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Subject:
Sound of rocks skipping across a frozen lake
Category: Science > Physics Asked by: jesseh-ga List Price: $5.00 |
Posted:
04 Jan 2005 20:34 PST
Expires: 03 Feb 2005 20:34 PST Question ID: 452102 |
I recently skipped rocks across a small frozen lake, it made such an interesting sound, almost like a bird chirping. What is the physical mechanism behind this phenomenon? My theory is this; the sound is produced by the surface ice vibrating at its resonant frequency like a drumhead. Could someone please confirm or correct me? |
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There is no answer at this time. |
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Subject:
Re: Sound of rocks skipping across a frozen lake
From: anechoic-ga on 04 Jan 2005 21:47 PST |
Short answer: it's possible, but I doubt it. The mass of the ice should make the natural frequency of the ice sheet very low, so the 'resonant' sound would be more of a "thunk" then a chirp. Were there any structures nearby (specifically any metal or chain-link fences)? If may have heard an interaction between the sound of the rock hitting the ice, and the reflected sound bouncing/diffracting off a nearby object. |
Subject:
Re: Sound of rocks skipping across a frozen lake
From: jesseh-ga on 04 Jan 2005 23:32 PST |
There was no man-made object anywhere near the lake. I am 99% certain the sound was from the ice. the other strange thing is that the chirps would persist until the rock came to a complete stop. even a rock spinning but otherwise not moving on the surface of the ice would make a chirping sound. it was quite something. the size of the lake was not large, perhaps 200 yards in diameter. For those in the Seattle area, this happened at round lake and the other larger lake near it (forget the name) on Tiger Mountain in Issaquah. Go up there and try it yourself, it's amazing! |
Subject:
Re: Sound of rocks skipping across a frozen lake
From: rai130-ga on 05 Jan 2005 02:15 PST |
I experienced exactly the same thing on a very small loch (about 30 metres diameter)in Scotland on Christmas Day. Sounded a bit like a metal sheet being wobbled but more high pitched. There certainly weren't any man-made structures around. Even once the stupid dog had jumped through the ice after a rock, we could throw another rock and it would still resonate. |
Subject:
Re: Sound of rocks skipping across a frozen lake
From: rabaga-ga on 05 Jan 2005 03:29 PST |
I've got to agree it is a wonderful noise. I did it once, also on a Scottish loch. I was 'skipping' chestnuts found on the ground beside the loch and what added tremendously to the fun was the ducks trying to reach the nuts, they were literally doing back-flipson the ice. It was hysterical. Try it! |
Subject:
Re: Sound of rocks skipping across a frozen lake
From: timespacette-ga on 05 Jan 2005 08:26 PST |
we've occassionally heard this on our lakes (Orcas Island, WA), but only when the ice is quite thick (at least 5-6 inches). It couldn't possibly be sound reflecting off other objects! It's really a phenomena; one of the rare pleasures of winter . . . ts |
Subject:
Re: Sound of rocks skipping across a frozen lake
From: guzzi-ga on 05 Jan 2005 19:27 PST |
Lovely comments from others. It?s just a rather pleasant resonance -- bit like railway lines singing when you are about to be mashed by 500 tons of train. But for a really cool sound on ice, try outdoor curling. Not only do you get the sibilant singing but also deep rumbling and the occasional sickening 3D crack darting across the loch. Oh happy times. Best |
Subject:
Re: Sound of rocks skipping across a frozen lake
From: pinkfreud-ga on 05 Jan 2005 19:37 PST |
My late father-in-law, who was Canadian, once told me that he loved the chirping sound caused by a hockey stick striking the ice of a frozen lake. He said it reminded him of whales' songs. The hockey stick sound is mentioned here: http://lists.nau.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9609&L=phys-l&F=&S=&P=616 |
Subject:
Re: Sound of rocks skipping across a frozen lake
From: anechoic-ga on 08 Jan 2005 14:40 PST |
"There was no man-made object anywhere near the lake. I am 99% certain the sound was from the ice. " It's definitely not simple resonant behavior, not in the sense that you described it ('drumhead'). It could be dispersive behavior alluded to in the comment above. Dispersion refers to the fact that different types of sound waves can exist in solids, each wave moves in different directions at different speeds. When several of these waves are created at the same time, the interact with each other, and can create chirping effects. (this is a simplified explanation) If the ice was coupled with another object, say corrugated pipe (drainage or culvert), the ice may have excited it, causing the chirp. |
Subject:
Re: Sound of rocks skipping across a frozen lake
From: soundman-ga on 05 Feb 2005 16:34 PST |
I am a telecommunications technician (Ex-British army), and also a live sound-reinforcement engineer (soundman & recording engineer for bands etc.)Yesterday, My wife and I were walking across St.Albans Bay (Lake Champlain, VT.,)when we experienced the same phenomenon, although the conditions and sounds were slightly different, (there was no stone-throwing, curling stones or hockey sticks.) the sounds we were hearing were very deep, almost sub-sonic "whale-song" sounds. Obviously, as someone who is very interested in the propogation of sound through different media, this fascinated me. After a little confusion, (we couldn't immediately see a reason for the noises, and being out on the Ice, at least 100ft from the shore, we were very certain that the noises were coming from the ice itself, although there seemed to be no discernable movement of the ice,) we finally saw the cause of these strange sounds - the vehicles travelling on the ice! the bigger the vehicle, the louder the sound, (regardless of the vehicle's distance from us!) some of these vehicles were over a mile from us. We spent 2 beautiful sun-filled hours walking all around the bay, all the while making the observation that the volume of the sounds were very consistant, as were the frequencies, (approximately 15 - 35 hertz, with some mid-high frequency harmonics, {BIG birds chirping!?}) during this time, we asked some ice-fishermen roughly how thick the ice was, the standard reply being 12-18 inches. I am assuming from what I learnt on the ice, and from reading the other questions on this site, that the characteristics of this phenomenon are as follows: 1) The Baseline (I don't mean Bass-line, although the Baseline freqs. were in the Bass range!) frequencies were a product of the size of the body of water and the thickness of the ice. (The "Drum-Shell" & "Drum-Head" effect.{I must assume that the sounds DO travel through the UN-frozen water too!}) 2) the frequencies AND strengths of the various harmonics of the Baseline frequency seem to me to be dependent on many factors, for instance the shape, complexity and slope gradient of the shore-line. (A combination of the "Dispersion" effect, and basic Acoustics {think room shape & size x surface textures & densities = reverberation/echo quality of said room.}) 3) the volume of the Baseline frequency in relation to the volume of the harmonics seems to be a function of the "amount" of flex of the ice at differing locations, that is to say, how big the vehicle is, (the drum-stick!), and where it is positioned on the lake, (where the drum-stick hits the drum-head.) In other words, ( as Musicians would say, "The Dynamics of the drum-kit AND the Drummer.") 4)ALL of the above is dependant on ambient temperature, barometric pressure, humidity and vantage-point. and that's about all I've got!!! (I am also assuming that the lake has near infinite "Baffle" properties( pretty close to a sealed "Drum" ) which would result in a slight accentuation of the HIGH frequencies, (unlike I.B. speaker enclosures, the media we are talking about are water and ice, the densities of which propogate differently to "thin-air.") |
Subject:
Re: Sound of rocks skipping across a frozen lake
From: soundman-ga on 05 Feb 2005 17:07 PST |
P.s. I don't think that it could be JUST dispersion effect - Holistics prevents this, assuming that the ice is touching other media, for this reason it can't be simple resonance either!!( the water would surely dampen the natural high frequencies.) I think that NEITHER theory, on it's own, could explain this phenomenon exclusively. I think that the "shear-tension" of the ice probably plays a small part too, ( bend a thin piece of wood - it creaks, bend a thick peice of wood, it groans.) |
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