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Subject:
Science - Physics
Category: Science Asked by: arisandino-ga List Price: $2.50 |
Posted:
09 Feb 2006 17:22 PST
Expires: 11 Mar 2006 17:22 PST Question ID: 443900 |
Can we literally see into the Earth's past? That is, can we see events that occurred seconds ago or even millions of years ago? My six year old son wants to know. |
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There is no answer at this time. |
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Subject:
Re: Science - Physics
From: pinkfreud-ga on 09 Feb 2006 18:08 PST |
Some of the comments here may be of interest: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=440383 |
Subject:
Re: Science - Physics
From: myoarin-ga on 10 Feb 2006 03:39 PST |
Before you confuse your young son with the discussion on the other question, the simple answer is "no". If we could, it would ruin the business of books on history, religion, evolution, etc. |
Subject:
Re: Science - Physics
From: tedrick79-ga on 10 Feb 2006 08:44 PST |
Myo has the right of it. There is no way to know. There are two leading theories. One that it is very old and one that it is very young. The old one makes the earth 4.5 billion or so. I have read as young as it could possibly be is 5900 years or so. Great minds have aligned on either side of these theories and systematically try to discredit the other guys theory while mostly neglecting to shore up thier own theory. One of the few difference is the intelligent men who support the old earth theory are sometimes offered high paying job at top end schools. While the intelligent men in support of the young earth theory are mocked, rejected, labeled religious and mostly discounted. I could site examples of strange occurances in geology like hammers found with petrified handles in cretaceous rock, inlaid carvings on petrified wood, An iron nail was found in a Cretaceous block from the Mesozoic era, the Glen rose tracks in stone where dinosaurs walked beside human feet, A paving tile was found in a '25 million-year-old' Miocene formation in Plauteau City, Colorado in 1936, jewelry recovered from inside coal, and Two skeletons were found in Cretaceous rock (supposedly dated at 100 million years) in Moab, Utah, about 15 feet below the surface. Both skeletons were definitely human and ancient. They had been undisturbed till they were found. When tested for age, they were only a few thousand years old. All impossible occurances in the 4.5 billion year plan. If you want airtight proof, I have none to give you =] |
Subject:
Re: Science - Physics
From: rracecarr-ga on 10 Feb 2006 12:16 PST |
I wonder which side of the round/flat controversy tedrick comes down on. You know, the shape of the earth. Great minds have aligned on either side of this one too. I believe the flat theory myself. I just don't get how all them pesky satellites orbit around a flat planet. |
Subject:
Re: Science - Physics
From: germe-ga on 10 Feb 2006 15:37 PST |
obvisouly they use magic |
Subject:
Re: Science - Physics
From: myoarin-ga on 10 Feb 2006 17:22 PST |
Na, there are a bunch of hooks up there. They discovered them with the Palomar telescope. With Rracecarr's flat earth, the satellites don't have to orbit. The trick is shoot them up so that they hang on the right one. So why do the sun and moon and stars rise and set? I'll figure out an answer for that when someone asks. ;-) |
Subject:
Re: Science - Physics
From: kottekoe-ga on 10 Feb 2006 20:53 PST |
There is no controversy among scientists. It is not hard to understand the measurement techniques and they are conclusive. The oldest rocks on the earth are about 4 billion years old. It's simple, measure the half life of the radioactive isotopes, measure the ratio of decay products in the rocks. Other evidence shows that the earth and solar system are a bit older than this, approximately 4.5 billion years. Recent observations of the anisotropy of the black body radiation have been able to date the age of the universe remarkably precisely to about 13.5 billion years. The measurement technique for this is MUCH more difficult to understand and perhaps open to some controversy, but very consistent with other knowledge such as the well established age of the earth. This is not to say that someone who believes that the earth is only a few thousand years old is crazy or stupid. I'm just saying there is no controversy among scientists. Oh sure, there are undoubtedly a few scientists who would contest this, but the percentage is small enough to discount. So, if you are someone who looks for rational, scientific explanations of the world and believe in science, no controversy. If you pefer to ignore science, fine, I respect your belief system, but you are missing out on an appreciation for what I consider to be the greatest achievement of mankind, the scientific understanding of what were once great mysteries. One man's opinion. |
Subject:
Re: Science - Physics
From: lebre-ga on 11 Feb 2006 19:35 PST |
Yes, it is possible for someone to see what was happening in earth like 500 years ago. Imagine a planet that is 500 light years away, there lives an advanced civilization that has the technology to build super telescopes with HUGE image definition or the ability to restore a image transmited from light years distance. So, because the light reflected from the surface of our planet travels at the speed of light, this civilization, is in fact, in this moment watching earth 500 years ago. For us it is impossible to see, because even a thing that happened 1 second ago you need to be 299 792 458 m away to see it in the future (imagine it like a 1 second future). Recent developments in physics may represent major advances in this field since there is the possibility that time has more than 1 dimension, and not just as we think of it. In a simple way maybe time can be morphed, but no certains here. Hope it helps you. |
Subject:
Re: Science - Physics
From: sai_b-ga on 17 Feb 2006 13:29 PST |
Comment by lebre-ga leads to an interesting possibility, assumung that 1. our telescope technology is very advanced 2a. aliens from very far away planet have huge mirrors pointed at us -or- 2b. some space object is capable of reflecting light than in it is possible to look at the earths reflection and look into earths past. How deep the past is depends on how far away the reflecting object lies. This idea may seem impractical but could be a possibility and is sure interesting. |
Subject:
Re: Science - Physics
From: lazerz-ga on 17 Feb 2006 18:12 PST |
It all depends by what you mean by "See into the past". If you are referring to actual events, the simple answer is no. We would have to be at a point where the light from the event arrives to our eyes. To see an event that happened a while ago we would have to be able to travel faster than light & place outselves in the path of the ligh from the event. We can't travel anywhere near the spead of light. However, if we shine a light at a reflector on the moon & see the reflection, we are actually seeing an event that happened a few seconds in the past. But I don't think this is what your six year old meant. |
Subject:
Re: Science - Physics
From: tedrick79-ga on 23 Feb 2006 11:45 PST |
The planet is round. It is not ancient. Try to have some professionalism. All present things agree with the theory of creation. Carbon dating was faulty when they designed it for those in support of the theory of evolution. Darwin himself (quoted below) did not fully understand why the species in between are nonexistant. You cannot theory up something without the pieces and that is just what evolution always has been. When will you get life to crawl out of a jar? When will you find the missing links between every single phyla every recorded? When will you suffeciently explain abiogenesis? When will you explain how a dinosaurs could have walked aside men? (Glen Rose Tracks) When will you explain man made objects recovered from inside coal? There are are a grand host of things that have not even been explained somewhat rationally. As such I am forced, having reason of my own, to side with the more simple theory that fits the current surroundings and requires far less faith on my part. Creation. As such I am not alone in my confusion over how evolution came into such popularity. "One of the determining forces of scientism was a fantastic accidental imagination which could explain every irregularity in the solar system without explanation, leap the gaps in the atomic series without evidence [a gap required by the Big Bang theory], postulate the discovery of fossils which have never been discovered, and prophesy the success of breeding experiments which have never succeeded. Of this kind of science it might truly be said that it was `knowledge falsely so called.' "?*David C.C. Watson, The Great Brain Robbery (1976). "The particular truth is simply that we have no reliable evidence as to the evolutionary sequence . . One can find qualified professional arguments for any group being the descendant of almost any other."?J. Bonner, "Book Review," American Scientist, 49:1961, p. 240. "As by this theory, innumerable transitional forms must have existed. Why do we not find them embedded in the crust of the earth? Why is not all nature in confusion [of halfway species] instead of being, as we see them, well-defined species?"?*Charles Darwin, quoted in H. Enoch, Evolution or Creation (1966), p. 139. "Scientists have no proof that life was not the result of an act of creation."?*Robert Jastrow, The Enchanted Loom: Mind in the Universe (1981), p. 19. "In fact, evolution became in a sense a scientific religion; almost all scientists have accepted it and many are prepared to `bend' their observations to fit in with it."?*H. Lipson, "A Physicist Looks at Evolution," Physics Bulletin, 31 (1980), p. 138. "Today our duty is to destroy the myth of evolution, considered as a simple, understood and explained phenomenon which keeps rapidly unfolding before us. Biologists must be encouraged to think about the weaknesses and extrapolations that the theoreticians put forward or lay down as established truths. The deceit is sometimes unconscious, but not always, since some people, owing to their sectarianism, purposely overlook reality and refuse to acknowledge the inadequacies and falsity of their beliefs."?*Pierre-Paul de Grasse, Evolution of Living Organisms (1977), p. 8. "The creation account in Genesis and the theory of evolution could not be reconciled. One must be right and the other wrong. The story of the fossils agreed with the account of Genesis. In the oldest rocks we did not find a series of fossils covering the gradual changes from the most primitive creatures to developed forms, but rather in the oldest rocks developed species suddenly appeared. Between every species there was a complete absence of intermediate fossils."?*D.B. Gower, "Scientist Rejects Evolution," Kentish Times, England, December 11, 1975, p. 4 [biochemist]. |
Subject:
Re: Science - Physics
From: rracecarr-ga on 23 Feb 2006 12:26 PST |
Oh, I get it now. Hundreds of years of scientific discoveries, verifiable experiments, and technological advances enabled by science are all mistakes, coincidences, and sheer luck. Scientists are all idiots. It makes much more sense to ignore all of that and just read a story someone once wrote down about an apple and a snake. |
Subject:
Re: Science - Physics
From: tedrick79-ga on 27 Feb 2006 05:19 PST |
Oh yeah. This is the part where I am supposed to try and convince you that I am right and you are wrong. I am not going for it. But I will say that if your afterlife ends up being a might warmer than you had previously imagined. Do not come crying to me. |
Subject:
Re: Science - Physics
From: rracecarr-ga on 27 Feb 2006 15:07 PST |
I will be happy to completely ignore you (that includes refraining from crying to you) if you will just take your religious crap over to the Religion category, and keep it out of the discussions of scientific questions. |
Subject:
Re: Science - Physics
From: soulreever-ga on 27 Feb 2006 16:04 PST |
This is an interesting question, the answer is simply yes to an extent. After the big bang occured all matter expanded from a central point. If you were to have a telescope strong enough you would because of how light travels be able to see in to the past. Let me clarify. Light travels at a constant speed, the time it takes the light from the edge of the universe to reach your telescope is so long, the light from the first seconds of the universe is what your seeing. For example, the light you are seeing from the sun currently is the light created eight seconds ago. Apply this principle to something further away and the light you see (which in turn becomes the image you view from the telescope) is extremely outdated. What you are seeing has long since changed. As for looking back on Earths History like past events no I do not believe that is possible. I hope that helps. Im a fresh man in highschool but I know my Science. |
Subject:
Re: Science - Physics
From: rracecarr-ga on 28 Feb 2006 17:58 PST |
Light from the sun takes about 8 minutes to get to the earth. |
Subject:
Re: Science - Physics
From: man2_relativity-ga on 28 Feb 2006 22:00 PST |
using einstein`s theory of relativity,some people are trying to make a machine called time machine(it can see things of the past only if the machine was on at that time).upto my knowledge of relativity, a time machine based on such principle cannot be possible u know theory of relativity is full of these types of answers all of them cannobe provided here ask ur son to become a relatvist i think he can be better than those of now thx |
Subject:
Re: Science - Physics
From: tedrick79-ga on 01 Mar 2006 10:08 PST |
"I will be happy to completely ignore you (that includes refraining from crying to you) if you will just take your religious crap over to the Religion category, and keep it out of the discussions of scientific questions." - rracecarr-ga For most sciences I would say that you are correct. Religion has no place in physics, aerospace design or propulsion tech. Its uses in the scientific community are limited to a select few fields. Archaeology for example uses it a good amount as most religious record are old and mostly accurate. Some have yet to be proved inaccurate. When people say that this is whatever million or that is whatever billion years old usually it is because someone else has told them it was so. Not knowing the science of how we date particular samples I was inclined to believe them. Then I began to study the science of how thing are dated. This is important to the OP question because if you cannot look into the past; the next best thing is to have a good timeline of what has occurred in history. The premire and leading way things are dated is radiocarbon dating. Carbon 14 (C-14) dating was considered to be a tremendous breakthrough in science when Willard Libby devised it in 1946. That is measuring the amount of C-14 in a particular object to determine its age. This can be problematic at best for if conditions change so does the rate of C-14 decay. The earths magnetic field has a large bearing on the rate of decay as well. There are many problems with carbon dating I will list a few for those of you who have large brains. 1 - No rock in the world is a closed system. 2 - Decay rates could have been different in the past. Under varying conditions, we have already found evidence of change in the present?and Joly found changes in the past 3 - Daughter products could easily have been present in the beginning. An original intermingling of such products would nullify present attempts to date by daughter products 4 - Unknown changes in our past environment could ruin the narrowly drawn assumptions. There is no way of knowing exactly what each local past environment was like 5 - High energy particles, nearby radioactive minerals or contact with certain chemicals could earlier have significantly altered decay rates 6 - Earlier changes in the atmosphere would have greatly affected decay rates. No one knows whether the earlier atmosphere was identically like our present one 7 - The decay clocks did not have to start at the beginning of their chains. Daughter products could have been present in the beginning 8 - Lead could originally have been mixed in with the uranium or thorium. It is only an assumption that all the lead could only be an end-product 9 - Common Lead 9 (PB-209) could have been mixed in. This would also seriously affect the dating 10 - Leaching could easily have occurred in past time. Passing solutions could have carried away portions of daughter products 11 - Comparisons of lead ratios could be inaccurately made. This could damage test results in five ways 12 - Any earlier change in the Van Allen belt would have decidedly affected decay rates. ?And we have only known of this high-atmospheric belt since 1959 13 - Free neutrons could be captured from neighboring lead 206. Most radiogenic lead on earth could have been produced by neutron capture 14 - If the earth had originally been molten, this would have resulted in wide variations of rock settings. Intense heat damages radiodating clock settings 15 - Uranium dates, thorium dates, and all the other dating methods always disagree with one another. This itself is strong evidence of the unreliability of the various methods 16 - Some of the daughter products (such as argon) are gases which easily migrate out of the rocks. As the problems abound with carbon dating there are still some those that cling to it as it produces exteremely dated object sometimes above (in the strata) younger objects. Some samples of coal, oil, and natural gas, all supposedly many millions of years old have radiocarbon ages of less than 50,000 years. Deep ocean deposits supposed to contain remains of most primitive life forms are dated within 40,000 years. To further compound the carbon dating problems muscle tissue from beneath the scalp of a mummified musk ox found in frozen muck at Fairbanks Creek, Alaska, has a radiocarbon age of 24,000, while the radiocarbon age of hair from a hind limb of the carcass is 17,200. A life span exceeding 7,000 years for a specimen of this species is doubtful. To tie it all up radiocarbon dating cannot be relied upon with any hint of accuracy. Freshly slain animals have dated back as far as 1300 years ago. There are also mentionable finds in archaeology that point to an incredibly young planet. Let me link one for you. http://home.texoma.net/~alphom1/hammr.htm http://www.bible.ca/tracks/taylor-all-14.jpg The first link if of a fossilized hammer in cretaceous rock. It has a petrified handle. These are odd occurances is not that the handle is petrified. Things can petrified or fossillize in less than a century under perfect conditions (google: petrified hat found in mine). The funny thing is that it is encased in rock. The cretaceous period started '150 million years and ended 75 million years ago' So we found a 75 million year old hammer. Unless the dinosaurs could forge hammers I doubt it. So people created it 75 million years ago. Not likely. If humans had been around that long, forging iron, they would have managed to start recorded history as well. Thats just one hammer. Next the tracks and how I tie these two 'errors in space time' together. If you look at the picture you will see two set of tracks. One looking a lot like human footprints (with appropriate running gait) and a set of 3 toes dinosaur footprints. It is still unknown who was chasing who. The important thing is that dinosaurs and mankind coexisted and this is proof of such existence. There is a sea of highly suppressed archaeological finds that a little research can uncover. These finds directly contradict the theory of the radiocarbon dating theorists that would have us evolving from primates. This is not about religion - it is more about archaeology. The history of our species. The things you can find. Pick up and measure reliably. If your measuring tool does not agree with itself or it does not agree with logic, then you cannot use it. I would urge anyone who cares to know to look for yourself and not to take the word of others. Including me. It is a vast planet and a lot of things can be learned from it. Indeed the truth can be gleaned from its very surface. |
Subject:
Re: Science - Physics
From: kottekoe-ga on 01 Mar 2006 20:07 PST |
Tedrick said: "...usually it is because someone else has told them it was so..." . He on the other hand has studied the science and come to some conclusions. He makes 16 claims, supposedly about carbon dating, most of which have nothing whatsoever to do with carbon dating. Guess what, his claims repeat verbatim the contents of this web site: http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/06dat6.htm To the credit of that web site, they at least reference their source and don't claim that these are statements about carbon dating. Now I only ask one question. How in the world could changes in the atmosphere, the passage of time, or the Van Allen radiation belt (for heaven's sake) change the decay rate of atomic nuclei? I respect your belief system, but please don't claim you understand science and attempt to use scientific arguments to support your faith. Faith is faith, you cannot prove it with science. |
Subject:
Re: Science - Physics
From: soulreever-ga on 04 Mar 2006 22:44 PST |
Subject: Re: Science - Physics From: rracecarr-ga on 28 Feb 2006 17:58 PST Light from the sun takes about 8 minutes to get to the earth. My mistake sorry, but my point is still valid. |
Subject:
Re: Science - Physics
From: crazykid-ga on 07 Mar 2006 04:21 PST |
Just explain that as distance is one of the improtant factor TIME is one more important factor.... explain with and example that the sunlight takes about 8min to reach earth and in similar way if we see at a planet at very distant space wont be seeing the present but the past what happened the before the time taken by the light to reach.... I hope this will help u Carzy |
Subject:
Re: Science - Physics
From: tedrick79-ga on 07 Mar 2006 12:54 PST |
Yes I used information on the web. Guilty. I will continue to. Thanks. To keep the trend going I though I would at least try to engage the question about atomic the decay rates of atomic nuclei and its realtion to the magnetism of our little planet. Let us start with what everyone already knows. Magnetic field decay The earth's magnetic field strength was measured by Carl Friedrich Gauss in 1835 and has been repeatedly measured since then, showing an exponential decay with a half-life of about 1400 years. This could also be stated as a relative decay of about 10% to 15% over the last 150 years. (wiki) Now the ancient earth people explain this by 'deducing' that the field must flip poles every however many million years. This cannot be proved but it saves them from the alternative. That the field has always been decaying. Since it was first put in place by whatever or whomever formed it. If this is the case, and I emphasize the IF, then the magnetic field in the past was much stronger than it is now. Simple. Right now it is between .3 and .6 gauss in strength. How much stronger? Well a 10% weakening every 150 years. Inverted is a 10% increase every 150 years into the past. Say a 100% increase every 1500 years in the past. Yes I am assuming it is linear - but for the past 150 years it has been. So increasing by .3 to .6 gauss every 1500 years does not sound too bad. It does however effect atoms a small amount. Why? Atom are held together magnetics. Logic dictates that they are effected but external magnetism. A halving of the magnetic field every 1500 years effects atomic decay. Including that of carbon isotopes. They knew this then and they drew in the poles shifting deduction to circumvent anyone coming across the discrepancy. That is the best I can do to answer your question. Now how do you explain the dinosaur with people fossilized footprints? As well as the rock encased hammer? |
Subject:
Re: Science - Physics
From: gianthobbit-ga on 08 Mar 2006 17:21 PST |
I question the validity of tedrick's sources, both are obviously biased, being a Christian school and a website called "www.bible.ca". |
Subject:
Re: Science - Physics
From: sukha620-ga on 16 Mar 2006 12:12 PST |
answer is "no".scientist need to develop a time machine so we can go back in time |
Subject:
Re: Science - Physics
From: saladtoes-ga on 20 Mar 2006 12:01 PST |
dear tedrick this may interest you, regarding this qoute: "As by this theory, innumerable transitional forms must have existed. Why do we not find them embedded in the crust of the earth? Why is not all nature in confusion [of halfway species] instead of being, as we see them, well-defined species?"?*Charles Darwin, quoted in H. Enoch, Evolution or Creation (1966), p. 139. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punctuated_equilibrium "Punctuated equilibrium (or punctuated equilibria) is a theory in evolutionary biology which states that most sexually reproducing species will show little to no evolutionary change throughout their history. When evolution occurs it happens sporadically (by splitting) and occurs relatively quickly compared to the species' full duration on earth. Punctuated equilibrium is commonly contrasted against the theory of phyletic gradualism, which hypothesizes that most evolution occurs uniformly and by the steady gradual transformation of whole lineages (anagenesis). Punctuated equilibrium is the currently favored theory for the fluctuating patterns of evolution observed in the fossil record." also please keep in mind that there are multiple dating methods used as checks against each other before any date can be considered accurate. It would require a very long string of coincidences for each of these to render similar results all over the earth as consistently as they do if the methods were as unreliable as you seem to think. That is why i trust them. The examples you gave of things that evolution cannot explain are in fact interesting exceptions to the rule, but even if you had 1000 such examples it should not change the mind of a rational person who beleives something due to hundreds of thousands, possibly even millions of examples. Instead an explanation that is consisten with the well supported theory should be sought out. (see punctuated equilibrium above) The final thing I think you should keep in mind is how rarely fossilization actually occurs and just because it occurs does not mean someone who will recognize it will find it. "Gaps" in the fossil record are to be expected. I hope this explained the opposing point of view to you, because it didnt seem like anyone else was able to. |
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