|
|
Subject:
internal pressure
Category: Science > Math Asked by: anewwaytopush-ga List Price: $2.00 |
Posted:
03 Feb 2005 13:25 PST
Expires: 05 Mar 2005 13:25 PST Question ID: 468285 |
When a molecule hits a surface it imparts a force and were it not for another molecule directly oposite of it then it would move the surface. Whether inside or outside makes no difference. There is only one formula for calculating the movement and it doesn't ask if the case is inside or outside. So why do so many people think it is not possible to upset that balance causing a closed container to move? |
|
There is no answer at this time. |
|
Subject:
Re: internal pressure
From: tpmii-ga on 03 Feb 2005 14:01 PST |
Barring external forces, the center of mass of the object must remain stationary. So if the moelcules decide to gang up on one wall, they achieve this by sending molecules to the other wall, and the forces cancel out. So if placed in a vacuum, the object will remain stationary. However, if there are molecules on the outside, they can indeed decide to gang up on the object and act in unison to cause the object to move. This effect is commonly referred to as wind. I hope this helps. |
Subject:
Re: internal pressure
From: anewwaytopush-ga on 03 Feb 2005 21:16 PST |
To tpmii-ga I think you you know perfectly well that molecules don't think. So you should. Consider what makes a baseball pitch curv or a golf ball slice. See why I am asking by studying http://newlifter.tripod.com When an object hits a surface the force it imparts will be affected by the angle of approach. The sharper angle the less the pressure. That's what makes Bernoulli work isn't it. |
Subject:
Re: internal pressure
From: lostpost-ga on 04 Feb 2005 09:03 PST |
Well hello again - still working on your perpetual motion machine I see. In answer to your question, you need to look at what happens after the collision. To make this simple to visualise, lets pretend there is one particle in your container (which I personally am imagining as an empty baked bean can, but hey) As the particle hits the end wall, it bounces off and there is a change in the momentum of both the particle and the container. The container will move away from the collision, and the particle will bounce back in the opposite direction. This gives you the movement you are looking for. BUT at some point in the future, the particle which is now heading in the opposite direction hits the wall at the other end of the container. There is another change in the momentum of both particle and container - in each case this is in the opposite direction to the previous collision, and the two changes cancel each other out. (Note also that the total momentum of particle + container is constant throughout, it is just how it is divided between the two that changes.) So you see, for a single particle over time the container does not move as the particle tries to move it first one way and then the other. Add in all the other particles doing the same thing, and the changes average out due to the numbers of particles as well as over time. Result - no movement. I am afraid the flaw in your plans and previous examples always comes down to not following the particle through every collision with all surfaces after the first - this is what cancels out your hoped for gain in momentum of the container at the first collision. |
Subject:
Re: internal pressure
From: anewwaytopush-ga on 04 Feb 2005 11:11 PST |
To lostpost-ga; "As the particle hits the end wall, it bounces off and there is a change in the momentum of both the particle and the container. The container will move away from the collision, and the particle will bounce back in the opposite direction. This gives you the movement you are looking for." That's good as far as it goes BUT when it is hitting the upper surface it imparts force according to it's angle of approach which is a sharper angle than when it hits the bottom surface. This is what the combimation of relative motion and Bernoulli does. Just like what makes a baseball able to move sideways after it is pitched. Please don't call it perpetual motion as it is a powered machine. And remember there are two ways to move an object. Directly apply a force or remove a counter force that was holding it still. That's what Bernoulli does (removes a force). newlifter.com |
Subject:
Re: internal pressure
From: lostpost-ga on 04 Feb 2005 11:45 PST |
Your references to the angles are not correct I am afraid. You can follow my previous argument, but assume an angled impact (and angled end surfaces if you like) You can resolve the forces into three perpendicular directions (X, Y and Z, or fowards and back, up and down, left and right) and look at each individually. The same model applies - the resultant forces in each axis will cancel out. All ideas of this kind fall into the category of perpetual motion machines as they rely on a physical principle that could be used to create a perpetual motion machine, as is the case here. This is usually the simplest test that something has gone wrong in the initial analysis, but you seem to require proof of your mistake from elementary principles, which is what I have tried to provide. |
Subject:
Re: internal pressure
From: anewwaytopush-ga on 04 Feb 2005 17:26 PST |
To lostpost-ga "but assume an angled impact (and angled end surfaces if you like) You can resolve the forces into three perpendicular directions (X, Y and Z, or fowards and back, up and down, left and right) and look at each individually. The same model applies - the resultant forces in each axis will cancel out." That would be true if the attempt were to shape a container like you seem to be assuming. I thnk you have not looked at the reference http://newlifter.com This project is like a cylinder with rotating fluid and two end covers also rotating but one clockwise and the other counter clockwise this puts the fluid between two surfaces moving opposite. One with the fluid and one against. That unballances the velocities on the surfaces and the pressure. Try again. |
If you feel that you have found inappropriate content, please let us know by emailing us at answers-support@google.com with the question ID listed above. Thank you. |
Search Google Answers for |
Google Home - Answers FAQ - Terms of Service - Privacy Policy |