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Q: Medieval monasteries: thirteen questions ( No Answer,   6 Comments )
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Subject: Medieval monasteries: thirteen questions
Category: Relationships and Society > Cultures
Asked by: archae0pteryx-ga
List Price: $13.00
Posted: 06 Jan 2006 22:26 PST
Expires: 05 Feb 2006 22:26 PST
Question ID: 430253
Central France.  1308.

1. Did all abbeys and monasteries have guest-houses?
2. Did you have to be (or pretend to be) a pilgrim to take shelter
there, or was it enough to be a traveler?
3. How did you gain admittance?
4. Were all pilgrims equal?
5. What meal was served?
6. Did all guests eat together?--gentry, clergy, and peasantry alike?
7. Did the brothers serve them?
8. Were they served the same food?
9. Were they served the same beverages?
10. Did men and women eat together?
11. Were meals taken in silence?
12. Were married couples separated overnight?
13. Would children of different sexes be separated? even siblings?

Thank you,
Archae0pteryx
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Subject: Re: Medieval monasteries: thirteen questions
From: myoarin-ga on 09 Jan 2006 17:43 PST
 
Hi Tryx,
Did we ask for this? :) 

First, back to those two rather well-off old girls in your other
question.  It has occurred to me that I don?t believe they could run a
household without a manservant to cut firewood and stoke the fires,
etc., etc.  It just doesn?t seem realistic to me that they  - or one
of them -  would be so clever as to increase her/their financial
position and not want or need a man about the house and be willing and
able to afford him.

This is going to be some (more) speculation and extrapolation.
Searching for information about 14th c. pilgrims led to lots of sites
about the Canterbury Tales, with which I am sure you are familiar, but
this site can help add flavor:

http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Hall/1170/chaucerhtml/pilgrim.html

As very mixed group, as was apparently typical, from the following
site, that mentions that there were pickpockets and entertainers just
along for the business.  And obviously, pilgrims didn?t all stay in
religiously run hostels.  It was the tourism of the time; the better
off stayed in better accommodations when they could.  Your Pilgrims
were probably on their way to Santiago de Campostella in northern
Spain.  The routes and daily marches were well established, so there
were alternatives to the church hostels that may have been on the way.
 That is to say, that (q 6) gentry, clergy and peasants would probably
not have all have been at the table in a monastery?s guesthouse.

http://194.3.120.243/humanities/vs/pilgrims/motive.htm

q 4:   Were they all equal?  Obviously not, in worldly terms, but as
travel companions with all the same presumed religious intent, a
certain equality prevailed, perhaps much as it does within a mixed
group of tourists today, where people play down their personal
situation to fit in with the group, though at that time, social
differences were more obvious.

Q 1:  Did all abbeys ? have guest houses?  I expect that they did, to
serve visiting clergy and other guests.  Those along the pilgrim
routes would have, indeed, castles and manor houses often had a
pilgrim facility, as I know from Germany.

Q 2:  Yes, I think you would have had to appear to be a pilgrim  - and
be willing to put up with the minimal comforts, there usually being
alternatives.

Q 3:  Admittance?    I don?t know.  Maybe some had a letter from their
parish priest ?

Q 4:  What meal?  At best, a tough mutton stew, I suspect.  As in some
hostels today, the pilgrims may just have had access to water and a
fireplace to cook their own food.

http://www.moneysense.ca/spending/shopping_sense/article.jsp?content=930493

Q 7: Did the brothers serve them.  I don?t know, but I suspect that if
food was provided, they served themselves, using their own wooden
plate, spoon and general utility knife.

Q 8:  Same food?  Same as what the brothers ate?  Maybe.  Certainly
they didn?t have a choice.

Q 9:  Beverage?    ??

Q 10:  Meals together,  I expect so, and since there were men and
women pilgrims, that would be a reason why they didn?t join the
brothers in their refectory.

Q 11:  Meals in silence?  The brothers ate in silence, often with a
reader reciting from the Bible, but I expect that the evening meal of
the pilgrims was a more raucous event at the end of a 20 km walk. 
Everything seems to indicate that their piety was reserved for doing
the right penitence at the goal of their pilgrimage rather than being
inwardly contrite along the way.

Q 12 & 13:  separation of the sexes:  I doubt it.  The common folk  -
and we have sorted out the ?better off? to better accommodations -  
were accustomed to living in close quarters, and the guest house would
probably just have had one large room for sleeping and  eating.
I rather doubt that there were children along.  They didn?t need to
save their souls from purgatory yet, and a family with children
wouldn?t have been able to afford the time and money for a pilgrimage,
which in those days was also involved with paying for indulgences.

Okay, that is a lot of speculation, so take it with a great grain of
salt and come back with questions.  And anyone else may certainly  -
please -  correct me.

Best regards for now, Myoarin
Subject: Re: Medieval monasteries: thirteen questions
From: myoarin-ga on 15 Jan 2006 16:04 PST
 
Hi Tryx,
It seems that you have disabled G-A emails, or don't look at yours.  I
don't either, at the moment, afraid of complaints from the the author
for whom I am translating.  ;)
Myoarin
Subject: Re: Medieval monasteries: thirteen questions
From: archae0pteryx-ga on 16 Jan 2006 20:23 PST
 
Hi, Myo!

It's been a little while, yes.  I'm afraid I can't stop in every day. 
When there's a bit of a lag time, please accept my apologies.  I'll be
back as soon as I'm free.

A thousand thanks for your helpful comments; and yes, you did ask for
this!  There'll be another one posted soon.

The old ladies first:  thank you for your further thoughts and
questions, always helping me to fine-tune things and keep my focus
sharp.  As it happens, they have someone to bring in firewood, but he
doesn't live in.  Sorry, Myo, you're welcome to guess away, but I am
not going to disclose particulars of my storyline anywhere but in
private and in confidence.  No such conversation can take place here,
of course.

Q3 clarification:  I meant literally, physically.  Would you go to the
guest-house door and knock, go to the main abbey entrance and ring a
bell, go around to a special gate and utter a formulaic appeal, or
what?

Q4:  One of the books I read said that guest-houses were
expected/required to furnish the traveler with a meal and a night's
lodging.  Same source said that the monks ate bread, eggs, cheese,
fish, and vegetables.  I was wondering whether the meal would be
breakfast or supper, and hearty or minimal, or if the type and quality
of fare would very from abbey to abbey, even if the customary mealtime
did not.

Q9.  Beverage:  yes, what would it be?  Beer, mead, ale, wine, water,
barley tea?  Would, perhaps, the commnoners get ale and the better
classes of pilgrims wine?

Again, my thanks.

Tryx
Subject: Re: Medieval monasteries: thirteen questions
From: myoarin-ga on 17 Jan 2006 14:56 PST
 
Dear Tryx,

Glad that I could help.  I wasn?t fishing for your plot, just
referring to what you had said about the ladies? financial situation
and trying to see it in the context of the time.

As to the other questions, I can only surmise that the pilgrims would
have gotten an evening meal after their day?s hike, perhaps knowing
that they had to arrive in time for it prior to evensong, or whatever
term you have for evening prayers.

Drink:  I still don?t know.  Of course, if no beer is made in the
area, that would be out;  water with wine, maybe, just for color and
better taste?  I really don?t know.  Sorry.
Just to be difficult, ;)  cider could be another alternative.

Cheers, Myo
Subject: Re: Medieval monasteries: thirteen questions
From: leli-ga on 22 Jan 2006 02:16 PST
 
Hi Tryx

Had been thinking - not very successfully - about your question in odd
moments, and now your second question about monasteries has prompted
me to post these bits and pieces.

I don't think early 14c women could be sure of a welcome at a
monastery guest-house - though noblewomen were sometimes received.
Cistercians didn't accommodate women, even in outlying granges. I
couldn't find anything much about what other orders allowed, or
when/where they might supply lodgings outside the monastery.

Cluniac monks are said to have offered the least austere hospitality. 

Guests of different classes were treated differently. 

With luck some of the links below will help. The English Cistercian
site is full of interesting detail. I enjoyed looking through it, and
also liked the wonderful pictures in the French national library
online exhibition about medieval food.

Best wishes - Leli


". . . . . .chap. liii of the Rule of St. Benedict: "Let all guests
that come", it directs, "be received like Christ Himself. . . Let the
abbot pour water on the hands of the guests, and himself as well as
the whole community wash their feet . . . Let special care be taken in
the reception of the poor and of wayfarers (peregrinorum) because in
these Christ is more truly welcomed." So important was the duty of
hospitality that it was always to be considered in the construction of
the monastery. "Let the kitchen for the abbot and guests be apart by
itself, so that strangers (hospites), who are never wanting in a
monastery, may not disturb the brethren by coming at unlooked for
hours." This primitive text has left its stamp upon all the subsequent
developments of the monastic rule, from Benedict of Aniane downwards,
while the prominence of the guest-house in all monastic buildings,
beginning with the famous plan of St. Gall in the ninth century,
attests indirectly how scrupulously this tradition was respected . . .
.
 . . . we may notice how this aspect of religious life was emphasized
among the Cistercians, the most important of the Benedictine reforms.
Giraldus Cambrensis, the enemy of the monks, admits that if their
establishments had departed from primitive Cistercian simplicity, by
great expenditure and extravagance, it was their generous hospitality
which was to blame. The very arrangement of their houses seemed
designed primarily for the entertainment of pilgrims and the poor. The
lodging of both the abbot and the porter was near the main entrance,
apart from the rest of the monks. The monastery gate being always kept
shut, the porter lived near "that the guest on his first arriving
might find someone to welcome him". The "Liber Usuum" directs that the
porter should open the door saying Deo gratias, and, after a
Benedicite as a salutation, should ask the stranger who he is and what
he requires. "If he wishes to be admitted, the porter kneels to him
and bids him enter and sit down near the porter's cell while he goes
to fetch the abbot." It was the abbot's duty to dine with his guests
rather than with his monks."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07475c.htm 

"Once the porter or his deputy had announced the guest?s arrival to
the abbot, two monks were sent to pray with the newcomer and to bestow
the kiss of peace; thereafter the guest was edified with the Divine
Word. The visitor was then ready to enter the guest complex where he
was introduced to the hosteller or guestmaster, as he was also known,
who provided for guests according to their standing and relationship
with the community.(2) The guestmaster was invariably helped by at
least one lay-brother. Soon after his arrival, the visitor?s feet were
washed; this was known as the Maundy of guests.
Whereas noble visitors and their households would have been shown to
private chambers, those of lesser means (for example, travellers on
foot) would have been directed to a public hall which, by all
accounts, could be rather rough and unruly."
http://cistercians.shef.ac.uk/cistercian_life/monastic_life/hospitality/index.php



Women as guests (3 pages)
http://cistercians.shef.ac.uk/cistercian_life/women/guests/index.php

Benedictine abbey in early 14c:
"except in company of a brother of mature age none was to hold
converse with a woman"
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=37957

"In general, neither the church nor the literature of the time
encouraged women to take to the road, for fear of outbursts of immoral
behavior."
http://www.saint-jacques.info/women.htm

In certain large hostels on the route to Compostela, there was a room
for women, where nuns looked after them.
[date?]
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A8lerin_de_Saint-Jacques-de-Compostelle#Les_p.C3.A8lerines



"The early Cistercian statutes lay down guidelines for reception of
guests. They did not provide the same openness for monks not of their
order. They also were less receptive to lay visitors than were the
monks of the Cluniac observance.
http://www.idahomonks.org/sect809.htm

"Cluniac monasticism tended to be more integrated with society than
Cistercian. Its houses extended hospitality to travelers and some
Cluniac abbeys were important pilgrimage centers.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/bernard1.html


"In many ways, the organization of the Order of Cluny anticipated the
modern travel industry, but its activities were much broader in scope.
They ran the ?luxury? hotels of the days [no date - "the Middle
Ages"], offering beds of straw for two people per bed.
http://www.gr-infos.com/jacques-an.htm


Cluny 1150:
"There were brethren to the number of three hundred or more, but the
house could not support one hundred by its own outlay. There was
always a crowd of guests and a countless number of poor. The combined
yearly supply from all the deaneries was scarcely sufficient for four
months, sometimes not for three months, and the wine from all sources
was never enough for two months, nor even for one. The bread was
scanty, black, and made of bran. The wine was exceedingly watery,
tasteless, indeed, scarcely wine at all.  . . .
I made arrangements for provisions throughout the deaneries and
decreed that they should supply the community of Cluny with bread,
beans, and oil . .
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/1150Clunyprop.html



Bibliothèque nationale de France - Medieval food 
Bread was at the heart of the diet, accompanied by wine and meat  -
with veg important for peasants, who were nine-tenths of the
population.
Legumes were important for peasants and monks - grown in open fields.
The cabbage was king of the medieval garden.
A typical amount of bread per person per day was between 500g and 1
kilo. Other food was considered the "companage".
Nearly every peasant had a few vines. Light wines, often white.
Full-bodied red wine became fashionable in the 14c.
Dairy products could not be eaten on "jours maigres" - Fridays, Saturdays and Lent.
To make up for the absence of meat, monastic cuisine developed many
ways of using eggs and fish. In some times and places eggs were
forbidden on "jours maigres".
Non-meat days were worse for poor people than rich. The poor had
salted herring, pea puree [pease pottage?] or clear soup.
Food became more plentiful for ordinary people between 1250 and 1450,
with more meat in the diet.
Walnut oil in many regions - olive oil expensive.
Soup spoon and bowl might be shared.
Most people [not monks] ate "diner" between 10 and 11 in the morning,
with "souper" between 4 and 7 in the evening.
http://expositions.bnf.fr/gastro/index.htm


In the Middle Ages French peasants and many town-dwellers had a basic
diet of bread and soups. A meal was bread, wine and companage.
The monks waited to eat until 3 p.m., the canonical hour of "none". 
http://www.histgeo.com/medievale/manger.html


Food and Drink (4 pages)
http://cistercians.shef.ac.uk/cistercian_life/monastic_life/food_&_drink/


You'll find a lot more on the same website:
http://cistercians.shef.ac.uk/cistercian_life/
Even though it's about English monks, they shared many rules with
their French brothers.
The section on sheep farming mentions parchment (with illustration),
which you ask about in your other question.



"The distinction of guests in twelfth-century France
The Empress Matilda made a grant to the Cistercian abbey of Mortemer,
in Rouen for the construction of two stone houses there, to provide
separate accommodation for merchants, the poor, religious and the
rich.
http://cistercians.shef.ac.uk/fountains/buildings/guesthouse/

"The buildings devoted to hospitality are divided into three
groups,--one for the reception of distinguished guests, another for
monks visiting the monastery, a third for poor travellers and
pilgrims. The first and third are placed to the right and left of the
common entrance of the monastery,---the hospitium for distinguished
guests being placed on the north side of the church, not far from the
abbot's house; that for the poor on the south side next to the farm
buildings.
http://historymedren.about.com/od/abbey/a/11_ab_benedict_2.htm


As for your other question about livestock and cheese . . . . 
12c - Cattle replacing pigs as forests shrank. When Cistercians didn't
use sheep and goats to supply their own milk and cheese, they
benefited from grazing rights, tax and trading benefits and sales of
meat, leather and wool- especially England - 4000 sheep at Cambron.
21 fishponds at Morimond, big pond at Clairvaux
Lay brothers dried and salted fish.
Salt important at monasteries which had fishing rights and/or made cheese.
Early gifts of land included forests with rights to pig foraging,
wood, forest fruits and honey - but there was sometimes conflict with
the seigneur's hunting rights.
Owned vineyards - usually they had been given them, not planted them.
Drank and sold wine.
http://www.cister.net/disc_larmes.htm

Granges were often given over to both crops and livestock, but some
specialised: vines, olives, sheep. Clairvaux would have had several
hundred pigs, more than 3000 sheep and a good selection of cattle.
http://users.skynet.be/am012324/studium/cazabone/Cours%205.htm

 . . . and cats  . . . 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,1030837,00.html

. . . . and rabbits . . .
Domestication in the French monasteries of the late Middle Ages was a
key stage in the expansion of rabbit-keeping. In 1149 the abbot of
Corvey asked his colleague at Solignac to supply him with two pairs.
http://www.ffc.asso.fr/Publications/origine_et_histoire_du_lapin.htm
Subject: Re: Medieval monasteries: thirteen questions
From: archae0pteryx-ga on 12 Mar 2006 22:05 PST
 
Myo, you were tremendously generous with your efforts here.  I do
thank you.  Lots of good material.  Leli, you are a peach.  My
gratitude to you too.

For more than a year, I have been reading and reading and reading,
history book after history book, with different approaches, types,
scales, scopes, and levels of scholarship, and absorbing all I can and
annotating everything, creating (as is my custom) my own index for
everything I read, and watching constantly for answers to my
questions, past, present, and future--yes, I do have a good instinct
for knowing what I'll want to return to later (hence the indexes). 
Even so, there is just so much that is difficult to find out.  For
instance, I have found a large amount of information online and
offline about medieval beverages, thanks in particular to the SCA
gang, but it is virtually impossible to find out what kind of vessels
ordinary people drank out of:  tin cup, pewter tankard, wooden bowl,
earthenware mug, Coke bottle, what? what, specifically, in my chosen
time and place?  Without that little detail, I can't put my characters
in a tavern and give them a drink.

So all your helpful suggestions do take me forward.  And yet I am
still leagues or miles, if not light years, from the finish line. 
Thanks for helping me along.

Tryx

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