What is the correct story on the Manurhin P-4's imported during the late 70's? |
Clarification of Question by
jetdrvr-ga
on
22 Jan 2005 21:52 PST
I was told that they were used by undercover West Berlin police or the
German anti-terrorist unit, GSG-9. I can find a reference to the P-1
model, which was used by West German police, but none pertaining to
the shorter-barreled P-4. They seem to be quite rare. Very rare, in
fact, and I have two sequentially-serial numbered weapons, one with
factory zero target and owners manual in German.
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Request for Question Clarification by
techtor-ga
on
23 Jan 2005 02:43 PST
Hello Jetdrvr,
I have seen mention of "Manurhin" and "P-4" in pages about Walther
pistols. Perhaps the Walther P4 is the gun you are talking about?
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Clarification of Question by
jetdrvr-ga
on
23 Jan 2005 17:56 PST
The Manurhin P-4 is a P-38 that was manugactured under license by the
French arms maunfacturer, Manurhin. The Russians had seized the
Walther factory and the patent holders licensed the manufacturing
rights to Manurhin.
I did a Google search On "Manurhin P-38" and got a German web page.
Apparently, the guns are still quite available in the P-1 version, the
standard longer-barreled version.
But the gun in question was obtained during the late 70's and is the
shorter, more easily concealed version. According to the guy I bought
them from, who died several years ago, and the company he bought them
from, which went out of business several years ago, the guns were used
by GSG-9. I think this is suspect. I don't know when GSG-9 was
formed, but probably after the Muchih Olympics slaughter when the
Israeli ateletes were murdered by the Palestinian terrorists and the
attempt by the German police and military to rescue the few remaining
hostages ended in a spectacular disaster.
Both magazines are marked:
P1
9mm x 19,
with no date of manufacture. The pistol's frame is identical to the
standard P-38, so Model P-1 magazines are supplied.
The pistol is both blued and parkerized.
The frame is alloy. The slide, hammer and barrel are steel. The left
flat side of the frame is blued. The remainder of the slide, the
hammer and barrel are parkerized. The markings are as follows:
On the front of the left side of the slide, read: MANUFACTURE DE MACHINES
DU HAUT-RHIN
To the immediate right of that is Manurhin's trademark, a modofied
wheel device with MANURHIN inscribed through it. The name is enclosed
in a rectangular box.
Under the trademark, FRANCE appears in smaller block capitals.
To the right of that appears PISTOLET P4, and beneath that, 9mmx19.
The last three digits of the frame's serial number appear beneath
that. There is a proof mark which looks something like a flag flying
and curling in the wind, on the right lower corner of the blued
protion of the slide.
The slide lock and slide release are parkerized. The slide release
bears a proof mark of a four-pointed, stylized star with a dot in the
center.
Beneath the slide release is the serial nimber, stamped. Beneath that,
on the part of the trigger guard that connects at the frame, is a
proofmark of a crysanthamum, almost identical to Japanese proof marks
that I have seen on Airsaka rifles, indicating that the rifle is the
property of the emperor.
On the left side of the front sight blade, a number"2" is inscribed.
The gun shows holster wear around the muzzle and a bit on the lower
left corner of the front of the slide.
The test target and owners manual accompanying one gun are in German.
The serial number of the guns is stamped on the target and a full 8
rounds were fired for a function test.
The manual is a Walther manual and shows all the models manufactured
by Walther. It does not display the P4, only the TPH,PP,PPK,PP-SUPER,
the P 38K,(which is the snubnosed version of the P-38,) and the P-38,
model P-1.
On the cover of the boolket appears the Walther trademark, under that,
"P4", a picture of the weapon, and the German word,
"Bedienungsanleitung".
The grips are black plastic. There are no proof marks on the right side of the gun.
There you have it.
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Clarification of Question by
jetdrvr-ga
on
23 Jan 2005 18:11 PST
The Manurhin P-4 is a P-38 that was manugactured under license by the
French arms maunfacturer, Manurhin. The Russians had seized the
Walther factory and the patent holders licensed the manufacturing
rights to Manurhin.
I did a Google search On "Manurhin P-38" and got a German web page.
Apparently, the guns are still quite available in the P-1 version, the
standard longer-barreled version.
But the gun in question was obtained during the late 70's and is the
shorter, more easily concealed version. According to the guy I bought
them from, who died several years ago, and the company he bought them
from, which went out of business several years ago, the guns were used
by GSG-9. I think this is suspect. I don't know when GSG-9 was
formed, but probably after the Munich Olympics slaughter when the
Israeli atheletes were murdered by the Palestinian terrorists and the
attempt by the German police and military to rescue the few remaining
hostages ended in a spectacular disaster.
Both magazines are marked:
P1
9mm x 19,
with no date of manufacture. The pistol's frame is identical to the
standard P-38, so Model P-1 magazines are supplied.
The pistol is both blued and parkerized.
The frame is alloy. The slide, hammer and barrel are steel. The left
flat side of the frame is blued. The remainder of the slide, the
hammer and barrel are parkerized. The markings are as follows:
On the front of the left side of the slide, read: MANUFACTURE DE MACHINES
DU HAUT-RHIN
To the immediate right of that is Manurhin's trademark, a modofied
wheel device with MANURHIN inscribed through it. The name is enclosed
in a rectangular box.
Under the trademark, FRANCE appears in smaller block capitals.
To the right of that appears PISTOLET P4, and beneath that, 9mmx19.
The last three digits of the frame's serial number appear beneath
that. There is a proof mark which looks something like a flag flying
and curling in the wind, on the right lower corner of the blued
portion of the slide.
The slide lock and slide release are parkerized. The slide release
bears a proof mark of a four-pointed, stylized star with a dot in the
center.
Beneath the slide release is the serial number, stamped. Beneath that,
on the part of the trigger guard that connects at the frame, is a
proofmark of a chrysanthemum, almost identical to Japanese proof marks
that I have seen on Airsaka rifles, indicating that the rifle is the
property of the emperor.
On the left side of the front sight blade, a number"2" is inscribed.
The gun shows holster wear around the muzzle and a bit on the lower
left corner of the front of the slide.
The test target and owners manual accompanying one gun are in German.
The serial number of the gun is stamped on the target and a full 8
rounds were fired for a function test.
The manual is a Walther manual and shows all the models manufactured
by Walther. It does not display the P4, only the TPH,PP,PPK,PP-SUPER,
the P38K,(which is the snubnosed version of the P-38,) and the P-38,
model P-1.
On the cover of the boolket appears the Walther trademark, under that,
"P4", a picture of the weapon, and the German word,
"Bedienungsanleitung".
The grips are black plastic. There are no proof marks on the right side of the gun.
There you have it.
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Request for Question Clarification by
techtor-ga
on
24 Jan 2005 08:45 PST
Hello again Jetdrvr,
Based on what I've researched on, these snub-nosed experiments on the
P-38 frame were issued to West German Police initially, and then they
were being exported to the US after new weapons were introduced. GSG-9
was certainly formed after the 1973 massacre, but it does not remove
the possibility that some members may have decided to procure some
P-4s, even Manurhin-made pieces, and carry them. It is from this
website that I got seemingly the only history online of this gun:
http://www.shemaguns.com/walther_p4.htm
Note that there's no time frame described for the events in this
history of the P-4. Perhaps a book about Walther P-series guns will
shed more light on the subject.
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Clarification of Question by
jetdrvr-ga
on
24 Jan 2005 16:34 PST
Thanks. Yeah, it's possible that GSG-9 members could have used the
guns, as many special ops people are allowed to select personal
backups.
There is, of course, a substantial difference between the P38K and the
P-4's barrel length.
This is truly an obscure gun. The guy that sold them to me, now long
dead and good riddance, told me that only around 700 were imported. I
had to buy two P-1's before he'd sell me the P-4's. I immediately
sold the P-1's.
These guns are sequentially serial-numbered pieces in NRA excellent,
in the boxes with spare mags. They might be worth something to a
Walther collector. I've though about putting them up on Auction Arms
or antoher website, but they're so obscure that there's probably no
demand for them. Another curio.
Many thanks.
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