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Q: Would vs Were ( No Answer,   6 Comments )
Question  
Subject: Would vs Were
Category: Miscellaneous
Asked by: j_philipp-ga
List Price: $30.00
Posted: 17 Jan 2006 11:20 PST
Expires: 18 Jan 2006 18:00 PST
Question ID: 434620
Dear GARs, please explain to me the usage of "would" vs "were" in
hypothetical sentences like "If I were a king". Please give practical
examples too, and please
don't use grammar terminology. I'm from Germany, so I don't have a
"native" sense to understand this well in my daily English writing.
Thanks!

Examples:
"If Google Would be Evil"
"If Google Were Evil"
what's right, what's wrong, and why??
Answer  
There is no answer at this time.

Comments  
Subject: Re: Would vs Were
From: politicalguru-ga on 18 Jan 2006 00:47 PST
 
It is like Konjuktiv, Philipp: wuerde (would).
Subject: Re: Would vs Were
From: myoarin-ga on 18 Jan 2006 02:20 PST
 
They are both subjunctive, as the Konjunktiv is called in English.

?If I were king, ?? or ?If Google were evil, ??  are "contrary to
fact" statements.  You know it is not true, but you are supposing what
could happen  (?...?) if that were the case.
In German:  ?Wäre ich König, ...?  or "Wenn ich König wäre, ..."

?If Google would be evil, ??  is conditional (I think that is the
correct term), you are suggesting that this possibly could be the
situation, but you don?t know if G is evil or not, or you are
suggesting that in the future maybe it could be evil, or maybe would
want to be evil.

I think in German those two possibilities would be expressed differently.
You don?t know if it is so:  ?Sollte Google böse sein, ??
In the other situation:  ?Wollte Google böse sein, ??  oder ?Sollte
Google böse werden, ??

Actually, that last ?sollte? was supposed to be ?wollte?, but it
nicely illustrates the problems in both languages.  You recognize
immediately the different meanings in German:  ?wollte? indicates
Google?s possible intention; ?sollte? just suggests that it could be
the situation or could happen.

Would and Wollen express volition, wanting something, but in English
we are sloppy sometimes  (who says ?I shall? and ?We shall? to
indicate future tense and uses ?I will? only to express intention or
desire?
But I got caught in my own trap, mentioning the conditional.  I
believe that in perfectly correct English, that would be:  ?If Google
should be evil, ??,  (no suggestion of volition).

SO: ?If Google would be evil, ?? correctly would (?!) suggest the
possibility that G could want or intend to be evil.

Confused?  Maybe I shouldn?t have started.  And most of the discussion
has nothing to do with the way most people speak and write these days:
 ?If Google is/was evil, ??, whereby "is" is not subjunctive, although
some speakers might continuing the sentence so that it should be. 
"Was" could be the past tense, but again some speakers may think it is
the correct subjunctive form, confused by the feeling that the
singular form should follow a single subject and that "were" can only
follow a plural subject.

Now everyone can correct me, including you and Scriptor and
Politicalguru on my German.

Myoarin
Subject: Re: Would vs Were
From: j_philipp-ga on 18 Jan 2006 06:00 PST
 
I find this very complicated. Thanks for your comments.

"If Google would be evil", is this wrong?
"If Google were evil", is this correct?

If I take your German examples, both "Wenn Google böse wäre" as well
es "Sollte Google böse werden" make sense. (The latter sounds a bit
more like "If Google would become evil".)

I sense a rule of thumb here from your explanation, though I don't
know if it's correct: "would be" is like saying "should this thing
happen in the future, then". Whereas "were" is like saying "in the
hypothetical case that this were already the case".

So it would be wrong to say, "If this would be the case today",
because it's not the future but the present? Is that a good rule of
thumb?

Thanks!
Subject: Re: Would vs Were
From: jupdfl-ga on 18 Jan 2006 06:24 PST
 
"If Google would be evil, I'd sell all my stock"
"If Google were evil, I'd sell all my stock"

The first is very awkward. (It sounds like you are wishing Google to
be evil for some reason.) The second is gramatically correct. So it's
not necessarily that one is right and one is wrong, it's just that
they have two different meanings.

Where a LOT of people get confused between is "was" and "were".

"If Google was evil..."   WRONG
"If Google were evil..."  CORRECT

"If this would be the case today" again is awkward and I you wouldn't
want to say it that way.  Instead, you would want to say "If this WERE
the case today..."
Subject: Re: Would vs Were
From: myoarin-ga on 18 Jan 2006 16:12 PST
 
Ah, Philipp, you are a Researcher.
I don't know if it complicated or if my attempt to explain was.  I
rather expect that German speakers with their stricter grammar and
more frequent use of the Konjunktiv may have a better insight into
finer points of English grammar than many native speakers do.
(But then, in Germany it is claimed by many, that one can't master
German without learning Latin, but that is mainly because they've been
saying that for centuries and fail to teach German grammar, especially
in the last 35 years.  Sorry about the aside.)

"If Google would be evil" is not wrong, but it depends on what
follows, as Jup's example shows, but now after spending a couple of
minutes trying to think of a following phrase, Jup may be entirely
right, at least in modern usage or with this example.
I think we would say and write:  "If Google wanted to be evil, it
would encourage spam."  or "If Google were to become evil, I would
sell my stock."
So I am agreeing entirely with your next couple of lines.

And I agree with your rule of thumb and the last lines.  :)  but am
open to correction.

As I mentioned with "was" and "were", the simplification of English
grammar with its reduction of the number of different verb forms gives
rise to incorrect usage, loss of the recognition and distinction of
the subjunctive.

Example: "should", most often used in the context:  "You should do
this".  This frequent usage undermines the word's usage in the
subjunctive in the way "sollte" is used.  "Should Google be evil" or
"If Google should be evil" is raising a question (stellt eine Frage im
Raum), but since this meaning is in such contrast to that of the other
and much more common usage, it is avoided, falling into disuse.

More confusion?  The Germans will probably be the last people who try
to speak English correctly since they can recognize the Germanic roots
of the language and try to project German's more inflected forms onto
English when the native speakers and the masses of non-native speakers
have forgotten the correct forms.

That is to say, I think that you are interested in a question that
many native speakers "couldn't care less about."

And while we are on the subject, I really respect the standard of
English maintained by Researchers.  Thank you!

Regards, Myoarin
Subject: Re: Would vs Were
From: j_philipp-ga on 18 Jan 2006 18:00 PST
 
Thanks Myoarin! I'm enjoying your asides, as well as your explanations :)

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