I would like to obtain a comprehensive list of rock climbing areas in
North america, listed on the net, that are on private property as
opposed to those on public lands.  One starting place for putting
together this list may be the climbing site data base at
rockclimbing.com. Other places with data bases include crag.com and
rockandice.com.

---

Request for Question Clarification by pafalafa-ga on 02 Feb 2005 05:02 PST

xurando-ga,

Interesting challenge!

The problem, though, is in separating public and private areas.  Take
Citadel, for example:


http://rockclimbing.com/routes/listArea.php?AreaID=2343


How would you advise us to determine whether this a public or private setting?  

The best approach may be to eliminate obvious public sites with names
like "so-and-so state park", and compile a list of what's left.

Let me know what you think.

pafalafa-ga

---

Clarification of Question by xurando-ga on 02 Feb 2005 15:50 PST

As mentioned before my ultimate goal is to get a list containing as
many rock climbing sites in the US that are on private property.
Ultimately I'd expect to see a list containing sites owned by camps,
ski areas, spas and conference centers and dude ranches. I see two
possible approaches to generating such a list,

One is the opposite of what you mentioned, that is to go through the
rockclimbing.com and other lists and pick out those sites specifically
listed as being on private property and eliminate the rest.

The other is to a series of variations on a google or vivisimo search
of rock climbing private property, rock climbing spas, rock climbing
resorts, rock climbing private southeast US, etc.. This will take a
little creativity and time but I do believe it's doable.

---

Request for Question Clarification by umiat-ga on 02 Feb 2005 16:22 PST

Hello, xurando-ga!
 Obviously, the research into compiling such a list could go on for
days, or weeks if you really want a "comprehensive list" of all the
private rock climbing sites existing in the US. A researcher can never
know how many actual private sites there are, or how close they are to
finding all of them. In the guidelines, "Researchers will typically
spend extensive amounts of time (4 hours plus) and do highly thorough
research for questions at the $200 price level."
https://www.answers.google.com/answers/pricing.html  I mention this
because there has to be some sort of understanding between you and the
researcher concerning how many sites you will feel are acceptable
given a 4-6+ hour search. This type of "culling" out of private sites
will involve a lot of time researching climbing areas that turn out
NOT to be private. Going through lists of 30 climbing sites, and
researching their locations, might involve a lot of time with a return
of only two or three private areas.
 Therefore, with that said, how many sites do you consider acceptable
given the pricing guidelines and normal hours that a researcher is
expected to devote to such questions? (Remember, the researcher only
gets 75% of the listing price) If you can provide a base number that
you believe is satisfactory, then a researcher can better judge early
on whether it is even remotely possible to find that many in the
course of 4-6 hours. Be mindful that they may find many more than the
accepted number you state, but it is good to have a starting number
that you will accept as an answer.
 Thanks for you help. I look foward to hearing from you.
umiat

---

Clarification of Question by xurando-ga on 02 Feb 2005 18:02 PST

In retrospect comprehensive is not the right word. Additionally Iwould
settle for "seem to be" on private property as opposed to a specific
number of definite sites.

In regards to a specific number, I myself have generated a small list
of about 10 sites in about 20 minutes of Google searching:
rockclimbing ski resorts, spas, dude ranches, and resorts. I also have
found three privately held rock climbing  areas: Nelson Rocks, Torrent
Falls, and Crawdad Canyon. My sense is that 4-6 hours of work by a
skilled researcher should yield from 30-40 sites minimum that "seem to
be" privately owned rock climbing areas.

Thanks, Xurando-ga

---

Request for Question Clarification by umiat-ga on 03 Feb 2005 07:13 PST

I am working on this, xurando! One more question - does North America
include Canada as far as your purposes are concerned?

Hello, xurando0ga!

 This is a big project. As you have likely seen from looking at
various rock-climbing sites, there is no easy way to cull out public
from private locations. I spent many hours going through lists of
individual rock-climbing sites that did not provide any ownership
details about the property. I also visited numerous websites for
rock-climbing lodges and spas, only to find that the actual climbing
opportunities were off the private property on surrounding public
lands.

 I finally had to restrict my searching to key words on numerous
search engines, and I still waded through about ten climbing locations
for every one that turned out to be on public lands.
 
 Therefore, I believe this list is a good start. I hope you find it helpful!


 
1. HICKORY NUT GORGE - NORTH CAROLINA
***************************************
http://www.lake-lure.com/Climbing.html

 "All rock cliffs in the Hickory Nut Gorge are privately owned. Only
parts of Rumbling Bald are open for climbing. The owners of Rumbling
Bald do not necessarily endorse climbing, they are however not at this
time running us off their land. Climbing in the Hickory Nut Gorge will
only be permitted if we take very good care of this area and treat it
with the upmost care."



2. TURKEY FOOT CLIFFS - KENTUCKY
***********************************
http://www.thinkwestkentucky.com/rockclimbing/dismalrck.html

"This crag is completely on private land, not Corps property, so act accordingly."



3. TRES PIADRAS - NEW MEXICO
******************************
http://www.cottonwoodinn.com/climbing.htm

"Tres Piedras is located south of Antonito, Colorado just across the
New Mexico border. Bolted and Natural-Pro routes are available in a
beautiful setting. Tres Piedras is mainly located on private land,
therefore, the owner asks that you sign a waiver prior to climbing."

"Access: Drive South from Alamosa on Hwy. 285 thru the town of
Antonito and across the New Mexico border to Tres Piedras, turn right
at the light, (approximately 60 miles.) After you pass the U.S.F.S.
Ranger Station, turn right again at the water tower. Follow the dirt
road to where it ends (locked gate) and park. It is a short hike to
South Rock (to your right)."


 
4. THE BUTTERMILKS - CALIFORNIA 
********************************
http://www.getbeta.com/location_climbing.asp?locID=5358

Type - mixed public and private)



5. REIMERS RANCH - TEXAS
************************
http://www.getbeta.com/location_climbing.asp?locID=40

Location Type:  Private Land 



6. PORTER RD. - SOUTH CAROLINA
*******************************
http://www.getbeta.com/location_climbing.asp?locID=45

Location Type:  Private Land

 

7. RED RIVER GORGE - KENTUCKY 
*******************************
http://www.getbeta.com/location_climbing.asp?locID=63

Location Type:  Mixed (public & private) 



 8. SHAWANGUNKS - NEW YORK
*****************************
http://www.getbeta.com/location_climbing.asp?locID=50

Location Type:  Private Land 



 9. CRAWADAD CANYON - UTAH
****************************
 http://www.crawdadcanyon.com/main.html?pg=climb

 "One of the largest privately owned outdoor climbing parks in the
USA. Over 180 bolted  sport climbing routes ranging from 5.6 to 5.13."



10. PARADISE ON THE BRAVOS - TEXAS
***********************************
http://www.texasclimbers.com/crags/paradise-brazos/

"A privately owned Bed and Breakfast has recently open its cliff wall
to rock climbing."



11. NELSON ROCKS PRESERVE - WEST VIRGINIA
*****************************************
http://www.nelsonrocks.org/

 "Nelson Rocks Preserve is an outdoor recreation area located in
scenic North Fork Valley of Pendleton County, West Virginia, offering
public access for hiking, rock climbing and other outdoor pursuits.
The Preserve is a privately owned and funded organization dedicated to
the preservation of Nelson Rocks as a natural, scenic and recreational
resource."



12. SUNDANCE TRAIL GUEST RANCH - COLORADO (climbing sounds sketchy)
********************************************************************
http://www.sundancetrail.com/



13. HORSE PENS 40 PARK - ALABAMA
*********************************
http://www.seclimbers.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=13

"Now open to the public! After a year of being closed, the South's
best boulderfield charges back on to the scene with a new owner and
new attitude. Horsepens 40 is the home of the gritty sloper and
climbers flock from around the country to test their mettle on the
classic boulder problems."

(Horse Pens 40 website: http://www.hp40.com/)



14. SAND ROCK - ALABAMA
*************************
http://www.seclimbers.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=13

"This area is the most popular climbing area in the state of Alabama
and for good reason. Excellent rock, easy access and great views of
Lake Weiss make for a combination that is hard to beat....A member of
the SCC recently purchased the area and climbing is now open to the
public.



15. HIGH POINT - ALABAMA (May now be open or will be shortly)
***************************************************************	 
http://www.seclimbers.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=13

"As the name implies, High Point is all about short sandstone walls
overlooking the valley below. Bring your trad rack and go to work.
Don't forget to keep an eagle eye out for boulders as the top of
Lookout Mountain is a gold mine. You just have to be persistent. The
primary access to this area via a dirt road was closed when vandals
wrecked a communications tower. This area has been recently
incorporated into the Lula Lake Land Trust and there is talk that the
areas will be open to climbing in the near future.
 


16. BOAT ROCK - GEORGIA (one section appears to be open)
**********************************************************
http://www.seclimbers.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=13

"A mile of granite egg shaped boulders has come under considerable
threat as the Atlanta development machine moves closer to devouring
this area. A portion of this boulderfield (7.8-acres) was recently
purchased by The Southeastern Climbers Coalition to help save the area
for future generations."



17. BEE ROCK NORTH - TENNESSEE
*******************************
http://www.seclimbers.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=13

"Bee Rock, Hidden Rock, Spider Rock and Monterrey Crag) Located near
Monterrey,Tennessee in northern Tennessee. The Bee Rock overlook is
maintained by Mike & Mirtha Kopec, who run a bed a breakfast there
(http://www.bbonline.com/tn/gardeninn/). It is not certain whether
they "own" the land, but they do maintain it, and make sure climbers
leave by the posted times. Climbing is permitted and not controlled in
any way at the Bee Rock overlook, except it's only open during posted
times, just like Sunset on Lookout Mountain, bolting is prohibited."



18. LITTLE ROCK CITY - TENNESSEE
*********************************
http://www.seclimbers.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=13

"This great bouldering area, located on private land, has recently
opened with a limit of 30 climbers and 15 parking passes per day. (See
new SCC web article). The landowners concerns include climber volume,
parking, trash and climber/golfer relations. We thank everyone for
complying with the current access procedures and for visiting Little
Rock City sparingly. This is key if long term access to Little Rock
City is to be maintained. Please continually check the SCC website for
updates."



19. DAWSON BLUFFS - KENTUCKY (both private and state owned)
************************************************************
http://www.getbeta.com/location_climbing.asp?locID=54

"Dawson Bluffs (aka Jones-Kenney, Pennyrile Cliffs, Hunter's Bluff,
and The Pumpkin Center) lies on state and private land. The top of the
cliff is state owned (Jones-Kenney) and the base of the cliff is
private land. The routes range from 30ft to 120ft and are composed of
some of the finest cracks in the Midwest."



20. KINGS BLUFFS - TENNESSEE
*****************************
http://www.seclimbers.org/modules.php?name=area&file=kings-bluff

"Kings Bluff is owned and maintained by the SCC!!" 
 


21. BUZZARD POINT - TENNESSE
*****************************
http://www.seclimbers.org/modules.php?name=area&file=buzzard-point 

"Buzzard Point is located on Bowater Paper Company land and is deemed
as a recreational area."



22. CHEROKEE BLUFF - TENNESSE
******************************
http://www.seclimbers.org/modules.php?name=area&file=cherokee-bluff

"The owner of the Bluff itself does not object to climbing. With the
assistance of the Access Fund, early liability concerns were addressed
and a line of communication is maintained with him."



23. HORESHOE CANYON RANCH - ARKANSAS 
*************************************
http://www.climbhcr.com/HOME.html

"Horseshoe Canyon Guest Ranch is located in the beautiful Ozarks of
North West Arkansas. It has much to offer with its guest ranch
packages which include horse back riding, canoeing, hiking, shooting,
cook outs, lodging, great food and now CLIMBING. Horseshoe Canyon is a
sport climber haven; we also have classic traditional routes and some
of the best crack climbing around. The top roping and bouldering is
great too and new routes are going up all the time



24. HUNTER'S BLUFF - KENTUCKY
******************************
http://www.thinkwestkentucky.com/rockclimbing/hunterbluff.html

  "A partially developed, privately-owned crag, these cliffs boast
potential for many more routes."



25. CLIFTY HOLLOW - KENTUCKY
*****************************
http://www.thinkwestkentucky.com/rockclimbing/clftyhlw.html 

 "This area is currently being used with the permission of the land
owner. Do NOT jeopardize this for everyone with your thoughtless
actions."



26. DEVIL'S SIDESADDLE - KENTUCKY
**********************************
http://www.thinkwestkentucky.com/rockclimbing/dvlsidesat.html

 "The area is privately owned so if you do explore, get permission
first and please be considerate. No camping."



27. RIVERVIEW - KENTUCKY
************************
http://www.thinkwestkentucky.com/rockclimbing/riverview.html
"The land is privately-owned by multiple parties, so be very cautious
and overly friendly to everyone you meet.



29. HEISE ROCK (ELEPHANT ROCK) - IDAHO
***************************************
http://www.yellowstoneteton.org/thingstodo/RockClimbing/Heise.html

"Heise Rock is located on PRIVATE LAND.  Be respectful and haul out
your garbage."



30. VIETNAM, MILFORD - MASSACHUSETTS
***************************************
http://www.newenglandbouldering.com/mass/ma.html

"This area is a very popular mountain biking and dirt biking area.
Although the boulders likely lie on private land, climbing appears to
be a minimally intrusive use compared to the mountain bikes and
motorcycles. We do not condone trespassing on private land, and only
provide this information for those who know the area and are willing
to accept the consequences of their actions. However, based on the
high number of bikers, access does not appear to be an issue."



31. QUARTZ MOUNTAIN - TEXAS
*****************************
http://www.texasmountaineers.org/quartz.htm

"Although camping for Quartz Mountain is in Quartz Mountain State
Park, the climbing area itself is on private land. When climbing at
Quartz, take the opportunity to prove to the landowner and the rest of
the non-climbing public that climbers are indeed capable of sensible
land use and climbing practices."



32. PINNACLE ROCK - CONNECTICUT
********************************
http://www.raggedmtn.org/crags/pinnacle.htm

"This is private land. Climbing is tolerated but not formally
sanctioned. Please help clean up the messes left by others at the base
of the crag."



33. CATHOLE CRAG - CONNECTICUT 
********************************
http://www.raggedmtn.org/crags/cathole.htm

"The land ownership here has not yet been determined but climbing is tolerated."



34. SUGARLOAF MOUNTAIN - MARYLAND
***********************************
http://www.bcpl.net/~indy/climbing/guide.html#WhiteRocks

"Sugarloaf Mountain is a privately owned and managed
conservation/recreation area....There are a number of areas within the
Sugarloaf Mountain enviroment for one to climb at. At this time
climbing is a low-profile activity there: the people of Stronghold Inc
are permitting it - as long as you are careful..."



35. THE POOL WALL - OURAY, COLORADO
************************************
http://www.visualadventures.com/ourayclimbing/

The only mention of this climbing area on the net is skimpy - you will
have to buy the guide to learn more:

"Access to the Pool wall was recently saved. The climbs left of the
Two Kids Mine are on Private Property. Please remain on your best
behavior!"



36. MAPLE CANYON - UTAH
************************
http://www.utahheritage.com/press_releases/2002/pr-10-25-2002.htm

"Ever heard of Maple Canyon? Odds are that you have if you are a rock
climber in Utah -- or just about anywhere else in the world, for that
matter. For everyone else, Jason Stevens can fill you in on the
details. Stevens, who runs a climbing shop at the Maple Leaf Company
in Ephraim, wrote a guidebook called Maple Canyon Rock Climbing that
was first published in 1996. Now on its fourth edition, the book gives
readers the scoop on the little canyon located about three miles south
of Fountain Green. "It is definitely a hidden treasure in every sense
of the world," he says. "It is arguably the best rock climbing area in
North America."

"Within two years there were more than 100 rock climbing routes
developed in the canyon. Now, people travel from all over the world to
visit the canyon. The routes have been developed in the canyon (much
of which is privately owned) through the Access Fund, a national fund
that allows rock climbers and private owners to agree on terms for
access, Stevens says."



37. DRAPER'S BLUFF - ILLINOIS
******************************
http://www.rockclimbing.com/routes/listArea.php?AreaID=407

"Inasmuch as the majority of the climbing routes at Draper's Bluff are
on privately owned land, and that the development and maintainence of
the "park" is done at the expense of the land owner, please remember
that donations are suggested and welcome."



38. CITY OF ROCKS - IDAHO
**************************
http://gorp.away.com/gorp/resource/us_nra/id_cityr.htm

PUBLIC/PRIVATE - "Established in 1988, the Reserve encompasses 14,300
acres of land (about 1/2 is privately owned). City of Rocks is one of
the finest technical rock climbing sites anywhere. About 350 routes
have been described to date. One hundred-to-300 foot spires provide
most of the climbing opportunities."



39. THE CUP & SAUCER - MANITOULIN ISLAND, CANADA
*************************************************
http://blacksbay.com/rock/climbing.html

"The Cup & Saucer is private land, located East of West Bay (southwest
of Little Current) on Hwy. 541. This is approx. 30 km. from BBay, in
the heart of Manitoulin Island.
There are numerous hiking trails through hardwood forests in this
area, and is one of the most favorite climbing places on the Island.
Numerous climbing clubs from the region schedule special trips to
Manitoulin Island to enjoy their sport."



40. DIGBY NECK AREA - NOVA SCOTIA
***********************************
http://www.peak.ca/rock/digby.html

"Exciting climbing news in the southwest part of the province! Three
new crags are currently being developed in the Digby Neck area, with
up to 20 roped climbs established so far between 5.6 and 5.12b/c on
volcanic basalt...Apparently these crags are on private land, so if
you visit please be respectful."




DUDE RANCHES WITH ROCK CLIMBING
***********************************
 There are a lot of dude ranches and lodges that advertise
rock-climbing along with their activities. The major problem is that
you cannot assume that the rock climbing is on the ranch property.
Most of the ranches and resorts I have looked at offer rock-climbing
activities on public lands "near" the resort.

For example, all these ranches list rock-climbing among their
activities, yet not one seems to offer it on their own private
property:
http://www.guestranches.com/activity.php?activityid=25


===


 Again - I hope this list provides a good start!


Sincerely,

umiat
 

Search Strategy on multiple search engines

privtate rock climbing
rock climbing on private land
rock climbing AND private land
rock-climbing resorts
rock-climbing lodges
rock-climbing dude ranches
privately owned rock climbing
rock climbing AND "privately owned"

This was admittedly a tough problem and remains so.  In general the
results were not much different than I got myself with about three
hours+ of effort. I need to go further on this problem to be able to
identify potentials clients to sell a product to. The generated list
while helpful does not get me over the hump. Thank you.

xurando-ga,

You're right...this IS a tough one, and umiat-ga did a great job.

I had been looking into it myself at one point, and had taken a
different tact.  Have a look at this link:


://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1&rls=GGLD%2CGGLD%3A2003-43%2CGGLD%3Aen&q=site%3Arockclimbing.com+%22private+land%22+OR+%22private+property%22+intitle%3Astates&btnG=Search


and let me know if it produces the type of results that may be of
interest.  If so, I can readily expand it to other sites and terms.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

pafalafa-ga

One good resource for information on private climbing areas doesn't
seem to be listed here:  The Access Fund.
Link for regional coordinators:  http://www.accessfund.org/about/rc.php


WingLady
http://www.JoshuaTreeTrad.com

I would also recommned an off-line resource - a book called Rock and
Road, now in its second edition. Tim Toula went cross country
documenting every single known climbing area regardless of size.
Included is much of the info you're seeking.

Tom
<a href="http://www.allclimbing.com">http://www.allclimbing.com</a>