For my region's annual "science fair," I have been looking into the
hydrogen fuel cell and fuel cells in general, as I have been
interested in their properties and applications for several years.
When I came across an advertisement which claimed that it was possible
to convert one's standard automobile engine to run on hydrogen, (and
cheaply) I remembered an article that I had read in Science News, and
that it had described this emerging technology as something that may
revolutionize the way we travel. I was invigorated with its
possibilities and therefore, what I think would be a terrific science
fair project popped into my head.
The possible questions: Can I increase the efficiency of an internal
combustion engine by converting it to run on hydrogen? At what cost
would this potential increase in efficiency come from?  Or, more
generally, what could I do, as a student, which would constitute an
original contribution to this technology?
Brief research indicated that it is indeed possible to convert an
engine to run on hydrogen, and this is why I am asking this question.
I need to know if it is feasible for a high school student enrolled in
college level chemistry and physics to construct and test an internal
combustion engine that has been converted to run on hydrogen.
Simply, I wish to construct a system (on a small scale; perhaps
go-kart sized) which would allow me to essentially pour in distilled
water, which would be separated into hydrogen and oxygen, (I assume
via electrolysis) and then this hydrogen would be fed into an engine
originally designed to run gasoline and ultimately, run this engine at
close to or above its normal capacity. Several problems arise for such
a project. First, and primarily, how on earth do I do such a thing? I
assume it is something which would require extremely detailed
instructions?or advanced degrees in the sciences which I do not have,
yet. I would also need to be able to obtain the materials required for
such a conversion at a student?s budget. I wonder if you can point me
in the right direction.

if this is not really feasible, please tell me directly, so I can
pursue something else

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Clarification of Question by jacobberv-ga on 16 Nov 2004 13:18 PST

to hfshaw-ga:  What about this ?
http://www.futurehorizons.net/hyd2.htm is that a hoax?


to hfshaw-ga:  "A
somewhat less daunting, but still ambitious project would be to
convert a small, working model of a gasoline-powered IC engine (such
as those at http://www.jerry-howell.com/) to run on hydrogen." 

what about modifying the engine from something like
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=19168&item=5935403887&rd=1

would such a conversion for an engine of this type be possible?

or, if the jerry-howell engines would be something better to
experiment with, would it be possible to purchase one that has already
been assembeled or one that is similar enough

---

Clarification of Question by jacobberv-ga on 16 Nov 2004 13:20 PST

http://www.futurehorizons.net claim to sell plans which will increase
preformance by converting an engine to run on hydrogen

---

Clarification of Question by jacobberv-ga on 16 Nov 2004 13:21 PST

that first clarification was directed to mathtalk-ga

---

Request for Question Clarification by mathtalk-ga on 16 Nov 2004 18:53 PST

Hi, jacobberv-ga:

Yes, it has all the earmarks of a hoax.  For a brief article on a
similar variation of a "free energy" scam, see here and the links it
provides:

[Museum of Hoaxes -- Water-fueled Car]
http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/weblog/watercar/

As the excellent links provided by pinkfreud-ga and others show, it is
possible to convert a car to run on hydrogen, at a cost of something
like $50,000.  This doesn't address the source of the hydrogen
however, and the size of the tank that can be fitted to the vehicle
can be a significant limitation.

For example, a Hydrogen-powered Shelby Cobra is offered by the
Hydrogen Car Company:

[Hydrogen Shelby Cobra]
http://www.yenra.com/hydrogen-shelby-cobra/

for $149,000 complete.  The cruising range is 80 miles to a tank:

[Hydrogen cars ready to roll ? for a price]
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4563676/

However it would be a very nice science project to dig into the
"plans" from one of the suspicious outfits like you linked, and show
where the fallacy is in one of the "inventions" that purports to
create a free or cheap source of hydrogen.

I have some ideas we can kick around, but mass production of cheap
hydrogen is going to be an industrial scale project.

regards, mathtalk-ga

---

Clarification of Question by jacobberv-ga on 17 Nov 2004 13:52 PST

mathtalk-ga,
 I honestly think it would be more "fun" to actually convert a
gasoline IC engine to fun on hydrogen that to just examine the various
methods of producing hydrogen. Could you tell me generally what
converting a gasoline IC engine (even if is of small scale (like an
engine from a gas remote control car)) to run on hydrogen would
ential? If it turns out impossible for me to acomplish, is there
something else you might suggest? Perhaps with hydrogen fuel cells or
similar?
 
I accidentally posted this as a comment before i realized i could
"clarify" a question

---

Clarification of Question by jacobberv-ga on 17 Nov 2004 13:52 PST

that was "run" on hydrogen, not "fun" on hydrogen lol

---

Request for Question Clarification by mathtalk-ga on 17 Nov 2004 15:22 PST

Hi, jacobberv-ga:

Comment or Clarification, they both work for me!

You might contact the folks at this website:

http://www.h2lawn.com/indexa.html

(see their email address at bottom of that page).

They've been trying for months to convert a lawnmower to run on hydrogen.  

I can also point you to a project for converting a model car to run on
fuel cells (cost $3,000).

Or maybe you should specify the time and money you'll have available
for the project?

Conversion of an internal combustion engine is pretty much a matter of
rebuilding the "top-end".  That is, the fuel injection has to be
reworked to meter (compressed) hydrogen gas, the compression ratios
need to be increased somewhat, and the ignition timing needs to be
managed by an ECC rather than a distributor (to get the correct timing
advances).  Overall the engine must run at higher RPM to make up for a
loss of power from the lower chemical energy potential density of the
fuel.

What I was suggesting would be "fun" is uncovering the fallacies in
various free-energy/run-your-car-on-water-hoaxes.  Part of the
challenge is to find the nuggets (or perhaps only grains) of truth
among the smoke and mirrors.  Indeed the efficiency of an internal
combustion engine _can_ be increased by injecting water along with the
fuel into the intake.  This is because steam expands very strongly in
response to the high temperatures of ignition, and this is a
phenomenon that has long been known.  However it doesn't justify
claims that you can run your car on water, does it?

regards, mathtalk-ga

---

Clarification of Question by jacobberv-ga on 17 Nov 2004 20:44 PST

mathtalk-ga,
 
I will need to think on this for a day or so. I contacted the hydrogen
lawnmower people and am awating a reply. In the meantime, can you
point me to
"I can also point you to a project for converting a model car to run on
fuel cells (cost $3,000)."

As far as time and money are concerned, That is to be determined
within the next few days
thanks,
jake berv

If I understand the proposal, you want to use electrolysis to produce
hydrogen and oxygen, then "burn" the hydrogen as fuel.

It would of course be less efficient to do this than to use
electricity to power a vehicle directly.

Setting aside the source of hydrogen for the moment, you say that you
remember some advertisement that claims a regular automobile engine
can be cheaply converted to run on hydrogen.  I do not think this is
correct.  Perhaps you have misremembered claims about running an
automobile engine on alcohol, or perhaps your memory is correct but
the advertisement claims were a hoax.   A liquid hydrocarbon like
gasoline or alcohol has a much higher chemical potential energy
density than hydrogen would as an uncompressed gas.

And if you plan on using compressed/liquid hydrogen as a fuel, you
will need a completely different engine design.

If a negative Answer of this sort is worth the list price you've
offered, I'm sure that a Researcher can flesh out my objections in
greater detail.

regards, mathtalk-ga

This article might interest you:

http://www.clean-air.org/Hydrogen%20Cobra%20Story/Hydrogen%20Cobra.htm

The electrolysis comment by mathtalk reminded me of a story, perhaps
apocryphal, about the hydrogen economy:

A pitch man was proposing to a government body the idea of cheap,
renewable hydrogen as a souces for electricty. When asked from whence
would come the hydrogen he replied "electrolysis." I guess the next
plan would be perpetual motion.

One can use hydrogen (or mixtures of H and other combustible gases
like methane) in an internal combustion engine, and, indeed, the major
automobile manufacturers have all demonstrated (or are working on)
concept cars that are based on this idea.  Indeed, last month, in what
was obviously a PR stunt, presented Gov. Arnie (The Terminator)
Schwarzenegger with a Hummer that had been modified to run on H fuel
(see the last link below).

The modifications to a "standard" gasoline-powered car that are needed
to produce an actual working vehicle, however, are probably beyond
what you would want to take on as a high school science project.  A
somewhat less daunting, but still ambitious project would be to
convert a small, working model of a gasoline-powered IC engine (such
as those at http://www.jerry-howell.com/) to run on hydrogen.

See:

http://avt.inel.gov/hydrogen.html

http://www.ford.com/en/innovation/engineFuelTechnology/hydrogenInternalCombustion.htm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6272039/

http://transtech.anl.gov/v4n1/hydrogen-fueled.html

http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/adv_tech/100_news/hydr_h2_102504.html

mathtalk-ga,
 I honestly think it would be more "fun" to actually convert a
gasoline IC engine to fun on hydrogen that to just examine the various
methods of producing hydrogen. Could you tell me generally what
converting a gasoline IC engine (even if is of small scale (like an
engine from a gas remote control car)) to run on hydrogen would
ential? If it turns out impossible for me to acomplish, is there
something else you might suggest? Perhaps with hydrogen fuel cells or
similar?

Well, if you're ever in Washington DC, you'll be able to fill 'er up:

http://www.floridatoday.com/!NEWSROOM/moneystoryB1115PUMP.htm