Who/what entities/companies provide high volume (i.e., not low volume
custom street signs) manufacturing of your basic metal street sign for
towns, cities, counties, municipalities, etc. in the U.S.?

Or, is it possible that the municipalities manufacture the street
signs themselves (please provide reference examples if this is the
case)?
  
Context: I was recently told by a general sign manufacturer that
municipalities, towns, counties, etc. manufacture their own street
signs.  I inquired as to whether he meant that municipalities, etc.
contracted out the manufacturing to private companies?  He said, "No,
municipalities, etc. manufacture street signs themselves." I find this
hard to believe, unless the manufacturing is being done by prison or
correctional facilities.  Is it possible that public agencies would
have their own manufacturing facilities for such a thing?  Either he
is wrong or I am missing something.  Please help!

I'd like to help answer this question for you.  First, a little
background into street signage, and then I have a question for you to
help me seal the deal:

Civil engineers (that either work for the government as employees of
the state or county Dept. of Transportation, or as private consultants
under contract to the DOT) design transportation infrastructure
systems that include both surface (roadway/highway/etc.) and
signage/routing (signs, surface striping, surface arrows, etc.)
construction plans and specifications.  Geometric design (design
speed, allowable horz./vertical curve radius/length, plan/profile,
cut/fill requirements, etc.) and pavement design (base/subbase
thickness/material, top material, material-related maintenance, etc.)
follow certain design manuals and standards (a whole other topic),
while signage design (sign type, placement, size, reflectivity, post
type, anchor system, etc.) follows either (or both) the federal or
state MUTCD (Manual on Traffic Control Devices).  Feel free to peruse
the online version, if you're up for a jim dandy of a time:

http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/

For a quick example, let's find a simple Stop Sign (look under Chapter
2B:  Regulatory Signs).  From Table 2B-1, the MUTCD Code for a stop
sign is R1-1, and the typical size on a typical ["Conventional"] road
is 30x30 inches, but at a minimum it must be 24x24 inches (which is
taken on the top and side edges of the hexagon).  Click on the text
link to Section 2B.04 within that table, and continue to then on the
text link to Figure 2B-1, and you'll see a right pretty picture of
said stop sign (and the direct link should be: 
http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/HTM/2003r1/part2/fig2b-01_longdesc.htm).

Engineers create signage sheets (usually called Sign and Marking
Plans) within a construction plan set that show a plan view (like
you're looking down from an airplane overhead) with every sign
proposed for the new (or widened, or reworked) roadway, along with its
particular information (Type, MUTCD code, size, etc.).  This
information is consolidated on another sheet in table format, usually
called the Sign & Marking Schedule, which is in effect, a material or
item list that makes ordering the correct type and quantity easy for
the contractor.

A set of contractors are approved by the DOT based on their quality of
and ability to do the work, and from those, the winning contractor is
chosen based on which can perform the work the most affordably. 
Contractors pay for a set of the construction plans the engineer has
prepared and turned over to the DOT, and do estimates for quantities
and labor.  These are sealed and delivered to the DOT by a set date
and time, then the submittals are opened by DOT reps publicly, and the
lowest bidder wins.  A contract is signed, construction schedule set,
and so forth.

Besides coordinating the schedule, labor, and equipment, the
contractor must order all the supplies, which takes us back to the
Sign & Marking Schedule previously mentioned.  And here's where we get
to the guts of your question...who does the contractor order the signs
from?  To my knowledge and experience (with very close ties to civil
engineering), these signs come from a private sign manufacturer, who
produces signs per applicable standards and specifications specific to
the area of their intended use.

However, if you would like to provide (or feel comfortable providing)
me with the state/county/city in which this question of sign
manufacture has been raised, I feel certain I can do a little more
research and tell you exactly who (companies or entities) make the
signs, as well as who (companies) the local road contractors are for
that area.
Then we can really nail the lid on this coffin (I couldn't think of a
road-related cliche' to end on...let me give that a whirl...'spray the
tack down, roll the asphalt out, stripe the sides up, and slap the
"slow traffic keep right" signs down on that bad boy' )...how 'bout
that?!

---

Request for Answer Clarification by chrisny123-ga on 20 Jan 2006 07:34 PST

Deepseep,
Great answer so far!  I plan to tip you 100% (i.e.,$20) to go further
with this line of questioning if you are up for it?

Just to focus things a bit, let's talk specifically about "street
signs" rather than traffic signs(stop signs, caution signs, etc.). 
What I mean by street signs are 2 types:
1) the basic small signs with the name of the streets on them.  There
are millions of these signs on simple posts throughout cities and
towns across the country.
2) the larger street signs at major traffic intersections that are
mounted directly on large posts, or are mounted on the arm of such
large posts and hang out over the street.

As you suggest, can you provide me with names(contact information, if
possible?) of the companies or entities that manufacture street signs
for Nassau and Suffolk counties or the large municipilaties within
Nassau and Suffolk Counties in New York (this is known as Long
Island)? Some of the local road contractors chosen by DOT for these
areas would also be helpful.

Context:
It makes more sense to me, as you stated, that private sign
manufacturers would be the ones to manufacture the street signs, but I
do want to make sure that in the Long Island area, the municipalities
themselves are not manufacturing the street signs (I have no idea how
they would do this - perhaps using prison facilities).  It is possible
that I just misunderstood what this sign manufacture was telling me.

Many thanks!

---

Clarification of Answer by deepseep-ga on 20 Jan 2006 10:15 PST

You are certainly very generous!  I appreciate your feedback and
additional focus/clarification, and will indeed get right on it. 
Thank you very much!

---

Clarification of Answer by deepseep-ga on 20 Jan 2006 13:11 PST

To reiterate your specific sign type interests (so as to double check
we're on the same page),
I understand the two (2) types to be conventional street name signs,
and fall under:

USDOT FHWA MUTCD "Chapter 2D - Guide Signs - Conventional Roads"
(http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/HTM/2003r1/part2/part2d1.htm)

1.  Small Street Name Signs - 
          Section 2D.38
(http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/HTM/2003r1/part2/part2d2.htm#section2D38)
          Figure 2D-1
(http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/HTM/2003r1/part2/fig2d-08_longdesc.htm)
          MUTCD Code D3-1 (bottom left item, example "E MAIN ST")

2.  Large Street Signs - 
          Large Street Name Signs -
               Section 2D.38
(http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/HTM/2003r1/part2/part2d2.htm#section2D38)
               Figure 2D-1
(http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/HTM/2003r1/part2/fig2d-08_longdesc.htm)
               MUTCD Code D3-2 (center items, example "Johnson Blvd NEXT SIGNAL")
          Route, Junction and Directional Assemblies -
               Route Sign Assemblies - Section 2D.27
(http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/HTM/2003r1/part2/part2d2.htm#section2D27)
               Junction Sign Assemblies - Section 2D.28
(http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/HTM/2003r1/part2/part2d2.htm#section2D28)
               Directional Assemblies - Section 2D.30
(http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/HTM/2003r1/part2/part2d2.htm#section2D30)
               Figure 2D-6 
                    Sheet 1
(http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/HTM/2003r1/part2/fig2d-06-1_longdesc.htm)
                    Sheet 2
(http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/HTM/2003r1/part2/fig2d-06-2_longdesc.htm)
                    Sheet 3
(http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/HTM/2003r1/part2/fig2d-06-3_longdesc.htm)

The next point to tie down is area of interest, which you list as
Nassau County and Suffolk County, New York (Long Island).
The major players are NYDOT and both counties' respective road
departments (minor players are the cities' depts):

1.  New York State Department of Transportation, NYSDOT
(http://www.dot.state.ny.us/)

2a.  Nassau County, NY
          Government (http://www.nassaucountyny.gov)
          Public Works Dept (Administration, Engineering, Operations),
(516) 571-6956 (http://www.nassaucountyny.gov/agencies/DPW/index.html)
	Based on the following two statements, I deduce that the County
oversees the design of roadways by private consultants,
	and handles maintenance, cleaning, and repairs themselves or through
respective consultants as well:
	    - "The Department of Public Works has exclusive charge and
supervision of the design, construction, repair, maintenance...
	    of all streets...under the jurisdiction of the county."
(http://www.nassaucountyny.gov/agencies/DPW/overview.html)
	    - "The Department of Public Works is in the process of updating
files of architectural/professional engineering firms
	    who wish to be considered for future work."
(http://www.nassaucountyny.gov/agencies/DPW/qualiifications.html)
	Important Phone Numbers
(http://www.nassaucountyny.gov/agencies/DPW/telephone.html)
	  - Engineering, (516) 571-9608
	    - Signs, Mr. Riverio (516) 571-6807
	      - Sign Shop, Mr. Martignette, Mgr (516) 571-6807
		(Phone Conversation, 1/19/06, 2:20pm Eastern)
		Mr. Martignette (Nassau County NY Sign Shop Manager) explained that
each jurisdiction (town, village, city, county)
		buys sheet metal and makes their own signs at their own sign shops. 
Some signs (such as "No Parking") are pre-
		fabricated and therefore purchased elsewhere, but all specific signs
(street name signs) are made in house.
		(He as very friendly and helpful - I really enjoyed talking with him).
	  - Traffic Signs & Markings, (516) 571-6907 (initial call, left
message with Mr. Davis, then dialed back to Engineering office, above)
	VERDICT:  Nassau County makes their own signs in their own sign shop.
 Shop manager says all jurisdictions make their own signs.
	DATA TO CHECK:	All municipalities/jurisdications on Long Island make
their own signs.

2b.  Oyster Bay, NY (sample Nassau County town)
          Nassau County Town listing
(http://www.nassaucountyny.gov/website/AG/Federal/towns.html)
          Government, (516) 624-6100 (http://oysterbaytown.com)
          Public Works
(http://oysterbaytown.com/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC&SEC={8E10384D-990F-4315-969E-E4EC70D71567})
          Directory (http://oysterbaytown.com/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC&SEC={13077BFB-52AE-494F-91F9-08EB45AB4A02})
	Highway, (516) 677-5935
		(Phone Conversation, 1/19/06, 3:40pm Eastern)
		Oyster Bay (public works/highway department) has their own sign shop
and make all road signs, including street name
		signs, within their jurisdiction.
	VERDICT:  [At least this particular town in sample checked] towns
make their own signs in their own sign shops.

3a.  Suffolk County, NY
          Government (http://www.co.suffolk.ny.us)
          Public Works,  (631) 852-4010
(http://www.co.suffolk.ny.us/webtemp3.cfm?dept=14&ID=108)
	"The [DPW] constructs, maintains and operates county properties and
designs, constructs and maintains county roads...."
	- Traffic Engineering, Mr. Bornholdt, Director of Traffic Safety,
(631) 852-4081[	Traffic Safety, Planning, Design and Operations]
	      (http://www.co.suffolk.ny.us/webtemp3.cfm?dept=40&id=1245)
	      "Design and supervision of traffic control device installations
on County roads; Review of construction plans from a traffic safety
	      and engineering perspective."
		(Phone Conversation, 1/19/06, 3:00pm Eastern)
		Suffolk County has a sign shop and makes all county signs; however,
street name signs are the city/town/village responsibility.
		I asked if the county makes signs for installation in unincorporated
parts of the county...the answer is no, because there may
		not BE any unincorporated portions of the county (hey...i'm from the
South, where it's not quite as densely populated!).
	VERDICT:  Suffolk County makes their own signs in their own sign
shop, with the exception of street name signs, which each city makes.
	DATA TO CHECK:  The cities make their own signs in Suffolk County.

3b.  Port Jefferson, NY (sample Suffolk County village)
          Suffolk County Towns & Villages
(http://www.co.suffolk.ny.us/suffolk.cfm?id=5)
          Government (http://www.portjeff.com)
          Public Works/Highway Dept, (631) 473-4733
(http://www.portjeff.com/directory.html)
		(Phone Conversation, 1/19/06, 3:30pm Eastern)
		The village has their own sign shop, in which they make local street name signs.
	VERDICT:  [At least this particular one in sample checked] villages
make their own street name signs in their own sign shop.

Summary:

WHEWWWW!  (are you still with me?  wake up! wake up!).  Alright, based
on the research and telephone interview documentation above, it looks
like the villages, towns/cities, and counties on Long Island, New York
do in fact all have their own sign shops and make their own street
name signs.
Lesson learned:  Question clarification and nitty-gritty location
details make all the difference in investigating and shoring up facts.

Unsolicited statement:  Aren't states' rights and individuality a
beautiful thing?  Perhaps the only unappreciative perspective comes
from civil engineers
that practice and/or have projects across many jurisdictions, because
keeping up with each individual municipality's regulations is an
exercise in
frustration (or is it patience?) when designing plan sets and working
up supporting design calculations.

Crazy MUTCD signs of the day:  
(http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/HTM/2003r1/part2/fig2c-10_longdesc.htm):
- W11-4:  Free Wheel' Cow...and I've seen both sign and unfenced cow
(and cow patties) in the road northwest of Austin, TX
- W15-1:  I have yet, however, to see anybody drag their seesaw out in
the street, or ride it into town...but maybe someday, somewhere...

(http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/HTM/2003r1/part2/fig2h-05-1_longdesc.htm):
- RG-160:  Intuitive nightmare?  What?

(http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/HTM/2003r1/part2/fig2h-05-3_longdesc.htm):
- RL-040:  Don't Make This Guy Mad
- RL-190:  Steals from the Rich [While Sporting Green Tights]

(http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/HTM/2003r1/part2/fig2h-05-4_longdesc.htm):
- RS-030:  Candidate answer (or befouling) for Riddle of the Sphinx


Search Strategy and Terms:
Google key words:  MUTCD, NYDOT, Nassau County NY, Westbury NY area
codes, Suffolk County NY, Yaphank NY
Mapquest Search:  Westbury NY; Yaphank NY
Telephone Search:  Dialed Nassau County Traffic Signs/Markings (left
message); dialed NCo Engineering, directed through to Sign Shop


Follow up:  You seem interested in sign manufacturers; let me know if
the answer to your question leaves you needing information in a
different direction.
I enjoyed working with you; please let me know if there's additional
information you would like to know.  Take care.  Deepseep.

---

Request for Answer Clarification by chrisny123-ga on 20 Jan 2006 15:47 PST

Awesome Deepseep!  This is really getting to the heart of the matter. 
I'm now changing my tip from $20 to $40 for the work so far.

Next steps:
Over the weekend I plan to review the information you have provided in
more detail.  As you surmise, I will most certainly ask for some
additional information after my review.  I would be very happy to have
you assist me with obtaining the new information and I would plan to
increase the tip accordingly.

Thank you for your help.  I look forward to more work together.
Regards,
Chris

---

Clarification of Answer by deepseep-ga on 20 Jan 2006 21:11 PST

Yes, I'll check in over the weekend for activity.  Don't work to hard, now!

great job!!

I know that in Phoenix, AZ the city has a sign shop which produces all
needed signs. There was a recent show on the city cable channel
showing the process.

Just wanted to say that I got a good lugh from your "cliches" there at
the end. Thanks for putting a smile on my face! :)

chrisny123-ga:
Dang...sorry for the poor-looking format; I typed it all in MSWord
while researching and then pasted the text into the comment window (as
recommended by Google).  I hope this doesn't make reviewing my answer
too tedious.

richardmtl-ga:
Thank you, thank you.  In my latest answer clarification, I included
links to some hokey standard signs (and added even hokey-er personal
commentary...which unfortunately solidifies that I am no comedian).

jmanly,
Thank you for your comment.  You were right on target.

richardmtl,
enjoying your alter ego humor with deepseep.  keep us smiling!  this is fun :-#

Deepseep,
Please do not take this as a suggestion for our thread, but for future
reference, if I submitted a Question in this area over the weekend,
would you be likely to answer it.  i.e., do you work on the weekends? 
in my case, there is often no rest for the weary . . .

Chris

Deepseep,
Of course you have answered my initial question. Please do not feel
any obligation to remain preoccupied with this thread.  I realize that
you may have other Questions that you would like to Answer. If you
need to move on, I will take care of the great rating that I am going
to give you and the tip payments.

On the other hand, it is possible that after I review things I might
want to pursue this thread further. The work could be done early next
week or perhaps a couple of weeks hence.  I just want to let you know
that once I have decided on the needed additional information, I am
happy to give you the option of when or if we will pursue this
further.

Beyond this thread, I expect that I will have additional questions
related to the supply chain for the Sign Industry.  From customers
(beyond municipalities and including private sector businesses) to the
manufacturers, including vendors and distributors in between.

At some point I would need to think about confidentiality.  I wonder
if there is any way to make this thread or a new thread confidential? 
Oh well, just thinking "out loud"

Bye, for now.

You sure are good at giving me that "Aw Shucks" fuzzy feeling with all
your nice complements and generosity; you must know that phrase,
"Flattery gets you everywhere," because you're good at it.  Ha!  Ok,
here is my suggestion - since I have answered your question entered
initially, and there may be a bit of down-time before moving forward,
it might be a good idea to wrap up this thread, so as to spare
potential loose ends (here I go with the overly associated cliche's
again...).  Your next question will be "educated" by what we've found
out in this question/answer iteration, but sounds like it will be a
"new" question in a slightly different direction all the same.  What
do you think?

I certainly want a chance at your next question, and I do keep close
tabs on the Miscellaneous question category.  However, were I to lose
out on the toss-up for it, there is another one of my colleagues who
can/will/want/excel at taking the ball and running with it for you too
(some of these answers impress the heck out of me!).

Take care, and thanks so much again.  Deepseep.

Deepseep,
Now, who is the complimenterian?  In New York, we don't trust this
kind of positive feedback, but since it comes from a nice guy down
south (my former home), I will accept it at face value.  Ha, Ha!!

Back to the weary work (and my flattery).  Great suggestion!  I have
closed out the thread and taken care of everything.  Beyond this, I
have one last thought:  I may very well need some part-time consulting
work in this area that would go beyond a Google Question and Answer
session.  In addition, it may require some confidentiality.  Is it
possible to get in touch with you or your colleague by email?

I very much look forward to working with you on my next Question in this area!
Best regards,
Chris

ChrisNY - our last comments were removed, and I therefore couldn't
document the info you listed.  Mine is deepseepGA preceding the yodel
- just like yours.  Take care.

Hi DeepSeep,
I sent you a Yodel.  In addition, you will see one or two new
sign-related questions coming up on GA possibly tonite or tomorrow.
Regards