Dear Researchers,
The involved nature of my question requires that I give you some
background history before I ask it:
Approximately 1,000 years before Christ, the Manifestation of God,
Zoroaster prophesized the return of the Spirit of God (Ahura Mazda),
foretelling the appearance of certain astronomical signs to herald the
return. At the time of Christ?s birth, the three wise men (referred to
as Magi in other translations of the Bible) observed that the
prophesy had been fulfilled and were searching for the ?King of the
Jews.?3.) The prophecy foretold that when a prominent luminous body
would enter the constellation of Pisces, it would herald the return of
the Spirit of God. In the time of Christ?s birth, Jewish astrologers
associated the planet Jupiter with royalty or even a ruler of the
universe. Saturn was associated with Palestine and with the deity who
protected Israel. Pisces was associated with the nation of Israel.
I am searching for quotations from the Holy Scriptures of Judaism and
or Zoroasterism which refer to the prophecy(s) that foretold that the
coming of Christ (or the return of Zoroaster, or the return of the
Holy Spirit) would be proclaimed by an extrodinary astronomical or
astrological event. Can you help me?
Regards,
Gary Kerns |
Request for Question Clarification by
pafalafa-ga
on
10 Feb 2005 07:07 PST
moonman9-ga,
Pretty fascinating question you've asked here.
You might want to have a look at this site devoted to an astrological
explanation of the Star of Bethlehem:
http://www.eclipse.net/~molnar/
The site is interesting because it is devoted to astrology as it was
likely practiced in Biblical times, rather than its modern-day
incarnations.
The work here mentions two ancient sources of information about the
stars beyond the Bible itself:
--"The so-called ?bible of astrology? the Tetrabiblos of Claudius Ptolemy..."
--"Firmicus Maternus, an astrologer of Constantine the Great?s time in
AD 334,...wrote his Mathesis on astrology..."
So the Mathesis and the Tetrabiblos emerge as two ancient (but
post-Biblical) texts of interest.
Would knowning more about these sources be of interest to you as an
answer to your question? Or are you only looking for
Jewish/Zoroastrian sources that pre-date the bith of Christ?
Let me know....Thanks.
pafalafa-ga
|
Clarification of Question by
moonman9-ga
on
11 Feb 2005 20:12 PST
Dear Pafalafa-ga,
Although I use the pen name ?Moonman9,? my name is Gary Kerns. What is
your name? Should I use Pafalafa for your name? What does Pafalafa-ga
mean? How did you happen to be assigned to my query? By chance are you
a Zoroastrian? I lived and worked with Zoroastrians while residing in
Africa (for 28 years). Perhaps we have common friends.
So that we can work on the project in parallel, I will answer your
questions before investigating the information sources you mentioned.
Allow me to organize my query better:
1. I?m investigating the relationship between the return of Zoroaster
(the Greek transliteration of Persian ?Zarathustra?) and the First
Coming of Christ.
2. Zoroaster prophesized that He would return (other terms that He may
have used are God, or the Spirit of God, or Ahura Mazda), and that His
return would be heralded by a remarkable astrological/astronomical
event in the heavens. Can you guide me to verses in Zoroastrian
scripture in which His return is mentioned?
3. Are there astrological references in Zoroastrian scriptures that
would indicate where he would return? For example, in Jewish
scriptures the Talmud refers to astrological signs of the time as
meaning the following:
"Jewish astrologers associated the planet Jupiter with royalty or even
a ruler of the universe. Saturn was associated with Palestine and with
the deity who protected Israel. Pisces was associated with the nation
of Israel. It seems that at the time of Christ?s birth, Jupiter and
Saturn aligned themselves up in Pisces. In other words, the Star of
Bethlehem may not have been a star."
4. What are the astronomical/astrological associations in Zoroastrian
scripture, which the three Magi used to guide themselves to the birth
of Christ?
5. I found the above information about the Talmud in a narrative, but
I need to know where in Jewish scripture it is found. Can you help me?
6. Perhaps if I give some quotations that I have collected, they will
help you on the way. Below is a quotation from the Gospel of Jesus,
which documents that Zoroastrians were the first Gentiles to see
Jesus:
?Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea, there came wise men
from the East to Jerusalem.?Matthew 2:1-13
In other words, the Birth of Christ: Wise men, from the East, also
called Magi, or Three Kings of the Orient (The name used depends upon
which translation of the Bible is used), guided by the Star of
Bethlehem, paid homage to the new born Christ Child, bringing Gold,
Frankincense, and Myrrh.
7. There are many Zoroastrian-Judaism-Christian associations. In
Paragraph 6 above, New Testament verses have been quoted which state
that Zoroastrian Magi witnessed fulfillment of prophecies regarding
the birth of Christ. In the Old Testament, in the Book of Daniel verse
9:24, there are prophecies regarding the martyrdom of Christ:
?Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make
reconciliation for inequity, and to bring in everlasting
righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint
the most Holy.?Daniel 9:24
7.1. If we assume that a ?Week of the Lord? has the same length as a
human week, the prophecies of Daniel are meaningless. However,
Biblical scholars agree that one Lord?s week = seven human years. In
fact, the Bible tells us in two separate chapters that:
?The day of the Lord is one year.?Numbers 14:34
?I have appointed thee each day for a year.?Ezekiel 4:6
7.2. If we convert 70 Lord?s Weeks into human years:
If: 1 Lord?s Day = 1 human yearAnd: 70 Lord?s Weeks = (70 x 7 Lord?s
Days/week) = 490 Lord?s DaysTherefore, 70 Lord?s weeks = 490 human
years
7.3. Therefore, Daniel prophesied that 490 human years would pass from
the rebuilding of Jerusalem to the martyrdom of Christ.
7.4. Given that the Third Edict of Artaxerses was issued in 457BC,
and that Christ was martyred at 33 years of age, when we add 33 + 457,
the result is 490, which is the time Christ was crucified, as foretold
by Daniel 9:24.
8. History, Jewish prophesies, and Gospel histories agree.
9.Our purpose is to find the link in Jewish or Zoroastrian scripture,
which inspired the Zoroastrian Magi to search for the King of the
Jews.
If you have further questions, please ask away. I realize this is not
an easy project.
Regards,
Gary Kerns
|
Clarification of Question by
moonman9-ga
on
11 Feb 2005 22:21 PST
Dear pafalafa,
I am starting to investigate your suggestions given in your fist letter.
I entered Dr. Molnar's site. VERY interesting! I just ordered his
book, "The Star of Bethlehem."
You asked: "Or are you only looking for
Jewish/Zoroastrian sources that pre-date the bith of Christ?"
Yes, I think that's where we should start. I find it interesting that
Daniel, who was a captive in the service of the Zoroastrian kings,
propesized of the coming of Christ. Also there were the prophesies of
Zoroastrian scriptures, that surely Daniel must have heard about. I'm
don't mean to infer that Daniel derived his inspiration from the
Zorastrian texts. I just find it interesting that two sets of
prophesies from two different religions all agreed on one event.
I'll keep you informed as I carry on. I notice that it is difficult
for the formatting of my WORD documents don't survive when I send them
to this site. Is there a way I can send attachments to you?
Regards,
Gary Kerns
|
Request for Question Clarification by
pafalafa-ga
on
12 Feb 2005 17:54 PST
Hello Gary.
Thanks for your follow-up notes. I will need a bit of time to think
about your comments, and to explore available resources. It may be a
few days before you hear back from, at which time I'll let you know if
I've found anything significant to add to the information I provided
already.
Speaking of which -- I'm glad you found Dr. Molnar's site to be
useful. It certainly seems he is in agreement with others who have
suggested that the "star" was actually an combination of astrological
events that would have been readily noted by scholars of the skies,
but may not have been apparent to the casual observer.
By the way, there isn't any convenient way to post information here
other than to cut and paste text into the box provided.
Unfortunately, the formatting doesn't always hold.
I'll get back to you in a few days,
Dave aka pafalafa-ga (no significance to the name, really, just a silly moniker).
|
Clarification of Question by
moonman9-ga
on
12 Feb 2005 19:43 PST
Dear Dave Pafalafa,
Your surname sounds as if you are from South India. Is that so? I'm
married to a girl, who was born in Tanzania, but her parents are from
Mumby, India.
Your comment: "It certainly seems he is in agreement with others who have
suggested that the "star" was actually an combination of astrological
events that would have been readily noted by scholars of the skies,
but may not have been apparent to the casual observer."
As a coincidence, in 1993 I happened to attend a Christmas program in
the planetarium of the University of Johannesburg, South Africa. They
actually showed the condition of the sky over Bethlehem at the
approximate time of Christ's birth. It was quite obvious that the ony
prominent events in the sky at that time was alignment of the planets,
not a stars.
I'm busy investigating the other sources you gave me (the
"Tetrabiblos" of Claudius Ptolemy and the "Mathesis on astrology" of
Firmicus Maternus. Some HEAVY reading!
Good luck on your side!
Gary Kerns
|
Clarification of Question by
moonman9-ga
on
13 Feb 2005 17:08 PST
Dave Pafalafa,
During our conversations here I have been able to whittle down to what
I realy need.
I find that I have all the Jewish prophecy material I need, on hand.
What I'm lacking is Zoroastrian prophecy material from sources prior
to the birth of Christ.
I have collected the following Zoroastrian quotes, but unfortunately
they refer to Baha'u'llah Founder of the Baha'i Faith:
Quote Nr. 1:
?He shall be the victorious Benefactor (Saoshyant ) by name and
World-Renovator(Astavat-Ereta) by name. He is Benefactor because he
will benefit the entire physical world; he is World-Renovator because
he will establish the physical living existence indestructible. He
will oppose the evil of the progeny of the biped and withstand the
enmity produced by the faithful.?--Avesta, Farvardin Yast 13.129
Quote Nr. 2:
?When a thousand two hundred and some years have passed from the
inception of the religion of the Arabian, and the overthrow of the
kingdom of Iran and the degradation of the followers of my religion, a
descendant of the Iranian kings will be raised up as a
Prophet.?--Dinkird (Dave, do you know the chapter and verse number of
this quote?
So, I guess that's it. I need Zoroastrian quotes which foretell the
birth of Christ.
I hope you will have better results than I have.
Gary Kerns
|
Clarification of Question by
moonman9-ga
on
14 Feb 2005 16:18 PST
Dave,I just came across this. Just now I CAN'T FOLLOW THE THREAD. I
hope you can follow it.
"We know that Zarathushtra proclaimed a series or group of saviors or
'bringers of benefit' who would 'heal the world' and 'make existence
brilliant' (Hom Yasht 30:9), and that he believed himself to head this
group. Similarly, although nearly one thousand years later, as their
exile drew to a close the Jewish people began to develop a belief in
messiah-type figures who would re-establish their fortunes. Initially
it seems that any number of such figures was anticipated, and so the
messianic title could be granted to anyone who was thought to be sent
by Yahweh, and that such figures were not necessarily to be born of
Jewish blood - hence Cyrus' designation as the 'Lord's anointed'. Over
time this messianic character began to shed his humanity and become
almost divine, eventually merging into a 'son of man' figure as
expressed in the writings of Daniel, who speaks of one on whom 'was
conferred rule, honor and kingship... (which)... will never come to an
end' (Daniel 7:14). There is in this 'kingdom' more than a passing
resemblance to the Zoroastrian frashokereti."
- Peter Clark, Zoroastrianism, An Introduction to an Ancient Faith, p. 154
Regards,
Gary Kerns
|
Request for Question Clarification by
pafalafa-ga
on
16 Feb 2005 19:49 PST
Gary,
Hello again. I just wanted to let you know that I'm finding the
Zorastrian texts fairly tought sledding.
With no real familiarty with them, it's proving very unwieldy to try
and find texts that would be relevant to your question. nor have I
found much by other students of Zorastrian scripture.
I'm afraid I don't have enough to offer you an answer to your
question. Perhaps another researcher will be able to dive in and take
a crack at it though.
All the best in your journey....
pafalafa-ga
|
Clarification of Question by
moonman9-ga
on
28 Feb 2005 22:43 PST
Great! I've been able to research most of your suggestions. The
teachings of Zoroaster, linking up with other religions is
fascinating!
I'm still looking for Zoroastrian prophecies. I found one that is
often quoted originating from the Denkard (Dinkrid?):
?When a thousand two hundred and some years have passed from the
inception of the religion of the Arabian, and the overthrow of the
kingdom of Iran and the degradation of the followers of my religion, a
descendant of the Iranian kings will be raised up as a
Prophet.?--Dinkird
Can you with your super-searcher find the Chapter and Verse where this
is found? Note that the words may be different but the meaning should
be the same (The quote may not come from the Dinkird).
Regards,
moonman9-ga
|
Request for Question Clarification by
pafalafa-ga
on
01 Mar 2005 13:11 PST
Gary,
While looking into your latest request, I came across some language
from the early scripture that may well address your original question
about an extraordinary astronomical/astrological event:
-----
Furthermore, God, in order to give joy to the good creation, had, from
the beginning of the world, created, in pure and luminous essence, the
holy Zartosht as an associate of the Amahaspands, endowed with all
their good qualities, thoughtful, and fully attentive. And his essence
was made in the Spiritual World fitted for (the task of) proselytism,
and of propagating the religion throughout the world. And at the right
time he was sent down to the world as a man, invested with the earthly
body. At that time (i.e. when the pure Spirit of Zartosht entered this
tenement of clay), a superior kind of light and effulgence began to
flash forth from his house, through the medium of a star (in the
heavens). And he was born of his father Pourushasp -- a descendant of
(the Peshdadian King) Jamshed -- and of his mother Dukdaub. Further,
when he (the prophet) was born, there was a light like the blaze of
fire-a glare and a twilight --irradiating from his house in all
directions, high in the air, and to great distance on the earth, as a
token of his greatness and exaltation.
-----
What do you think....?
|
Here is a site here with an extensive collection of Zorastrian scriptures:
[Avesta -- Zoroastrian Archives]
http://www.avesta.org/avesta.html
Zoroaster (Zarathushtra; Zartosht the Spitaman) is considered to have
lived in Persia (modern day Iran), with dates suggested as early as
12th century BCE or as recently as 6th century BCE. The literature of
his revealed faith has undergone several language shifts during the
passing centuries. Today the practice of this faith in Iran may be
extinguished, but in India we find an ethnic minority, Parsees,
closely identified with this religion.
The most ancient Zoroastrian scriptures bear a structural and
linguistic relationship to the Vedic scriptures, though the cosmology
of heaven and hell, angels and demons, and resurrection of the dead to
a final judgement certainly establish a theological relationship to
Western religions.
The Zoroastrian faith tells us of a good creator Ohrmazd (Ahura Mazda)
whose enemy Ahriman (Angra Mainya) is an evil co-creator of this
world. This dualism is an apparent contrast with the thorough
monotheism of Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. It finds an echo or
even perhaps remnant, however, in certain Gnostic writings, in
Manicheanism (Mani being a 3rd century CE reformer/heretic of the
Zoroastrian religion), and in the figure of Satan or Shaitan (Arabic
for "adversary"; see Job 1:6), but a deeper understanding of the
matter is perhaps to found by viewing Zoroaster as a reformer of the
religious conceptions of his time:
[Zoroastrianism -- A vanishing Faith?]
http://www.vohuman.org/Article/Zoroastrianism%20--%20A%20vanishing%20Faith.htm
"The gods and goddesses of the ancient pantheon were representative of
cosmic and nature forces, broadly divided into the class of
creator-gods or asuras and, in keeping with their war-like
requirements, of warrior deities or devas. Whereas in India the former
were deemed to have become aloof and had been demonized, in the
Iranian world it was to be the latter class of the devas who were to
suffer that fate. It was Zarathushtra who brought about this major
theological reversal."
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
Many of the extant works of Zoroastrian faith are compilations and
redactions of earlier works, presenting a challenge to distiguish a
quotation preserved from ancient tradition from some later
commentary/interpretation of it.
Consider for example the following verse:
[Zand-i Vohuman Yasht, Chapter 3]
http://www.avesta.org/pahlavi/vohuman3.html
(trans. E. W. West, Sacred Books of the East, vol. 5, Oxford Univ. Press, 1897)
15. 'That a sign may come to the earth, the night when that prince is
born, a star falls from the sky; when that prince is born the star
shows a signal.'
The surrounding text doesn't much help me to tie this "signal" to an
event in Judea, though verse 18 does seem to mention a conjunction of
Jupiter and Venus. However the text does point (as the translator's
use of single quotes above attests) to the presence of older quoted
material embedded in a matrix of later commentary and interpretation.
This leads to a couple of closing comments. First, it is possible
that later Zoroastrian followers have read into the earliest seam of
their scriptures, e.g. the Gathas or Hymns of Zoroaster, an
interpretation of the birth(s) of a "World Savior" (Saoshyant) from a
virgin. Tracing the chronology of ideas in this case would be
difficult, though I believe a worthwhile scholarly pursuit.
Second, we should recognize a contrasting parallel with the Hebrew
scriptures. There ancient commentary was added was in Aramaic, and
the biblical Hebrew has been transmitted with great fidelity, partly
owing to this "accident".
regards, mathtalk-ga |
