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Q: music ( No Answer,   4 Comments )
Question  
Subject: music
Category: Arts and Entertainment > Music
Asked by: al48-ga
List Price: $10.00
Posted: 14 Jan 2005 12:38 PST
Expires: 13 Feb 2005 12:38 PST
Question ID: 457292
I am researching a piece of classical music written by Ton de Leeuw
out of Amsterdam.  It is called "Trio" for flute, clarinet and piano. 
On my music the copywrite is listed as 1953.   Here is the question: 
In the third movement of this piece it is called a "Scherzando", with
the eighth note getting the beat at 144 on the metronome.  When
played, this does not seem like a scherzando, should the quarter note
be getting the beat?  Also, is there a recording, past or present, of
this piece anywhere?  I have run across a Trio of his written in 1990
for flute, bass clarinet and piano - is it the same piece?

Request for Question Clarification by markj-ga on 14 Jan 2005 13:43 PST
al48 -

"Scherzando" is not a tempo direction, but a direction to play in a
playful or humorous way.  Thus, the term is often used in conjunction
with a tempo direction such as "allegretto" or "allegro."

I am not at all familiar with the piece, so I really can't advise you
as to whether the movemnent can be performed in a playful manner at
the prescribed tempo, but 144 bpm (eighth note) doesn't seem to me to
be necessarily too slow, especially if eighth notes are the basic
units of the melody and rhythm of the movement.  What is the time
signature of the movement?

I have not found a recording of the piece, but I will look further.  I
suspect that any such recording would be an LP and not a CD.  De Leeuw
wrote a rather large number of works (I can give you a list of them),
but very few of his compositions are currently available on CD.  Would
a Dutch or German source for a recording be acceptable to you, if one
could be found?

markj-ga

Clarification of Question by al48-ga on 15 Jan 2005 12:48 PST
Hi Markj,

Thank you for your efforts.  The meter of this movement changes
frequently, going from 6/8 to 9/8 to 10/16 and on and on....
Scherzando, in addition to meaning humorous adn playful also implies a
faster tempo.  With the eighth note getting 144 it seems to plod
along.  I am concerned that there is a printing error and the quarter
note is really supposed to be getting the beat, which would change
things enormously.  If you would send me a list of the works that he
wrote that would be somewhat helpful.  Depending on the cost, I would
be interested in acquiring a recording from Amsterdam/Germany...where
ever one is for sale.  Thank you!

Request for Question Clarification by markj-ga on 15 Jan 2005 13:27 PST
al48 --

Thanks for your clarification.

My point about the definition of "scherzando" was not to question your
judgment that the movement sounds plodding and too slow at 144 bpm
(eighth note), but only to suggest that when the term is used without
an explicit verbal tempo direction it is hard to determine the mood or
style that the composer intended.

For example, a tempo/style direction of "allegretto scherzando" is
very common (more than 13,000 Google search hits), and is defined by
one online reference source as:

"Allegretto Scherzando: Moderately vivacious, playfully but without haste."

Bragadoccio: Musical Terms
http://members.dca.net/slawski/music.html


Another point to consider is that a 6/8 or 9/8 time signature seems to
imply strongly that the intent of the time direction (144 bpm) is to
apply to an eighth note, since that is generally the duration of the
beat that the time signatures contemplate.  (The usual alternative
time direction for a 6/8 or 9/8 rhythm would be for beats-per-minute
for a dotted quarter note.)


I know that none of the above discussion gives you anything close to a
definitive answer to your question, but I hope it is "foor for
thought" anyway.


Finally, as you requested, here is a link to a chronological list of
de Leeuw's works.  You will note that the trio you have is dated 1952,
while the 1990 trio with bass clareinet is listed separately as 1990:

Netherlands Rado: Ton de Leeuw
http://www.omroep.nl/nps/radio/supplement/96/960826/werken.html


As promised, I will look further for a recording of the 1952 trio and
report back to you, but I think that the odds of finding one are long.


markj-ga
Answer  
There is no answer at this time.

Comments  
Subject: Re: music
From: markj-ga on 15 Jan 2005 14:05 PST
 
al48 --

I still cannot find a recording of the 1952 trio, but there is a CD
available that contains the 1990 trio with bass clarinet at a
reasonable price.  Here is a link to the Amazon.com page where new and
used copies are available for $12.99 to $19.98:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00001T39H/qid=1105826440/sr=1-10/ref=sr_1_10/102-8588793-4628112?v=glance&s=classical


As a last resort, you might get some performance insights regarding
the earlier trio from hearing this work with similar instrumentation.
Subject: Ton de Leeuw: scherzando
From: otarney-ga on 26 Jan 2005 16:39 PST
 
al48 -
In response to your question, ?quaver (eighth not) = 144? is quite
standard for something marked scherzando. The other posters are indeed
right, that the term itself carries with it no implicit tempo marking,
but is an indication of the style of the playing which is to be
executed.  If you listen to the Second Movement of Beethoven?s 8th
Symphony, and similarly, Bartok?s Concerto for Orchestra (both of
which are marked Scherzando), you will find that the quaver pulse in
both is near enough the tempo you have marked in your piece.
I would say therefore that the marking is correct as the crochet
(quarter) could not be getting the beat as it is in compound time and
it would have to be the dotted crochet that was getting the beat, in
order to make musical sense. It could only have the beat if it was in
3/4. Since this is the case, if it were ?dotted crochet = 144?, then
the individual quaver pulse would be far, far too fast.
Therefore, I would say that the marking is right, and just to lighten
it up a little; this said, though, the tempo marking is only there as
a rough guide anyway, and you would be quite justified in taking the
quaver pulse a little faster if you felt that it would improve the
feel of the piece.
Here is a list of all of Ton de Leeuw?s works. You will find in this
list that the Trio of 1952, and that of 1990 are not the same piece.
He doesn't appear to be very well recorded - who knows, perhaps you
could be the first to record the trio. I hope this answered you
question.


Dramatic
Alceste (TV op, 3, de Leeuw, after Euripedes), 1962, TV, 13 March 1963
De droom [The Dream] (op with ballet, 3 scenes, de Leeuw, after East
Asia legend, incl. Jap. haiku, trans. H.G. Henderson), 1963,
Amsterdam, Stadsschouwburg, 16 June 1965
De bijen [The Bees] (ballet), 1964
Krishna en Radha (ballet), 1964
Litany of Our Time (TV incid music), 1970
Antigone (music drama, 2 pts, de Leeuw, after Sophocles), 1989?91,
Amsterdam, Westergasfabriek, 25 June 1993

Orchestral and large ensemble
Conc. grosso, str, 1946; Treurmuziek in memoriam Willem Pijper, 1946;
Sym., str, perc, 1950; Sym., str, 1951; Plutos Suite, 1952; Vn Conc.
no.1, 1953; Suite, youth orch, 1954; Mouvements rétrogrades, 1957;
Nritta, 1961; Ombres, 1961; Vn Conc. no.2, 1961; Symphonies of Winds,
1963; Spatial Music I, 1966; Syntaxis II, 1966; Spatial Music IV, 12
insts, 1968; Music for Str, 1970; Music for Org and 12 players,
1970?71; Spatial Music V, 1971; Canzone, 10 brass, 1973?4; Gending,
gamelan, 1975; Alba, chbr conc., small orch, 1982, rev. 1986;
Résonances, 1985; Conc., 2 gui, str, 1988; Danses sacrées, pf, chbr
orch, 1989?90

Choral
Missa brevis, SATB, 1952; 4 koorliederen (anon., medieval Dutch),
SATB, 1953; Prière (Qur?an), SATB, 1953; Psalm 118, 3-pt mixed chorus,
2 trbn, org ad lib, 1966; Lamento pacis I-II-II (Erasmus), mixed
chorus, insts, 1969; The Magic of Music I (Indian music theory text),
2-pt chorus, 1970; Cloudy Forms (Shitao), male vv, 1970; The Birth of
Music (American-Indian myth), mixed vv/male vv, 1975; Car nos vignes
sont en fleur (Bible: Song of Songs), 12-pt mixed chorus; Invocations
(Lat., Pss), Mez, 4-pt mixed chorus, ens, 1983; Chimères (G. de
Nerval), 2Ct, T, 2Bar, B, 1984; Les chants de Kabir, 2Ct, T, 2Bar, B,
1985; Transparence (Fr., Arab mystics), 18-pt mixed chorus, (3 tpt, 3
trbn)/(tpt, 2 hn, 2, trbn, tuba), 1986; 5 hymnes (Kabir), mixed
chorus, 2 pf, 2 perc, 1987?8; A cette heure du jour (Old Sumerian, Fr.
trans. by P. Selk), 4-pt mixed chorus, 1991?2; Elégie pour les villes
détruites (Bible), 4-pt mixed chous, 1994

Chamber and solo instrumental
Str Trio, 1948; Introduzione e passacaglia, org, 1949; Sonata, fl, pf,
1949; Sonata, vn, pf, 1951; Trio, fl, cl, pf, 1952; 5 Sketches, ob,
cl, bn, va, vc, 1952; Sonatine, vn, pf, 1955; Str Qt no.1, 1958; The
Four Seasons, hp, 1964; Schelp [Shell], fl, va, gui, 1964; Str Qt
no.2, 1964; Nightmusic, fl, 1966; Music for Vn, 1967; Music for Ob,
1969; Reversed Night, fl, 1971; Spatial Music II, perc ens, 1971;
Midare, mar, 1972; Sweelinck-variaties, org, 1972?3; Music for trbn,
1973?4; Mo-du, amp clvd/hpd, 1974; Rime, fl, hp, 1974; Modal music,
accdn, 1978?9; Interlude, gui, 1984; Apparences I, vc, 1987;
Apparences II, cl qt, 1987; Hommage à Henri, cl, pf, 1989; Trio, fl, b
cl, pf, 1990; Music for Db, 1989?91; Fauxbordon, fl, cl + b cl, pf,
synth, mar, mand, vn, va, 1991?2; rev. 1993; Music for Mar, Vib and
Jap. Temple Bells, 2 players, 1993; Sax Qt, 1993; Str Qt no.3, 1994
Pf: Scherzo, 1948; Sonatine, 1949; Sonata, 2 pf, 1950; Variations sur
une chanson populaire française, pf/hpd, 1950; 4 Preludes, 1950; 5
études, 1951; 4 ritmische etudes, 1952; 3 Afrikaanse etudes, 1954; 6
dansen, 1955; Men Go their Ways, 1964; Linkerhand en rechterhand,
1976; Les adieux, 1988

Solo vocal
With pf: Berceuse presque nègre (P. van Ostaijen), medium v, pf, 1948;
Diablerie (J. Engelman), S, pf, 1948; Goden en zangers [Gods and
Singers] (A. Roland Holst), S, pf, 1948; Die Weise von Liebe und Tod
(R.M. Rilke), high v, pf, 1948; De ueren van de bittere passie Jesu
Christi (anon., medieval Dutch), medium v, pf, 1949; 5 liederen (F.
García Lorca), high v, pf, 1952; 2 liederen (G. Mistral), S, pf, 1953;
8 europese liederen, medium v, pf, 1954; Haiku (Eng. trans. by H.G.
Henderson), S, pf, 1963
Other: De toverfluit [The Magic Flute], S, fl, vc, pf, 1954; Brabant
(H. Laurey), medium v, orch, 1959; Haiku II (Eng. trans. by H.G.
Henderson), S, orch, 1968; Vocalise, solo v, 1968; 4 liederen, medium
v, 3 rec, 1955; And they shall reign for ever (Bible: Revelations),
Mez, cl, hn, pf, perc, 1981; Natasja (vocalise), B, 1990; 3
Shakespeare Songs, Mez, large ens, 1994?5

Electro-acoustic
Job (radio orat, Bible: Job), solo vv, mixed chorus, orch, elecs,
1956; Electronic Study, 1957; Antiphony, ww qnt, 4-track tape, 1960;
Syntaxis I, tape, 1966; Spatial Music III, 4 inst groups, tape, 1967;
Mountains, cl, tape, 1977; The Magic of Music II (Indian music theory
text), v, tape, 1977; Chronos, tape, 1980; Clair obscur, tape, 1982


Best wishes,

OT
Subject: Re: music
From: al48-ga on 28 Jan 2005 04:42 PST
 
Hi Mark,

I just wanted to thank you for your efforts.  I've printed out all of
the information you sent and will bring it to rehearsal.  We'll play
through it with these thoughts in mind and adjust accordingly.  Maybe
bumping up the bpm is the answer rather than trying to to give the
quarter/dotted quarter the beat.  You were very helpful!  Thank you.
Subject: Re: music
From: markj-ga on 28 Jan 2005 04:48 PST
 
al48 --

Thanks for your kind words.  I am sorry that I was unable to find a
recording for you.


markj-ga

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