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Q: Understand the life and the death ( Answered,   12 Comments )
Question  
Subject: Understand the life and the death
Category: Science
Asked by: bourini-ga
List Price: $2.00
Posted: 07 Feb 2005 14:11 PST
Expires: 09 Mar 2005 14:11 PST
Question ID: 470594
What is the death mean, and how I'm a live? What is the difference
between life and death?
Answer  
Subject: Re: Understand the life and the death
Answered By: hedgie-ga on 08 Feb 2005 22:53 PST
 
There are certainly different views and aspects of this concept.

  Nevertheless, this $2 question was posted to 'science' and deserves
  a simple scientific definition as an answer.
 
  First definition from physics point of view was given by Schrodinger 
  (of the QM fame) in  his 1944 book  called "What is Life"

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0521427088/qid=1107930404

His view is described here
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/life/

 View changed a little as  Complex Systems evolved and difference
between carbon based and other form receded a bit.
  The original (thermodynamical) definition  is still accepted:
 Living system is able to maintain itself in a region of
thermodynamical states, which are far from equilibrium. It is (by
necessity of the Third Law) an open system which interacts with its
environments and extracts negentropy, necessary to keep itself in that
meta-stable regimen.

 During death, system looses this capability and starts to equilibrate
with environment (process, often called decay starts at death).
  
 Models of life are important topic of Complex System studies, which have
 created related, but more general concept of Artificial Life, where 
 thermodynamical fitness (ability to compete for negentropy) is replaced by
computational selection algorithm (e.g. ability to survive and
reproduce in Genetical Algorithm based selection process).
 Being programmed to reproduce is not a necessary attribute of life -
this subclass of general concept can be called 'purposeful life' . The
multi-purpose life and life without purpose are rare, they are not
excluded.

enjoy life

Hedgie
Comments  
Subject: Re: Understand the life and the death
From: pinkfreud-ga on 07 Feb 2005 14:21 PST
 
Here's an interesting article about the changing views on the
definition of "death":

http://www.miracosta.edu/home/lmoon/wk3death.html
Subject: Re: Understand the life and the death
From: armagossa-ga on 08 Feb 2005 00:01 PST
 
Death means your heart and brain stop responding. You are alive
because those two organs is still functioning. Why is it still
functioning? Because you have an "unseen and unmeasurable substance"
inside of you, called "The Soul". What is the difference between life
and death? What do you mean, you dont know the difference? Go to a
funeral and compare yourself with the one sleeping inside the coffin.
Hope that helps.

Regards,
-d-
Subject: Re: Understand the life and the death
From: pugwashjw-ga on 08 Feb 2005 06:28 PST
 
What the bible says about the "soul". The word "soul" is translated
from the Hebrew word " ne'phesh" and the Greek word "psy-khe". To many
people, "Soul" means a spirit part of the human person that survives
death. But is this true?.
Genesis 2;7 says that God formed man and he " came to be a living
soul" NOT that he was "given" a soul. The original word translated
here is "ne'phesh"
First Corinthians 15;45 .."It is even so written; "The first man Adam
became a living soul". The last Adam [ Jesus] became a life giving
spirit"
First Peter 3;20.." In Noah's days..a few people, that is, eight
souls, were carried safely through the water".
Genesis 9;5.. "Beside that, your blood of your souls  [ or lives] shall I ask back"
Joshuah 11;11..they went striking every soul [ again, ne'phesh] that
was in it with the edge of the sword"
All the above scriptures indicate souls are complete living persons,
and not a separate part.
Animals also are souls..Genesis 1;20,21,24,25..a swarm of living souls.
Leviticus 24; 17,18 "In case a man strikes any soul [ ne'phesh] of
mankind fatally, he should be put to death"...
If souls were separate, would they bleed? Could they be affected by a sword blade.
Ezekiel 18;4.. Look!, All the souls- to me they belong...the soul that
is sinning..it itself will die.
The idea that there is a separate soul that survives death goes
totally against this scripture. But a soul being the complete person
makes common sence
Ecclesiastes 12;7 says that there is a life force that is given to us
by God and taken back when we die, but it is a force and not a
personality. The Hebrew word for this force is "ru'ach".
Ecc. 3;19 says men and animals have the same eventuality and they all
have the same spirit [ ru'ach]
Psalm 146;4..His spirit [ ru'ach] goes out, he goes back to his
ground; in that day his thoughts do perish". Some translations render
"ru'ach" as "breath'
Immortality of a separate soul is a Greek philosophy idea formed in
ancient mystery cults and elaborated on by Plato, the Greek writer.
Subject: Re: Understand the life and the death
From: racecar-ga on 08 Feb 2005 11:27 PST
 
Really, I don't think the question of the difference between life and
death has much to do with a soul.  If it did, it would be very bad for
doctors, because they don't learn about souls in medical school, so
how could they ever pronounce someone dead?  Also there is no known
way to detect a soul, so assuming that there is a soul which leaves
the body when a person dies does not help provide a tangible
distiction between life and death.  This is how I think of it: your
body is a machine, with lots of systems and parts, like a car.  Just
like a car, your body can break down and stop working for any one of a
huge number of reasons.  Mechanics can fix minor break-downs, but
eventually the problems become too severe, and the car is totalled. 
In the same way, your body can break down and be 'brought back to
life'--for example, your heart can stop, but CPR or a defibrillator
can sometimes start it again.  Your brain is very complicated though,
and doctors really can't do much to repair it.  So if your brain gets
messed up, that's pretty much it.  One of the things that messes up
your brain is a lack of oxygen.  So if your breathing stops (no more
oxygen coming in) or your heart stops (no more oxygen getting pumped
to your brain) pretty soon irreparable damage is done to your brain,
and you're dead (totalled).
Subject: Re: Understand the life and the death
From: spookysr-ga on 08 Feb 2005 12:33 PST
 
I guess, Bourini, you are pondering the meaning of life, especially
when you ponder how "some of the people" of 'Allah' are violating his
"prophet's" laws and regulation relating to a spiritual striving to
cause the death of others who are not believers in his writings (i.e.
Arabic: jahada). Those people have lost their way and have turned away
from the original teachings of that "prophet". Certaintly Abraham's
son Ishmael, the supposed father of Islam, would never condone what is
being done in Allah's (simply translates: elohim or lord) name today.
It would horrify Ishmael as it should do to us today.

However, conversely, some of the followers of Christ have done the
same thing starting with Constantine the Great in 325 AD at Nicea
(i.e. originated the first 'universal' religion he called 'catholicus'
in Latin). He embraced the the occult beliefs of his mother, Helene,
who was a devout follower of the works of Aristotle, but mainly Plato.
Plato, and his teacher Aristotle, were devout followers of the ancient
Sumerian (i.e. Babylonian) teachings of things like "life after
death", the "immortality of the soul", triune gods, and other
fallacies adopted by Constantine and most of the organized
Judeo-Christian religions of today.

However, don't be despondant or loose your way over what how a few
'apostates of truth' conduct themsleves. An ancient South West Asian
of Roman birth once wrote to his brothers and sisters at Colossae (a
city in ancient Turkey): "For God is my witness of how I am yearning
for all of YOU in such tender affection as Christ Jesus has. And this
is what I continue praying, that YOUR love may abound yet more and
more with ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE and full discernment; that YOU may make
sure of the more important things, so that YOU may be flawless and not
be stumbling others up to the day of Christ, and may be filled with
righteous fruit, which is through Jesus Christ, to God's glory and
praise." - There is hope for mankind. You just need to diligently and
earnestly seek it through "accurate knowledge"...

Try starting by praying incessantly to the God of Abraham, by His
chosen name, to help you find the truth about everything you need to
know. Somehow I feel the answers you seek will come to you somehow.
Just maybe not in the way you expect. Your first task of "due
diligence" is to conduct a private search for that Divine name. I
would tell you but it is better for you to do your on knocking at that
Divine door yourself... ;-)  GOOD HUNTING!
Subject: Re: Understand the life and the death
From: crabcakes-ga on 08 Feb 2005 13:05 PST
 
This is from pinkfreud-ga, at her request:

"To those who have turned this simple question into a soapbox:

Religious proselytizing in inappropriate circumstances is, in my
experience, counter-productive. You are much more likely to hurt your
cause than to help it.

To witness is not just to stand up in court and start shouting. You
wait until you are properly summoned to testify."
Subject: Re: Understand the life and the death
From: tlspiegel-ga on 08 Feb 2005 13:15 PST
 
According to Merriam-Webster dictionary:

Main Entry: alive 
Pronunciation: &-'lIv
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English on life, from on + lIf life
1 : having life : not dead or inanimate
2 : still in existence, force, or operation : ACTIVE <kept hope alive>
3 : knowing or realizing the existence of : SENSITIVE <alive to the danger>
4 : marked by alertness, energy, or briskness
5 : marked by much life, animation, or activity : SWARMING <streets
alive with traffic>
6 -- used as an intensive following the noun <the proudest boy alive>


Main Entry: death 
Pronunciation: 'deth
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English deeth, from Old English dEath; akin to Old
Norse dauthi death, deyja to die -- more at DIE
1 : a permanent cessation of all vital functions : the end of life --
compare BRAIN DEATH
2 : the cause or occasion of loss of life <drinking was the death of him>
3 capitalized : the destroyer of life represented usually as a
skeleton with a scythe
4 : the state of being dead
5 a : the passing or destruction of something inanimate <the death of
vaudeville> b : EXTINCTION
6 : CIVIL DEATH
7 : SLAUGHTER
8 Christian Science : the lie of life in matter : that which is unreal
and untrue : ILLUSION
- at death's door : close to death : critically ill
- to death : beyond endurance : EXCESSIVELY <bored to death>
Subject: Re: Understand the life and the death
From: journalist-ga on 08 Feb 2005 16:05 PST
 
Greetings Bourini,

An analogy related by the character of Sister Madeline (Linda Hunt) in
the film Dragonfly compares being under the influence of anaesthesia
to "levels of death."  An anaesthetist takes a person down to a level
of unconsciousness so that a surgeon may operate on the patient while
the patient cannot *consciously* register the effects of a major
surgical process. You may want to research gradations of anesthetic
depth to better understand the many levels of drug-induced
unconsciousness.

As you may already know, an unembalmed corpse continues to grow hair
and fingernails for a few days to weeks after "death."  Now, how can a
"dead" body continue to do that?  So the question is really not "What
is death?"  The question is "Where is death?" or "At what
unconsciousness level does death occur?"  Also, the definition of
death comes exclusively from the living not the dead -- death still
lies in the realm of speculation, or in an agreed-upon definition from
the living of what constitutes non-life.

Most of the major religions of today believe in a life of spirit after
a death of the physical body.  This perception brings great comfort to
many people but as clever as the human race believes itself to be, no
one knows for sure if the spirit and the human body are two separate
entities.  For instance, Christianity will point to the fact that
Jesus being resurrected after three days of "death" somehow proves
life after death but that appears to be a convenient illusion: The
Christians claim Jesus is God come to Earth, and they also believe God
is omnipotent and cannot die, so how could Jesus have actually died if
is also God?

You've asked a very interesting question, and I look forward to
reading more comments on it.

Best regards,
journalist-ga
Subject: Re: Understand the life and the death
From: spookysr-ga on 08 Feb 2005 19:32 PST
 
Bourini asked: "What is the death mean, and how I'm a live? What is
the difference between life and death?"

Bourini's question is obviously in the realm of a "belief system"
based inquiry. He/she wants our take on the original question which
sounds like a request for our interpretation based on our secular
belief systems. Science, evolution, and aetheism are still a belief
system or "religion" as there is a strongly held central theorectical
theme to one's personal beliefs.

Also Bourini is clearly an Arabic name which is indicative of a
possible Islamic belief system. The sub-standard English syntax is
indicative of a non-native born American or Britian. This too
indicates a non-traditional western religion. With all of the current
events and recent religious focus on Islam (Muslims) it was intuitive
to choose answers (comments) that sound like soapbox proselytizing. I
personally think pugwashjw (et al) gave a very insightful comments.

I too think the question was a good one...
Subject: Re: Understand the life and the death
From: journalist-ga on 09 Feb 2005 07:52 PST
 
Well, I must correct one of my claims if Snopes is to remain an
accurate myth dispelling site:
http://www.snopes.com/science/nailgrow.asp - I guess all those stories
my grandmother told me about corpses weren't necessarily accurate. 
lol

Best regards,
journalist-ga
Subject: Re: Understand the life and the death
From: spookysr-ga on 09 Feb 2005 11:55 PST
 
<<Sound of Spooky climbing on his soapbox>>  ;->
Journalist,

I also wanted to correct something else you said in the same posting:
"[Christians] claim Jesus is God come to Earth...so how could Jesus
have actually died if is also God?"

This belief that Jesus Christ was God was NOT held by the first
original Christians. They believed him, rightly so, to be a separate
and distinct personality from God or the Son of God. The deification
of Christ, by virtue of Plato's pagan belief in Babylonian the belief
system, namely a false triune 3-in-1 god or The Trinity, was clearly
the anti-christian Emperor Constantine's artifical construction in 325
AD at Nicea to win pagan converts to his new universal
psuedo-christian church. He only converted to so-called Christianity
on his death bed. This 'universal church' was the actual foundation
for most religions today who also profess to be Christian.

Jesus constantly asserted his subordination, subservance, and his
secondary status to the God of Abraham or Jesus' heavenly Father
mentioned by Moses at Exodus 6:3 and later by David at Psalms 83:18.
John 6:38, and many other scriptures written by the apostle John, help
the reader to understand that Jesus was SENT by a separate and
distinct superior entity. Therefore it is just one more thing that
proves that some of our organized religions today have totally
inaccurate knowledge and continue to propagate it to the masses. 
Incidently the word TRINITY can not be found anywhere in the 66 books
of the bible.

So its not fair to true Christians to say "Christians" said this. It
would be more accurate to say "Christendom" said it. This label would
mean "the present dominian of 'professed' Christianity". Just wanted
to correct the record. We actually are kinda' in agreement but for
different reasons.  :-)

PS - Bourini - I hope this discussion helps you get a broader picture
of the big forest dispite all of those trees in the way... :-)

<<Sound of dismounting the soapbox>>
Subject: Re: Understand the life and the death
From: locoty-ga on 12 Feb 2005 14:11 PST
 
we can understand death n life from two side, scientific or religic.
whatever science says, the right one is still the religion. Science
have to explain everything in this universe, and the religion doesn't
have to prove anything because it comes from one Supreme Power we
called GOD. we can say that if heart n brain stop then the person die,
but how if we take someone's brain n heart then we put them to life
support equipment,do we call that person "life"?That's just what
science said so we can understand about death and life. It's GOD's way
and we never know it....

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