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Q: Social Security: Could privatization hurt the finances of social security? ( Answered 2 out of 5 stars,   8 Comments )
Question  
Subject: Social Security: Could privatization hurt the finances of social security?
Category: Business and Money > Economics
Asked by: moosetail-ga
List Price: $50.00
Posted: 09 Jan 2005 20:00 PST
Expires: 08 Feb 2005 20:00 PST
Question ID: 454779
Under current Social Security Rules and using accepted demographic
statistics, are there income categories of persons whose
"contributions plus earnings on those contributions to the social
security system" will be more than their expected benefits?
(Contributions would include the individual and the employer's social
security contributions.)

This question is designed to clarify whether a voluntary system of
opting out of social security completely would result in some income
groups taking out of the social security revenue stream (their
payments (personal payments plus the employers matching payments and
social security earnings on these payments) more than they would have
received in benefits. If this is true, a privatization scheme which
permits people to invest all their obligations in the stock market
could result in worsening the predicted "financial crisis" of social
security. "Privatization" for such a group of "net contributors"would
make the financial situation of social security worse, not better.

Using 2003 as a basis, the first $606 of average indexed monthly
earnings (AIME) provide 90% benefits ($545.40); the next $3,047
provide 32% benefits ($975.04) and the final $3,653 provide 15%
benefits. Thus, AIME of $7,306 provide $2,068.39 per month, or 28.3%
of Average Indexed Monthly Earnings.

Hopefully, someone has calculated and published an analysis of what
this means in the real world, i.e. one would need to factor in the
average length of time the social security recipient/dependent(s)
receive benefits, the average amount paid in,etc. (I am not clear
whether persons with the same AIME may have paid in different amounts
during their working lifetime and/or whether the timing of the
payments might result in different total interest earnings from the
treasury bills which social security buys from the Treasury.)

The answer should include a findable reference for the material sent
if a study is being quoted and/or for the data used in the analysis of
the person sending an answer. Hopefully the answer would provide a
cut-off point, i.e. persons with an AIME of ____ or more would hurt
the social security finances if they put all their social security
funds into the stock market, i.e. were permitted to opt out completely
from the present social security system.
Answer  
Subject: Re: Social Security: Could privatization hurt the finances of social security?
Answered By: wonko-ga on 18 Jan 2005 12:11 PST
Rated:2 out of 5 stars
 
Two excellent articles regarding the privatization of Social Security
appear in this week's BusinessWeek (January 24, 2005, available at
www.BusinessWeek.com).  The first article, "Social Security: are
private accounts a good idea?" (pages 64-70) does a good job of
explaining how Social Security actually works and the implications of
any degree of privatization.

Your question assumes that there are "Social Security earnings on
these payments."  In reality, there is no such possibility.  "The
official fiction is that workers' payroll deductions plus employers'
contributions go into a trust fund that builds up savings for
retirement.  In reality, the trust fund is filled with government
IOUs, while workers' and employers' taxes go right out the door to pay
the Social Security checks of today's retirees.  Currently, with most
boomers still in the workforce, there is a surplus in the SSA accounts
(although Congress spends every penny of it each year on other federal
programs)," (page 68).

Therefore, the issue is less one of whether or not an individual's
contributions to the program exceed or are less than lifetime benefits
received, but whether or not benefits owed in a single year by Social
Security as a whole exceed or are less than that year's payroll tax
collections.  Based on fairly pessimistic assumptions, it is believed
that at some point between 2042 and 2052, the gap between payroll tax
collections and benefits owed will be sizable, with only two-thirds of
benefits promised being available.

Any degree of privatization greatly accelerates the opening of the gap
between current payroll tax collections and benefits payable.  None of
the proposed privatization plans attempt to do anything to close the
gap.  Instead, they solve the problem by reducing benefits.  By
adjusting how the benefits increase for inflation, quite draconian
benefit cuts result.  "Higher returns from private accounts would not
offset these lower benefits for well over 75 years, even in the
best-case scenario," (page 69).  Even after 75 years of private
account investing of 4% of payroll, the average worker winds up with
20% less of a benefit than the current system promises.

Furthermore, the Social Security system becomes even weaker.  Because
even a partial privatization results in a shortfall affecting current
retirees' benefit checks, the government would have to borrow $1
trillion to $2 trillion to keep the system afloat for several decades
until the benefit reductions associated with private accounts came
into full effect.

Therefore, the answer to your question is that because Social Security
is run on a pay-as-you-go basis without any upfront funding, allowing
anyone to pull out any money for a private account, let alone opting
out completely, would hurt Social Security finances.  In fact, under a
plan of just contributing 4% of payroll, the private accounts would
yield almost 58% of the total benefit received 75 years from now. 
However, even though it is estimated that $8 trillion would accumulate
in private accounts after 75 years, there would still be $300 billion
less to pay Social Security benefits, so retirees would receive less
than they are currently promised, and less than half of that payment
would be from the traditional Social Security system even though it
received two-thirds of the payroll tax.

Another important point is that "...affluent people are more likely to
live longer than Social Security intended.  So they are getting more
out of the system than they pay into it," (page 70).  However, these
are the same people that are providing a majority of the current
collections, so the system will still be hurt if they are allowed to
opt out.

Some doubt exists that the shortfall will really occur.  The
assumptions resulting in the prediction of a $3.7 trillion shortfall
over the next 75 years are based on significantly slower growth in
Gross Domestic Product and the labor force.  However, the dramatic
increase in immigration and rapid growth occurring since the mid 1990s
have reduced both the predicted shortfall and postponed the date when
it occurs.  Even partial privatization will guarantee that a shortfall
occurs, and that it does so immediately.  The government would have to
borrow at least 160 billion per year to cover the shortfall during the
first years of the new system.

The question is whether or not benefits will be reduced or taxes will
be raised to compensate for the wider, now guaranteed gap.  It is
clear that it will take over 75 years for allowing people to invest
their payroll taxes in stocks to payoff sufficiently to even match
currently promised benefits, so either benefits would be reduced for
the next two to three generations, they will have to be taxed more, or
the government will have to stop spending the Social Security surplus
(which at this point may still be inadequate given that it is expected
to cease by 2018).

Finally, as is discussed in the second article "Windfall on Wall
Street?," (pages 76-77) private accounts will create the opportunity
for Wall Street to collect management fees.  Insurance companies would
also like to compel retirees to take their benefits as annuities,
resulting in further fees.  The current Social Security system, while
it offers workers minimal returns on their investment, is not burdened
by investment management fees.  Such fees will further reduce the
benefits retirees can receive, particularly if more expensive actively
managed funds are permitted.

What is clear from the analysis in BusinessWeek is that privatization
alone will not solve the problem, if it really exists, any time soon. 
Some economists recommend waiting for at least another decade to "fix"
Social Security to see if the assumptions that are resulting in the
forecasted crisis are overly conservative.  Any amount of
privatization essentially guarantees a short-term crisis requiring
sizable government borrowing, and privatization alone will not avert a
crisis for at least 75 years unless it is combined with benefit cuts
and/or tax increases.

Sincerely,

Wonko

Request for Answer Clarification by moosetail-ga on 18 Jan 2005 16:56 PST
You have identified an excellent article in Business Week and have
brought up some important points.  Unfortunately, I'm searching for a
study which answers the question "Are there income categories of
persons whose 'contributions plus earnings on those contributions to
the social security system' will be more than their expected
benefits?" I of course hoped to find out what income category(ies)
actually contribute to the solvency of social security as it now
operates. If people in these categories choose the privatization
route, social security would be worse off with privatizartion rather
than better off.

I had planned to use the source of the answer as something I could
quote in a piece I hope to write on social security.

Am I missing something in your comment and/Business Week article. Is
there information which provides "...a cut-off point, i.e. persons
with an AIME of ___ or more would hurt the social security finances if
they put all their social security funds into the stock maret, i.e.
were permitted to opt out completely from the present social security
system." Do I have an answer to my question and don't recognize it.
Can I state flatly that there are income categories which make a net
contribution (also counting interest paid by the Treasury on deposits)
to the Social Security Fund, or do all income categores take out more
from Social Security than they contribute? Unless I can answer this
question, I will have to continue my search.

I'm looking forward to your clarification.

Clarification of Answer by wonko-ga on 18 Jan 2005 17:52 PST
I am not sure that your initial question is really relevant because of
the way the system is funded.  Its solvency at any point in time has
nothing to do with whether people are taking more or less than what
they put in to the system out over their lifetimes because the trust
funds and earnings on the trust funds are accounting fictions. 
Congress spends the actual cash.  Because the ability for the system
to pay benefits each year is determined by that year's collections,
and that year's collections have nothing to do with what the
beneficiaries paid in because there is no trust fund in reality,
anyone who is allowed to opt out hurts the system while they are
contributing and helps the system when they are collecting if they are
collecting less benefits than they would have otherwise received had
they not been allowed to opt out.

Because so many different categories can take out more from Social
Security than they contribute regardless of income level, such as
widows, multiple spouses if a person has divorced multiple times with
each marriage exceeding 10 years, disabled people, and dependent
children, I suspect it is unlikely that a particular income level can
be pinpointed as supplying a net contribution.  In general, because of
lower life expectancies, smokers and lower income people would be more
likely to supply a net contribution.  However, the system's payouts
are also progressive in nature so that lower income people receive a
larger amount relative to their contribution than do higher income
people.

One problem associated with voluntary participation in private
accounts is that higher income workers are more likely to participate.
 This is described in "Lesson from Abroad: Make Them Mandatory" by
Peter Coy, BusinessWeek (January 24, 2005) page 77.  In particular,
because private accounts weaken the traditional system, low income
workers find themselves "... relying on a system that is in financial
straits and politically vulnerable as the rich bailout."  British
workers also find themselves confused about whether or not they should
establish personal accounts.  The author makes the argument that
private accounts, if enacted, should be mandatory so that everyone is
in the same boat.  If certain income groups are more likely to abandon
the system, and it ultimately collapses such that only those with
private accounts receive anything close to the promised benefits, then
your concerns about the impact of certain income groups on the
solvency of Social Security is applicable.

In summation, because there is no trust fund storing the Social
Security surplus, the system's solvency has no relationship to whether
a person can take out more than they contribute or less than they
contribute.  What matters is the income of the workers each year and
their payroll tax contributions relative to the benefits due that
year.  It is precisely because the government has not maintained a
trust fund with the Social Security surplus that the problem exists.

I have just received my weekly Time magazine, and it purports on its
cover to provide additional information on Social Security.  I will
post anything I discover that enhances our discussion.  You should be
able to read it online this week without a subscription at
www.Time.com.

Sincerely,

Wonko
moosetail-ga rated this answer:2 out of 5 stars
The researcher provided two good sources on social security and made
some interesting comments, but these comments did not provide a
useable answer to my basic question as to whether there are categories
of persons under social security who supply more in funds than they
receive in benefits.

Comments  
Subject: Re: Social Security: Could privatization hurt the finances of social security?
From: frde-ga on 10 Jan 2005 03:56 PST
 
Typically the most likely people whose state pension contributions
will exceed their expected drawdown are people with short life
expectancy.

It is also highly unlikely that any State adminstered 'insurance
scheme' would allow nett contributers to 'cherry pick' themselves out
of the system.

We in the UK allowed 'higher earners' to opt to have the 'higher part'
of their pension contributions invested in the private sector.

This led to a feeding frenzy for pension salesmen, artificially
inflated the stock market, and after the collapse of a few pension
providers and the stock market, has left the system in a right royal
mess.

The general principle is that : it is not wise to pay someone else to
look after your money.
Subject: Re: Social Security: Could privatization hurt the finances of social security?
From: jack_of_few_trades-ga on 10 Jan 2005 06:09 PST
 
I'd like to see the government set up the alternate savings devices
(similar to the Thrift Savings Plan (TSP) offered to govt employees).

The TSP has 5 investment fund opportunities:
Govt bonds
Corporate bonds
International fund (matches the EAFE)
S&P fund
Wilshire fund

These index funds are great because they reflect a large segment of
the market (good diversity) and they have very low maintenence costs
because the management needed to track an index is much less than the
management needed to pick a whole portfolio of stocks.

I'm sure with a little work the government could offer 8 to 10 index
bond/stock funds to choose from for the Social Security (SS)
replacement.

However the dangers are present as Frde stated.  The US needs to start
very small if they want to change the system.  If I were in charge
(ha, like I have any say), I'd start by saying everyone under 30 can
invest 10% of their SS money into these index funds if they choose and
in turn they will lose the coresponding amount in their SS retirement.
 At the same time they should bump up the SS benefit age by 1 month
every 2 years (to help cover the costs of losing that income into the
system).

Then over time they can raise the age at which people can invest their
own money... After everyone can invest 10% into the funds, if all is
going well then raise it to 20% and so on until 50 years or so down
the line SS is an option, but most people will be investing that money
themselves rather than trusting the govt to provide for them.
Subject: Re: Social Security: Could privatization hurt the finances of social security?
From: mczagros-ga on 10 Jan 2005 23:10 PST
 
Social Security is not strictly a retirement account, so the money
that an individual pays in is not necessarily related to the money he
or she gets out. If it were strictly a retirement account, there would
be no "crisis." Instead, SS is based on each generation directly
supporting their parents through a transfer tax. (Granted that this is
slightly modified due to the "trust fund.")

As a result, the current administration plans being bruited about to
institute "personal accounts" (the PC way to refer to privatization)
will neither help nor hurt the fiscal health of Social Security, they
are merely a distraction.
Subject: Re: Social Security: Could privatization hurt the finances of social security?
From: jack_of_few_trades-ga on 11 Jan 2005 06:32 PST
 
I disagree Mczagros.  If everyone has a personal account of 10%, then
that is 10% less SS "tax" that the government will take in.

"Independent analysts have estimated that diverting payroll taxes into
private accounts, as envisioned by a reform commission he appointed in
2001, would reduce government revenues by as much as $1 trillion to $2
trillion over the next 10 years."
http://www.detnews.com/2004/politics/0411/08/a01-327629.htm

I am a fan of allowing the accounts, but in the early years of the
accounts the social security expenditures will not decrease (because
people with these accounts won't be retired yet).  So the government
will be taking in less money and spending the same.  This would
increase our already huge government debt.

In the long run this would lower government expenditures if done
properly, however the short run needs to be considered.
Subject: Re: Social Security: Could privatization hurt the finances of social security?
From: mczagros-ga on 11 Jan 2005 20:20 PST
 
Yes, Jack is correct, reducing the amount of pay in will hurt Social
Security. My point is that personal accounts by themselves are not a
solution, something else will have to be changed.
Subject: Re: Social Security: Could privatization hurt the finances of social security?
From: neilzero-ga on 13 Jan 2005 05:37 PST
 
Government rarely does anything well, but reversing past blunders
causes serious pain to some people. We should make no more changes in
social security/FICA except remove the COLA = cost of living
allowance. Inflation will then make social security etc less important
over the decades. When a typical monthly social securiy check buys
only one hamberger at MacDonalds, few people will care if the program
gets abolished = minor pain distubuted over a long time.  Neil
Subject: Re: Social Security: Could privatization hurt the finances of social security?
From: frde-ga on 13 Jan 2005 07:22 PST
 
@Neilzero

In some ways I agree with you - let inflation make the problem 'go away'

However the underlying 'ethos' was something like :-
   'I pay for people now - and in return I get looked after later'

It could get a bit nasty if one finds a load of seriously p*ssed off
65 year olds demonstrating that they are still alive and capable of
kicking.
Subject: Re: Social Security: Could privatization hurt the finances of social security?
From: mczagros-ga on 15 Jan 2005 13:58 PST
 
"Government rarely does anything well" is a nice sound bite, but not
very accurate. As a matter of fact, every explicit comparison I have
seen (ranging from the design of web pages to the efficiency of
programming) the government does as well or better than business.
Social Security is a case in point, nobody denies that the government
overhead on SS administration is lower than any estimates for 401(k)
or other retirement funds.

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