I'm interested in learning more about the Jewish response to Jesus in
ancient times.  What was the Jews response to the coversion of Paul? 
To the conversion of Constantine?  Did the Jews make any effort after
the death of Jesus to counteract the teachings of Jesus' decipiles? 
When did the Jews first realize that Christianity wasn't goinng to die
out and might be the wave of the future?  When did the Jews realize
they were likey to be targets of Christian antisemitism? What are the
best books on this subject?

---

Clarification of Question by halejrb-ga on 13 Jan 2005 15:46 PST

I appreciate both comments.  Pugwashjw basically points out the
traditional Biblical justification of why Jesus was the Massiah. 
However, the Jews have equally good scriptural arguments to explain
why they don't belive Jesus was the Massiah. Was this issue debated in
ancient times the same way it is in the present day?  Or perhaps
strong religious convictions by both groups made debate pointless.  I
realize my quesion is way too complex to be answered for $10.  At this
point I'll pay $10 just for the names of the leading books on the
subject.

The Jews were in possession of the Old Testament, starting with
Genesis written by Moses in 1513 b.c.e Genesis 3;15 is a prophecy of
the conflict between the serpent [ Satan] and the woman [ God's
organization] Satan's seed or followers would conflict with the
woman's seed [ Jesus]. Satan would bruise Jesus in the heel, a
temporary wound, [ Jesus' death as a man and later resurrection to
heaven] but Jesus would bruise Satan in the head, [ A permanent death
dealing blow][ still future] . Jesus' arrival was foretold and the
Pharisees and Sadducees were in expectation of him. They expected
someone who would free them from the Romans. They did not expect a man
from a simple background who had been known to his own community for
thirty years, complied with all the Jewish laws and festivals, and
ONLY after he was baptised by his cousin, John the Baptist, was fully
aware of his messianic role. Once baptised, Jesus was aware of his
pre-human existence as God's helper in creation [ Proverbs 8;22,30]
Because of his refusal to become involved in any political solution,
and his miraculous works, the Jewish religious leaders wanted him out
of the way, as he was also a threat to their comfortable existence. It
was they who instigated his arrest and they who chose between Jesus
and the criminal Barabbas. Barabbas went free.
The Apostle Paul [ once a persecutor of Christians but chosen by Jesus
to preach the kingdom]Acts 9;4,5. 22;7,8. 26;11,14,15 drastically
changed his ways and became a pillar of the Christian community. The
Christians were initially frightened of Paul, because of his previous
zealous persecution of them.
The Bible writing was completed by John writing Revelation prior to
Emperor Constantine becoming a convert, and this fact is only
confirmed in secular writings.
Any so called Christians guilty of anti-semitism are not complying
with "love your neighbour" [John13;34]
And even to this day, the Jewish faith still do not believe that Jesus
put an end to their way of worship. They stick to the rules initially
set up by God with Abraham to guide them to Jesus. God changed and
simplified the rules but they valued their traditions too much and
still do. Matthew 15;6-9..and so you have made the word of God invalid
because of your tradition...it is in vain that they keep worshiping
me, because they teach the commands of men as doctrines...

Pugwashjw~

This is a fascinating series of questions. However, it will take
several hours to provide sources for each of these questions.

You are welcome to set your price as you see fit; however, if you find
your question remains unanswered, you may find more success by
increasing the price you are offering. You may find this helpful when
choosing your price:
http://answers.google.com/answers/pricing.html

Another option is to break down your questions (as stated here) into
just one or two questions per post.

Good luck,
Kriswrite

Hi Kriswrite, Thanks, but I did not ask the question, only commented. Pug.

Comment on the clarification. Hi again Halejrb. Yes!, the Jews of
Jesus' day did argue very strongly as to whether or not Jesus was the
Messiah of the prophecies. Even when they saw him perform miracles,
they still doubted. And lets not forget that Satan was around then and
is still around and capable of making strange things happen [
Revelation 12;12]
IF any follower of the Jewish faith HAS any scriptures ...from the
Bible I hope... to prove that Jesus was NOT the promised Messiah, then
here is the perfect forum...
ALL the information we need to know about Jesus being the Messiah is
from only ONE book, the Bible, and any other books available are
really just commentaries on the main book, again, the Bible. The Old
Testament, the history of the Jews, MUST be considered WITH, and not
SEPARATE from the New Testament, simply on the basis that Jesus often
referred back to the existing writings to make his points. At Matthew
24;37, Jesus related the Old Testament story of Noah and the flood.
verse 39 states.."and they took no note until the flood came and swept
them all away". If, as some say, that the Old Testament has no
relevance, WHY did Jesus refer to it. The Bible has lots more.

I?m not disputing the Biblical record, pugwashjw.  All I?m saying is
that Jews can also quote scripture from the Bible to support their
point of view.  See http://www.aish.com/spirituality/philosophy/Why_Dont_Jews_Believe_In_Jesus$.asp
Since it looks like no one is going to give me a list of the leading
books on this subject, I?ve been giving some thought to my original
question.  Basically, I don?t think Jewish historians chose to write
much about Jesus.  (An exception might be Flavius Josephus, but his
one passage concerning Jesus is in dispute.)   For Jews, Jesus is like
the 800 pound gorilla sitting in the corner that nobody wants to
notice.  Jewish history would have you believe the only significant
events in 1st century Judea were the Roman War, the destruction of the
Temple, and the Jewish expulsion from the Holy Land.  (This is a half
truth to begin with.  The Jews had small colonies throughout the
Mediterranean world long before the Roman War, and even after Rome
crushed the rebellion of 70 AD, a sizable number of Jews continued to
live in Judea.). But every society writes history from their own point
of view and the Jews are entitled to their version of events.  
However, if ancient Jewish historians had written about Jesus, even to
dispute his claims, then they would be admitting that Jesus was worth
writing about.  Also, unlike the Christians, the Jews wee not a
missionary type religion.  They weren?t interested in converting non
Jews, so they had no reason to argue their point of view in the
historical record.  They pretty much abandoned the playing field to
Christian writers who were writing with the deliberate purpose of
converting Pagans and other non Christians.  But it seems to me their
must be something in Jewish history reflecting concern or amazement or
whatever, when the teachings of this renegade Jew named Jesus became a
world religion.

Hi again, Halejrb. I think you might agree with me that God chose a
nomadic group of people with no established cities to become His "
chosen race". He started with Abraham and Sarah, descended from Noah.
Genesis 12;1 states where God promised Abraham would be the progenitor
of a great nation..the Jews..and today the Jews still think they are
the chosen ones. But God himself put a stop to that when the preaching
of the Kingdom was directed to, not only the Jews, but to the
Gentiles. The account of the conversion of the first Gentile,
Cornelius. He was an army officer in charge of 100 men. The Bible
describes him as..a man righteous and fearing God and well reported by
the whole nation of Jews...Cornelius was visited by an angel in 36
C.E., who told him [ Cornelius] " your prayers and gifts of mercy have
ascended as a remembrance before God". And further, the angel told
Cornelius to send to Joppa for the Apostle Peter.
Prior to 36 C.E., the Christians only preached to the Jews, to gain
converts. Following 36 C.E., with Cornelius as an example, they
preached to all.
You are correct in saying the Jews were not a missionary type of
group. They had 1500 years of tradition and keeping separate from the
world behind them. Jesus came through their line. But they were only
the first step in God's plan to prove to everyone, including angels
watching on,that righteous men, given free will/choice, will choose to
worship God by their own choice, without force.
 
First Corinthians 1;27 clearly describes the types of people that God
chooses for His purposes. Flavius Josephus was a Roman, not a Jewish
writer. His mention of Jesus proves that Jesus did exist, and is
backed up by Jesus being tried by King Herod, a Jew, and Pontius
Pilate, the Roman Governor at the time. Even they said they could find
no fault with Jesus but to quiet the Jewish mob led by the Jewish
religious leaders of the day, complied with them and had Jesus killed.

Hi there Halejrb,

I think your last comment is on the right track: without a need to
convert non-Jews, and because Jesus just isn't that important to the
Jewish faith (other rabbis like Hillel and Shammai and Maimonedies are
far more central), there isn't that much ancient Jewish writing about
Jesus. Remember that Jesus wasn't that unusual in his time - there
were would-be messiahs and prophets and religious revolutionaries
popping up from time to time, and many of them were brutally killed by
the occupying Romans. You might want to look into Jesus's
near-contemporary and another would-be messiah, Bar Kochba, who
actually started a military revolt against Rome.

The only early Jewish response to Jesus was called the Sefer Toledot
Yeshu ('Book of the Generation of Jesus"), a quite short work but one
that's extraordinarily hard to find these days (I can't find any
twentieth-century editions). Thankfully, there is a new book about it
published in 2003, which I haven't yet read but could be interesting.
"The Jesus the Jews never knew : Sepher Toldoth Yeshu and the quest of
the historical Jesus in Jewish sources" by Frank R. Zindler was
published in Cranford NJ by the American Atheist Press -- not,
perhaps, a sign that this will be the most objective book out there,
but when it's all that's been done in a century, you take what you can
get.

You migth also check out the 16th-century response by Rb. Issac ben
Abraham Troki called "Hizuk Emunah" or "Faith Strenghtened" -- angry,
apologetic, hard to read, and a little late, but extremely influential
in its time.
 
As for good books on the subject, I can't claim to be an expert in the
field, but let me reccomend the following works, most of which you
should be able to find in a good university library:

"Jesus? Jewishness : exploring the place of Jesus within early
Judaism" / edited, James H. Charlesworth (New York: Crossroad, 1991).
"Jewish expressions on Jesus : an anthology" / edited with an introd.
by Trude Weiss-Rosmarin (New York: Ktav Publishing House, 1977)
"Jesus the Pharisee" / Hyam Maccoby (London: SCM Press, 2003)
"Jesus in his Jewish context" / Geza Vermes (Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 2003)
And the always helpful Martin Buber, "Two Types of Faith" (Syracuse
University Press, 2003, and some earlier editions: London: Routledge
1951 and so on).

That's a great answer rogerwilco!  If you were an official "Google
Answer Man" I'd give you the $10.  However since you aren't, I'm
declaring the question closed.  Since nobody was willing to help me
for $10 I did my own internet search and learned quite a lot.  Most of
what I found confirms my conclusion that the ancient Jews had no
reason to write about Jesus.  I found Frank R. Zindler's website where
he basically summarizes his book, so there's no need to buy it. 
(Isn't the web great in that respect!)  He makes a strong argument
that Jesus never existed.  However, I think the better argument is
that Jesus was a genuine historical figure, and that also seems to be
the view of most reputable historians. Since there's so little non
Biblical sources for Jesus, I also researched Paul of Tarsus.  It
looks like Paul actually knew at least two of the apostles.  In
reviewing Paul's writings I'd be interested in knowing if anyone ever
wrote back.  For example, are there any surviving letters from the
Galatians or the Corinthians back to Paul?  If I have time, I might
keep surfing the web on this subject.  It's quite fascinating.

Hi there Hal,
Glad my comment was helpful. In lieu of the $10 that, no, I can't
receive (as I'm not a g-man), could you  give me a link to that
website by Zinder? The idea that Jesus never actually lived at all
does seem, well, rather far-fetched. (Josephus mentions him, for one.)
But yeah, I think I'd have a lot more patience for the website than
the book...

Thanks,
Roger

halejrb-ga, thanks for the cite to
http://www.aish.com/spirituality/philosophy/Why_Dont_Jews_Believe_In_Jesus$.asp
Food for thought!

Here is the site summarizing Zindler's book "The Jesus the Jews Never
Knew."    http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0OBB/is_3_41/ai_105160324
Also of interest is a review of Alice Whealey's "Josephus on Jesus?
http://www.bookreviews.org/pdf/3094_3378.pdf  This is an excellent
summary of the long running controvery on Josephus?reference to Jesus.
 What?s remarkable is that after several centuries of consensus that
the "Jesus passage" was an inserted forgery, the current trend is to
view it as authentic!  Apparently Zindler is ignorant of this
development,(or merely biased), because he states unequivocally that
the Jesus passage is a forgery.