Is there evidence or some subjective consensus that "born again
Christians" are nicer:  nicer as individuals than they were before;
nicer than other people?
The " " are for emphasis and not to suggest that I question the
experience or the sincerely of the persons.
What do I mean with "nicer"?  More charitable, forgiving, helpful,
ethical, ..., something noticed by other persons in day-to-day
personal and business relationships.

Since I don't live in America, I have no contact with such persons (or
haven't noticed in Europe, if I have had).
It would seem to me that it would be difficult for a hard-bitten  -
maybe hard biting -  politician or business leader to demonstrate such
a change in his or her professional life, but I don't want to malign
or prejudge anyone, hence my question.
Reference to websites would be very appreciated, but comments could
suggest if there is any such consensus.
Thanks, Myoarin

---

Clarification of Question by myoarin-ga on 23 Feb 2005 12:48 PST

Greetings and thanks.  Keep up the great response.  I didn't really
expect a www reference and really appreciate the "professionals'
input.  Where's Cynthia?
Myoarin

---

Clarification of Question by myoarin-ga on 25 Feb 2005 10:25 PST

Thanks again.
I understand that this kind of question tends to lead a discussion of
other things, which is also very interesting but tangental to the
question.  And I now (thanks) recognize that I am asking something
about maybe a third of Americans, so  that is "closer to home" for
more people than I had realized.  I didn't and don't want to incite
denegration, etc., but was perhaps a bit naive not to anticipate this
problem.  Sorry.  And since there are (you are) so many, I guess it is
rather unlikely that such a large segment of the population can really
be outstandingly different.
Nonetheless, I am still very interested in responses - maybe with
tempered comment - from others:  "Yes, my experience is that born
agains are "nicer" individuals than they were before/ are "nicer" than
others," ... or not.

And I hope others also find the results interesting.
Does anyone have other websites that apply.  Barna and the responses
are easily worth the money, but ...
Sincerely, Myoarin

---

Clarification of Question by myoarin-ga on 27 Feb 2005 14:29 PST

Alex101 has posted a comment that suggested a clarification of the question.
It follows Alex's comment as coment no. 17.
Myoarin

Well, I know a born again Christian who owns several new and used car
lots, has a gigantic cross on the side of his building, constantly
tells people how religious he is, and makes a LOT of money.

New cars are a terrible investment (they are a wasting asset which
many poor people go into debt to buy) and tend to keep a lot of
Americans poor, while used car salesmen are widely suspected of being
less than honorable.

I grew up with him and personally know that he has violated the letter
of at least three of the Ten Commandments, hates homosexuals, and
ridicules other religious beliefs.

I leave any conclusions to you but I never turn my back on him.

In the U.S., when someone says they are born again, many people
shudder. They expect that a "born again" should not have any faults,
and therefore see every fault in a Christian as evidence that they are
hypocrites. "Born agains" also have the reputation of trying to
convert everyone to Christianity.

All of this is a matter of not understanding the religion, in my opinion.

Kriswrite

Should that read "well deserved" reputation?

Of course I don't denegrate all born agains, but when someone believes
they are the chosen of god and everyone else will burn for eternity,
it tends to give them a slightly slanted view of how they should treat
other people.

Remember, I am only responding to the actual question of the client
which was about "perceptions".

You may think you understand my religious beliefs but I am just
commenting on a question.

I think most people, even those who hold Christianity in contempt,
would admit that former Watergate conspirator Charles Colson is a
better person since he became a Christian. Other examples are not
difficult to find.

My perception of 'born again' Christians is that they are all very
good people BUT they practise their belief on a purely emotional
level. Like, if it feels good, its right. But what does the Bible say
about it.
First Timothy 2;3,4 "This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our
Savior, God. 4. Whose will is that all sorts of men should be saved
and come to an ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE of truth. 5. For there is ONE God,
and ONE mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus. 6. who gave
himself a corresponding ransom for all - this is what is to be
witnessed to at its own particular times"
Throughout the New Testament, the Bible urges the reader to seek for
knowledge, and in many instances, refers to it as 'accurate
knowledge'. The above scripure is one of many that states that Jesus
is the ONLY mediator to God, his Father. And then there is Ephesians
4;4,5 "One body there is, and one spirit, even as you were called in
the one hope to which you were called, one Lord, one faith one
baptism.
Question: If the Bible states only one faith is acceptable, why are
there many. All the others must be wrong!.
Question; If Jesus is the only mediator, why is Mary used as such?
Question; If Jesus is separate from his Father, why call Mary the
mother of God.[ I really know the answer to this one, but it involves
believing in the Trinity, which of course I do not][because the Bible
says nothing about it]
I have spoken to many people who say they are born again Christians,
and have been engulfed with zeal and sincerity and a warm fuzzy
feeling. But is it accurate knowledge???

pugwashjw
My perception of 'born again' Christians is that they are all very
good people.

Not always the case. From personal experiance I have knowen some born
again christians that use it for nothing more than a mask to cover who
they really are. Weither it be that they are abusers, alcoholics or
the likes.

If they act nicer, it's just that, an act.  Behind your back (and
often to your face), they will denigrate anything about you and anyone
else that is not in keeping with what they think the world should be
like.

If some of these comments about born-again Christians were made about
persons of any other religion, there would be an outcry. Statements
that would be called bigoted hate speech if made about Jews or Muslims
are somehow acceptable if made about Christians.

While I am not surprised to see this kind of thing on Google Answers,
I am disappointed. Somehow I had expected more civility here.

Anytime you dicuss religion it will turn into a debate of sorts so the
disucssion should be expected. As the question orgiginally asked is
"Is there evidence or some subjective consensus that "born again
Christians" are nicer:  nicer as individuals than they were before;
nicer than other people?" Myoarin will get the many different aspects
from all who reply. This has nothing to do with other religions as
that is not the question that was asked. I assume you are talking
about Nelson's comments as such he is looking at the question from his
own view. And maybe all of the born again christians that he has been
associated with have been the not up to standereds so to speak. He may
just need some reassurance that not all are bad. You can not catorgize
all of the individuals out there based on a few peoples actions.

Born-again Christians are normal people just like everyone else. They
are just human beings who may be prone to anger, sadness, etc. So if
somebody expects a born-again Christian to be perfect you will be in
for a big surprise.

Anyway, since being born-again is a very personal thing it is good to
look at it at a personal level. Do you know someone who is born-again?
If so do you see any changes in him before he or she became
born-again? I know lots of born-again people and believe they changed
a lot and for the better! A lot better! :)

If you want to view a very good resource, the Barna Group takes the
pulse of born-again Christians in the United States.

http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=Home

In this website the Barna Group repeatedly start their survey with
"Among those who call themselves as born-again Christians...".
Remember it is easier to say one is born-again, it is another thing to
see it through your heart.

Greetings to all,
Pinkfreud has a fair point  - one that I hadn't anticipated being
raised, but can very well appreciate and respect from her (Hi!) many
answers and comments.  But I think David's response to it is also fair
(thanks).
And Easterangel (why that moniker?), thanks for the reference to the
Barna Group.  Very interesting, enlightening, although I hope it is
not unfair to question the statistics, since on multiple choice
questionaires on the subject of religion it will be pretty evident
which is the more "appropriate" response.  (And I wonder if the terns
used in the first page article about church priorities are all
understood in the same way by the respondents.) But I will delve
deeper in the source and pass it on to my Lutheran minister nephew
here in Germany.  And I am glad that you perceive a positive effect
among those you know.
That is what the question is about:  does it have a recognizable influence.
Thanks so far ...,  Myoarin

Easterangel is the monicker I used because at the time I started as a
Google Answers researcher, my daughter was working on a a church
pageant entitled "Easterangel". Since then I have come to adopt it
also as a commemoration to the Easter event wherein an angel announced
to Mary and Mary Magdalene that Jesus Christ has Risen!

:)

Pinkfreud, that is a fair assessment.  Let me say that I also talk
about and denigrate people (their dress, lack of grasp of grammar,
hair, etc.), but I do not make myself out to be perfect.  Some/many
(but not all, sorry if I stereotyped before) born-again Christians
have a holier-than-thou attitude, even though as pointed out above,
they are indeed normal humans with all the faults we as a species
share.  However, some/many like to portray themselves as perfect
saints.  This causes mainstream Christians and non-Christians to form
certain opinions about born-agains (perhaps that they are hypocrites
or have overinflated egos).

(For the record I am Roman Catholic, but do not practice my religion.)

Since Christians are the dominant religion in the U.S., they are open
to comments that would not be acceptable against others.  Same thing
with the way African-Americans can make certain comments against
Caucasians, but the reverse is unacceptable.  It is the bane of the
powerful in a democratic society.

Is it denigrating to compare what an organised religion does as a
practice, with what the Bible actually says?. It is only an
observation, the truthfulness of which can be checked by any
individual. Still respectfully, Pug.

Are born again Christians "nicer ?"  Or perhaps, is being a "born
again" Christian a good thing ?

It sounds a little odd, and I think the term is often misused, so
let's start with what it means.  These are two passages but they are a
good place for now:

John 3

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he
enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus
answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of
water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of
the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be
born again."

Also, 1 Peter

"23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible,
by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."


So we're talking about being born of the Spirit.  In my mind, as
limited as it may be, I think of it like being born again.  However,
it is a spiritual thing.  If you see people wearing Christianity on
their sleeves, proclaiming themselves to be the next best thing to
God, but acting in bad, unethical ways, I think it's an easy call to
conclude that they are probably just using Christianity as a facade. 
In my mind, that is taking or carrying the Lord's name in vain and it
is terrible.  The most terrible part is that it convinces people that
Christianity is a bad thing.  The logic is flawed, just because some
people do X doesn't mean everyone does X, but the perception still
pursuades.  Many bad deeds have been done in the name of Christianity
and God.

One problem is that you won't see millions of good deeds, inspired by
the Spirit, and one's new found connection with it - being "born
again," because most of those deeds are not made public.  Their is a
real aversion among many to doing good deeds publicly.  Personally,
I'm uncomfortable about it too.  There's a debate between people who
read the part of the Bible that talks about letting our light shine
among the world and think we should let people see our good deeds and
those who read the part that says to do your good deeds privately
because those who receive their reward on Earth have already received
it and won't get it in Heaven.  Obviously, that's loose paraphrasing
but I hope you get the idea.  That's one reason you'll see donations
sometimes made by "Anonymous."  So, I'm not surprised that the
attention seeking people who proclaim what good Christians they are,
even while they behave badly, are more visible.

I can tell you that there are legions of born again Christians out
there who do good deeds every day.  From the woman who puts change in
a stranger's expired parking meter to the man who donates a kidney to
a stranger, they live among us every day.  I know that man and many
like him.  I know people who live in remote areas, having given up
rewarding careers, to care for orphans for years.  I know bone marrow
donors and people who try to help kids in slums.  You won't see them
much but they're there.  Why do they do it ?  For the ones I'm talking
about, a belief in God and a desire to live lives that glorify God. 
For when one has been "born again" of the Spirit, it can't be faked. 
It's a matter of the heart.  It's a matter of the Soul.  Some people
will try to use God to try to fool people for their own designs.  I
hate that they deceive and alienate so many but they're there. 
However, being "born again," in my mind, whether someone identifyies
themself that way or not, involves self sacrifice, not self
aggrandizement.  You can spot them if you look hard but they won't be
the ones jumping up and down for your attention.  Though I really do
mean to say that without disparaging those who genuinely do good deeds
and allow people to know they did them.  As I said, I'm conflicted on
that point.

I guess my short answer would be "yes."

Alex, thanks, and I liked your comment and its appreciation for such
wonderful people.  It also point out a shortcoming in my question. 
The people you have described exist everywhere, also in other cultures
and in all times  - too few of them surely.  Many of them now may
consider themselves "born again Christians", and many others, seeing
what good they are doing, may consider them such, perhaps rightfully,
even if they don't themselves, and/but  - world wide -  they cannot
all be, being Muslims and Jews and Buddhist and Hindus, or, indeed,
agnostics, just wonderfully good individuals helping others.

The shortcoming in my question, and this gets into the sticky area of
how to express it non-offensively:  seeking perceptions of persons who
profess to be "born again"  - with my original proviso that I am not
questioning their experience or sincerety.

I will try to copy the above and add it as a clarification.
Thanks again,
Myoarin

Perceptions of those who profess to be born again Christians...

I like your question to a large extent because it asks, in my view,
about a genuine contradiction.  From my perspective, born again
Christians should be some of the most self sacrificing, decent human
beings anyone could hope to know.  However, I am convinced that the
public perception is very different.

That is because of, I think, many of those who profess it and the way
they behave.  The car dealer mentioned and others like him who claim
rightiousness for themselves in an attempt to insulate themselves from
legitimate criticism.  People will remember those who shout loudly,
who make bold claims, and especially those who claim some aspect of
superiority to the group.  Groups hate deviation from the norm and
they hate the prideful.  Some will tell you that they know you are
going to hell while they know they are going to heaven.  It's
offensive and they can't know unless they are God.  Such people are
reprehensible but they are remembered.

One example, perhaps, of a self proclaimed born again Christian who
created a positive impression:  Former President Jimmy Carter.  I
think he was a good, decent man who, in my personal opinion, was a
terrible President.  Even so, you will find some positive impressions
among the negative.

My last point is that, among Evangelical Christians, I think you will
find that the impression is predominately positive.  There's a lot of
philosophical conflict in the US right now.  The US has become more
conservative, and more Church-going, as the population demographics
have aged.  This should have the effect of improving the overall
impression of other conservative types while the more liberal types
will become more vehement out of frustration.  Just my thoughts.

Born agains where I live in North Dakota: I think they are lonely
people who just want to be accepted. All the ones I know are very well
dressed! They wear a lot of Jesus things and are very fashion
concious. They always have nice cell phones too.
I don't have a very good impression of them I think they are mainly
just people with emotional problems and it bothers me how they have
nicer things than most people usually and then say gay people are
evil.

for Overclocked. It is the Bible that says homosexuality and the
practice of it unacceptable. Romans 1;24-27, 1Tim 1;9-11, Jude 7. But
God WILL forgive anyone the moment they give up doing what is wrong. [
Psalm 103;14]

Thanks, Overclocked and Pugwash, I should have thought of that,
myself, that a strict belief in the Word of the Bible on some subjects
can be in immediate conflict with attitudes  (to try to use a neutral
word) that are accepted in a significant part of the population and
are indeed protected by law  - and probably not only homosexuality. 
Kind of makes for strife in the community: can't deny anyone the right
to their beliefs and to express them.
Can one answer that with:  
"Judge not, that ye be not judged." (Sermon on the Mount)?

But I don't want this to become an exchange of Bible verses.
I appreciated your comments and any others posted.
Myoarin

I don't think it can be answered with that as that verse is, I think,
an admonition against hypocrasy rather than a direction to refrain
from making any judgments whatsoever.  While only God can judge a
person, people must, and should, judge actions all the time.  Even if
we never make any kind of judgment about what anybody does, we still
cannot avoid the final judgment.  Free Will, for example, would make
no sense if people could not make judgments about actions, theirs and
others'.  Whether any particular behavior deserves censure is another
matter completely.

However, that does highlight one reason people sometimes react
negatively to fundamentalist Christians.  Fundamentalists will stick
to the text.  If people don't like what the text says, they will tend
to hold it against those who believe it and say so.  In this case,
Leviticus 18:22.  Many people will find that to be "judgmental."

Alex101, 
you're right as I learned immediately after posting that quotation and
using it for a search, and got a sermon on the following Bible verse.
Better than the one in church this morning, but the Bach cantata was good.

I speak from personal experience.  I am a born again christian, who
was once an agnostic.  As a christian, the Holy Spirit works in you
and gives you a heightened sense of right and wrong.  Christians, as
the Bible says, are known by the fruit the produce- the fruits of the
Holy Spirit, are listed in Galations 5:22-23
FAITHFULNESS, LOVE,
JOY, PEACE, KINDNESS, 
SELF-CONTROL, PATIENCE, 
GOODNESS, AND GENTLENESS. 
If these are not evident in your life, then you must question if you
are a christian.  The Holy Spirit works to sanctify us.

EXAMPLES:  

1. SERIAL KILLER- David Berkowitz see article at
http://www.scionofzion.com/doubting.htm    He is a changed man!
2. HANDEL, of Handel's Messiah became a christian while writing this
wonderful song.
3.  Emperor Constantine's conversion to christianity definitley saved
christian lives.
4. John Newton the SLAVE TRADER was saved and wrote AMAZING GRACE !
5. Rapist and murderer Stephan Morin - Kidnap victim Margy Mayfield
tells how she brought Stephan to salvation.  (Available at Dobson's
Focus on the family)
6. Christian based programs in Texas jails have proven to decrease
prisoner rescidivism rates.
7. Ask any born again christian- they are more Christlike than before.
(I know some christians that struggle with evidencing fruits of the
Spirit, but they will attest that they have progressed through the
nudging of the Holy Spirit.

Being an agnostic, I know talk of the Holy Spirit sounds very
"emotional" and not logical.  I tell you, I would never have believed
it, except the change happened to me overnight, literally overnight-
and unlike some previous posts, christians do not think they are
better than everyone else, on the contrary, we know that God has
extended grace to us that we do not deserve, and we proselytize
because we want to share in the wonderful gift that we feel/know God
has given us.  And the closer we get to know Jesus, the more
inadequate we feel, and the more thankful we are for HIS GRACE.

Go to a a church where people are carrying Bibles into the church,
listen to the Worship singing and tell me you don't hear joy and love.
 I have been to WESTMINSTER in London- the choir's singing was
unforgettable, but you feel a notable absence of the joy of Christ.

Dear utmac-ga,
Thank you for your comment and including the historic figures whose
conversion and subesequent good works can be seen with better
persepctive.

A real problem with the question posed is that we do not know the
previous condition of the people involved, even if we have seen their
actions. Every one of the 10 commandments can be broken inside one's
mind as well as thru actions. (See www.needgod.com for more).

Another flaw with most criticism of Christians is that they are made
by people who believe that you get to Heaven by good works so they
look to gauge a Christian's works. Being Born Again comes by realizing
that one has fallen terribly short of God's standard (the Law a.k.a.
the 10 Commandments) and is guilty and deserving of punishment (Hell).
This realization should lead to an incredible humility where we
realize that we need God's forgiveness. God is gracious to grant
forgiveness but only to those who sincerely ask for it.  Part of that
sincerity is a desire (though not necessarily an ability) to avoid sin
in the future.

The humble seek God's forgiveness but the the proud defend themselves
as being a "good person."  One needs only to break the Law once to be
guilty, regardless of what charitable acts or compliance to God's Law
that we perform before or after the infraction.

Thanks for your comment, Needgoddotcom.
From what you write, I would surmise that Born again Christian know
within themselves that they sinners before, although their overt
actions may not have lead others to think of them as such.  Of course,
there are some, like GWB, who obviously gave up bad habits, but I
could imagine that there are also some with their newly found stricter
sense of morals who might seem holier-than-thou and less charitable
towards others and their weaknesses  - only maybe only perceived
weakness.
But as I tried to emphasize in my clarifications, I don't want to step
on anyone's toes, and I appreciate that other commenters have been
circumspect in suggesting that this could be the case.

Myoarin