Hi

As some of your answers may be expected, and that?s O.K. with me, I
would appreciate some good advice, please.

Background
I have developed a "music collection manager" that is based on a very
unique rating engine. Its components are conceptual. User fills in a
special format card for every cd. The data that?s produced provides
powerful music management for the entire music collection. It works
great on all styles of music.
 The basic business concept, is selling these special cards over the
internet. The idea can be further developed, depending on its rate of
success.  Selling cards over the net may not really sound very
attractive. However, In this case, the cards are just simple tools,
and what purchaser really gains, is an outstanding unique music
collection manager.

Concerns 
Things may not work out for the best, and I may be selling peanuts.
But then, there also is a very good chance for success. In this case,
any major company could take over my idea and "swallow me up". I
guess, this is where a patent (or copyright?) is required.

Problem
I have a registered patent (on a different idea) in the U.S. that has
already cost me quite a fortune. I cannot afford putting in too much
of my own money into this current venture.

Questions and advice
1) Protection: copyrights or patent? My understanding is that my
concept is related as to being an idea, and therefore not protected by
copyrights. In this case please do not spend too much time on
copyrights answering. (If copyrights is applicable, is it enough to
consider its publishing over the net as good proof of me being the
owner of rights? Is this protection real and effective)?

2)If copyrights do not apply: What are my best options of proceeding,
and protecting my idea, at reasonable cost from my own pocket(under 1k$)?


3)My earlier patent lawyer has advised me not to apply a provision on
my own, for it will not be efficient. Is that correct?

4)I am not greedy, and I am willing to share on profits with a
suitable partner. How can I successfully target and seal a good
partnership? With whom? What if potential partners refuse to sign a
nondisclosure agreement?



Any leads will be gratefully appreciated.

As I have raised quite some questions, I am ready to pay 15$ each, for
question no.1 & 3, 30$ for question no. 2, and 40$ for question no. 4.
 The complete answer will total 100$.

 I would also appreciate your advice, and experienced user's comments.

Thanks in advance for your excellent service.

---

Request for Question Clarification by answerguru-ga on 12 Dec 2004 14:51 PST

Hello there,

Since you have assigned prices to each of your questions, I would
repost each of them at the values you've specified (including the
background info in each one). This will maximize the chances of your
questions getting answered.

answerguru-ga

---

Clarification of Question by nelias-ga on 12 Dec 2004 15:16 PST

Whatever you feel is right to do, is O.K. with me.

Thanks

A few Comments:

In general terms, a copyright is protection of written words, such as
for books, manuscripts, poems even recorded songs.

A patent is protection over a "mechanical" or working object.

In your case, a patent would protect the "script" that creates your
music collection manager.  A copyright would only protect the words
you write to describe your product.

Either case, the "protection" is self-governing, meaning you as the
holder of the copyright or patent must be the "police" to see if
someone is using your idea, and the recourse would be a civil law
suit.

hope this helps clear up a few concepts.

I hope an offical answer is provided by the researchers.

If I understood you correctly, the meaning of "a patent would protect
the "script", means the idea itself will not be protected, but only
its script? Copyrights do not really seem to be the right option for
this case. Well, something has to work.

Thanks for your comment. This is really interesting stuff. Let's see
how discussion develops.

nelias-ga

I reckon a trademark would be your best bet.

What is a trademark or service mark? 

A trademark is a word, phrase, symbol or design, or a combination of
words, phrases, symbols or designs, that identifies and distinguishes
the source of the goods of one party from those of others.

A service mark is the same as a trademark, except that it identifies
and distinguishes the source of a service rather than a product.
Throughout this booklet, the terms "trademark" and "mark" refer to
both trademarks and service marks.

Do Trademarks, Copyrights and Patents protect the same things?

No. Trademarks, copyrights and patents all differ. A copyright
protects an original artistic or literary work; a patent protects an
invention. For copyright information, go to
http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/. For patent information, go to
http://www.uspto.gov/main/patents.htm.



Lets take Coke for example.  The chemical forumla to make Coke is
patented.  The Coke name is trademarked.  The Slogans, advertisement
are copyright protected.

Pepsi can not use the same formula ( Patent), can't call it COKE
(trademark), can't use Coke's slogans (copyright).

----
So to your orginal question How can you protect your Business Idea..
Well buntly you can't.  In the business world, people always make a
better mousetrap, when a change is made to that mousetrap, a new
patent protects the "new moustrap" from being made that same way.

Your concept, which is basically it seems a "script" or "program" to
create a music collection.  I can develope one as well, as long as I
don't use your exact "program" and change a simple variation to your
"output".  If you trademark the name "Music Collection Manager".  My
project could be called "Music Source Manager" and if you feel that I
infriged upon your concept, idea, etc, you would need to Sue me, and
prove My program, concept, is a true copy of yours. This would be
hard, because I made Distinctive changes from your orginal.

Getting back to the Coke -Pespi...basically the same Idea of having a
Cola derivated drink, changes name and formula slightly to create a
whole new product, perfectly Legal with no infringements.

So what can you do?  Build the best damm "mousetrap", patent it,
continue to Improve upon your "Mousetrap" patent each change. 
Hopefully you will Stay ahead of the competition, in the research and
development of your "mousetrap" so that it is not economically sound
for someone to attempt to build a better "mousetrap" than yours.

Now if there is only one way to build your product to produce a
desired result, think Lightbulb for example, then any challenges to
build a better Lightbulb, might have to incoperate certain elements of
the orginal "lightbulb" in order to produce a better one.  That being
the case, the orginal patent holder of the "lightbulb" would need to
be compensated and give permission for the production and Sale of the
"new Lightbulb".  Hence Patents are usually for unique Inventions,
something that has not been done before, or a process that has not
been done before to produce a desired outcome.

Once again, without knowing the scope of your "Music Collection
Manager" you should ask yourself these questions.  Is there only one
way to make such an item? Is there only one way for the product to
produce the desired outcome?  I assume you answer will be no on both
acounts.  Therefor, if the product is economically sound investment,
others will attempt to build there own version of your "mousetrap".

Your Patent, trademark and or copyright will ony come into play if
"you" can prove in a court of Law that the "new Mousetrap" has
compents of your orginal mousetrap, uses a name simliar to your
"mousetrap" to promote their "New mousetrap", or uses advertisement
that is the same as your "Mousetrap".   Each scenario is highly
unlikely, because if the "New Mousetrap Company" before investing
capital, will make sure there product is "Distinctively Different"
from your "mousetrap" to avoid such litigation and possible capital
losses.

Let see what other say...but i think this gives you a general Overview
of the business models without going into alot of Legalese.

What would I do?...

First research that there are no other products on the market, or
"patent pending" that may cause me to be sued.  Create your product. 
You will need a working example, with scematics, design, etc if and
when you attempt a patent.  Attempt to sell my product.  If product is
successful, use profits for Patent. if unsucessful, scrape the
project.

Last bit of comment.  The patent holder, trademark holder, copyright
Holder, as I state before are the sole parties responsibe to "POLICE"
"Investiagte" and seek to prove in a court of law any infringement. 
No Agency, police force, extra will be your watchdog...If you suspect
any infrigement, then the authorites can become involved, but they
will not be out there LOOKING for you to find an offender.  Think
Napster, it was operating for an exended period of time until Lar
Ulrich of Metalica sued.  The govt', police, etc did nothing until the
Metalica Law suit.

More comments?

I am impressed by the scope of your answer. First comes first, meaning
a real thanks for your detailed comments Mr.blackbeltdomain-ga
I would like to relate to some of your points, and perhaps clarify
some unclear issues.

The nature of the idea behind "music collection manager".

I have never meant to claim any ownership on "managing music". The
protection that I have been seeking is on heart of the system, and
that?s my "rating engine". I do not intend to claim and protect other
components such as rating music, managing music, or selling cards. I
simply seek protection on the unique principals used on this
particular system for rating music.
There are some other methods already known and used, but fact is that
as much as they have their own appeal, they have not been able to be
attractive enough for making themselves commercial. I believe that the
concept I have been using on my rating engine is powerful enough to
justify its commercialization.


As to your examples of patents. There are possibly unlimited ways to
relate to music, and classify it. I have chosen something very
different and yet also very practical. For this particular approach of
classifying music, there is no other way, and no other formula that
would produce this outcome. There are many other ways, but then, their
outcome would be different, or in simply meaning, unattractive. So
back to your questions: "Is there only one way to make such an item?
Is there only one way for the product to produce the desired outcome?"
My answer is a definite YES! With that been said, I would conclude
that my case is similar to your example of a "Light bulb". There is
only one way of achieving similar results to what my rating engine
delivers.

Thanks, and welcome to additional comments.

nelias-ga

""Is there only one way to make such an item?
Is there only one way for the product to produce the desired outcome?"
My answer is a definite YES! With that been said, I would conclude
that my case is similar to your example of a "Light bulb". There is
only one way of achieving similar results to what my rating engine
delivers.""


More Free Comments:

That being the case, then the Patent would be your failsafe
"protective" measure. As you know a costly endeavor.

You could take it in stages. Seek a copy right on the Database that
encompases you Programming code, since that is a unigue forumla to
your outcome. Once sales are sufficient and profitable enough to
mandate expansion, seek the patent.

Check this out:  http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ65.html
about copyright of a database.  This might be your answer.  :)

FYI..I would render to guess that 90% of all websites that use the
copyright name or symbol on their respective sites nethert have a true
legal copyright or have ever applied.

Eric

Thanks Eric

Your comments are very helpful. I would also like to ask you the following:
The key for my protection is protecting my rating engine. It uses a
key parameter that could be used by anyone, but fact is that it has
not yet been done, not of what I know, and not of anything I have
searched over the net. Was it done successfully, it would have been
somewhat popular, or at least known of. Anyway, to your note "Seek a
copy right on the Database that encompasses you Programming code,
since that is a unique formula to your outcome.." I'm not sure about
it, since my formula can be played around with in many ways. What's
important in it is that certain key parameter used. Let's put it this
way: I would like to secure the possibility of anybody else using this
key parameter in rating music.
I can not be positive about success ratio. It may attract a little of
interest, and stay on low profile without justification of further
expense. But there is also quite a good chance for good
commercialization. Now back to my question.
Suppose 1) I do some minimum registration, as a simple provision, and
2) start with a small commercial site. (I understand that copyrights
do not compulsory require official registration as long as there is
proof of person who published at first, including proof of presence
over the net). Are these two measures safe enough for my purpose?

Thanks again Eric, 
Elias

P.S.
I shall be able to respond back again only tomorrow evening.

Hello Elias,

My first suggestion would be to Ask Your Question Again, now that you
have a better grasp upon the process.  Offical Researchers have a
tendancy not to get involved to questions that already have multiple
replies or discourse such as this.  I am not an offical researcher, so
all my Info is just "Free Advice".

----------
Suppose 1) I do some minimum registration, as a simple provision, and
2) start with a small commercial site. (I understand that copyrights
do not compulsory require official registration as long as there is
proof of person who published at first, including proof of presence
over the net). Are these two measures safe enough for my purpose?

Now to your lastest inquiry.  Patents, Trademarks, copyrights are set
up basically to legally confirm who has prioritary rights.  If one
feels there rights have been infringed upon, a civil lawsuit is filed
to exam the issues.

If you set up your website with your "ratings system", and copyright
(very cheap cost) the site.  You will set a timeline in which the
"process" of your rating system was established.  This "timeline"
would be important to determine who established the "rating system"
first, and Who is "copying whom" or "what is being copied" during a
legal proceeding.

So basically I would say Yes, by establishing the copyright you start
the process in order to protect your "rights".  I would continue the
process, and seek a patent and eventually a tradmark if the "business"
became truely successful.

Now something else you would have to consider.  Since your "ratings
system with the key parameters" is being viewed on the Internet, the
entire world has access to view and or cheat.  The copyright, patent,
and trademarks are US Government legal documentation, however who is
to say that a third world programmer re-creates your idea and hosts a
site in a third world country, or even in a Country outside of where
you live.  It still would be your responsiblity to police, and enforce
via lawsuit your "rights".  Would your Copyright, patent, trademark be
enforceable in that other country???  Would the Laws be in your
favor???  I know there is a universal arbitration board that governs
domain names,and intellectual property rights.

http://arbiter.wipo.int/center/

here is the site for more info..I haven't read through it completely so....

So..Yes..start off with the copyright to get the ball rolling...

I have tried to give you all the downside examples, but hopefully have
not "discouraged" you from persuing your Idea.  Unfortunately, there
are always the "black hats" that pirate software, make fake rollex's,
black market sales etc, but from a true business to busines standpoint
your rights should be protected. So go make the best damm music rating
 out there and send me a link so i can rate some music :)

you can email me if you wish by adding my name with a @ to my google
screen name and adding a dot com at the end.

Hope this helps, it was a good intellectual(free) conversation and
enjoyed discussing it with you.  My answers in all these threads we
also to inform others of the proceedures, so I spoke in broad terms,
then specifically to your concerns.

Eric..

O.K. Eric, I think I figured out your email so I shall write you a word.
My understanding is as such:
First step, file a provision before getting on the net, for a patent
cannot be filed on an idea that has been published earlier.(Not sure
if that?s true in case were earlier publisher is the same person
filing).
Second step, open my site, and at the same time copyright it.
If and hopefully, success is to follow, then I will proceed with a
full patent, and also a trademark.

As for now. If I got everything correct in my head throughout this
discussion, then perhaps I should withdraw the questions regarding
protection, and repost only question no.4 (leads & partnership).

And by the way as to third world competition, or whatever other
pirates, they are none of my concern. It?s the big players that worry
me.

"Hope this helps, it was a good intellectual (free) conversation and
enjoyed discussing it with you."

Absolutely!!! I have as well enjoyed this discussion with you, and
gained much from your knowledge.

Thanks with all intensions!!!

Happy Holiday Season.

Elias