Now I need something a little more obscure. How would you render the
expression "clapping the dove" ("die Taube klatschen")?
It is all right that the phrase does not make sense. You don't know
what it means, and neither do I. I simply want it grammatical and
idiomatic for the time and place--by a standard of plausibility, not
scholarly perfection.
Likewise the phrase "May Night" (as if referring to one particular night).
Thank you,
Archae0pteryx |
Request for Question Clarification by
scriptor-ga
on
28 Nov 2004 06:02 PST
We are slowly but surely approaching the limits of my knowledge - at
least as the medieval Flemish idiom is concerned. But I'll try my best
on this one.
The modern Dutch words for "dove" are "duif" and "duive", with the
"ui" pronounced as something close to the German "ü". In modern Low
German (which is, strictly speaking, not a written language), it's
"Duve". I remember that the older form was "Düve" and that the umlaut
has been dropped over the centuries. So I assume that a word sounding
like "Düve" resp. "duive" was the old term for dove used in both old
Flemish and old Low German.
In past centuries, all Germanic languages were more consequent in
declining nouns, which has been simplified over the centuries. If I
take "die Taube klatschen" as an example, the accusative would have
been visible some hundred years ago: "die Tauben klatschen" (though
Tauben still is singular). Today's Low German has still preserved some
relics of this. I assume that medieval Flemish was also far more
consistent in using declinations than modern Dutch. I could imagine
that in the given timeframe, they would have said "de duiven" for the
accusative form ove duive.
For "clapping", I would choose the word "klatsen", which has the same
root as the German "klatschen". It's an old word, and I don't have any
reason to believe that it has changed much in either language.
So "clapping the dove" would be, in my opinion, "de duiven klatsen"
(or, in a modern Dutch version: De duive klatsen).
As for "May Night", I would choose "een meiennacht" ("a May night" -
the modification of "mei" to "meien" indicates that it is an old word.
Like in the German "Maiennacht", which is only used in poetry now).
Also possible: "een nacht in mei" (a night in May) - an expression so
basic that it can't have changed much since the Middle Ages.
Is that what you need?
Regards,
Scriptor
|
Clarification of Question by
archae0pteryx-ga
on
28 Nov 2004 15:25 PST
Hi, Scriptor,
Would it be a first for you if we actually did reach the limits of
your knowledge in this realm? I have an idea that there might be some
sort of GA prize for me if I actually did post a boundary marker on
you.
However, we're not there yet. We are doing just fine so far, and I
thank you. I am perfectly satisfied with "de duiven klatsen" (it's
the old form I want), and I very much appreciate having all the
explanation that goes with it. As a student of language myself, I
just eat that stuff up.
As for "May Night," it can't be "a May night." It has to be "May
Night" as a name, in the sense of *the* May Night, as if it were a
specific event like Midsummer's Night or All Hallow's Eve...or Beltane
or Samhain. You would have to be able to say something like "a feast
is held on May Night" or "fortune shines on girls who marry on May
Night" and have it refer to a known event that occurs at a certain
time, such as, let's say, the first full moon.
Would that idea change your phrasing at all?
Thank you,
Archae0pteryx
P.S. Do you do French?
|
Request for Question Clarification by
scriptor-ga
on
28 Nov 2004 17:34 PST
I think, a definite article would already solve the problem: "de
meiennacht" - "the May Night". And though capitalization of proper
names was not yet fully developed in medieval times, a capital "M"
would stress that it refers to a particular night: "de Meiennacht".
That would be the easiest and also the most logical solution, in my
opinion. Without additional explications, it would make clear that not
any, but a special night in May is meant. However, if you have
something different in mind, please let me know and I will see if I
can find another solution.
As for my command of the French language ... it exists, but I can't
say if it would fit with your needs.
Best regards,
Scriptor
|
Clarification of Question by
archae0pteryx-ga
on
28 Nov 2004 17:44 PST
That will do nicely, Scriptor. Thank you. Please post your answer.
Archae0pteryx
|
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