the air by power, is to travel in a good-old-747. I'm sure there
must be a link somewhere...
But not in my country, btw ( http://www.faa.gov/apa/pr/pr.cfm?id=1587
)

I hope to have helped you in your search, yours friendly,
Curepi

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